Top Law Schools

stratocophic wrote:

PLATONiC wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:

reverendt wrote:Why do people feel that the only way to gauge a school's value is by its biglaw placement?

Because biglaw placement roughly parallels job placement in all desirable jobs.

But to what percentage of WUSTL graduates get legitimate private sector jobs that are not biglaw??? Is the whole "midsize law firm" employment prospects previously mentioned a fluke?

WUSTL places a lot into midwestern cities that don't have (many or any) NLJ 250 firms, but do have firms that pay pretty well. A guy in the WUSTL 2013 thread did some calcs and came out with something like 60% of the last reported class making 6 figures or 90k or something (factoring in % reporting and all of that jazz). Probably not as good ITE, but keep in mind that NLJ 250 firm locations skew towards NY, DC, Chicago, LA, and maybe secondaries like Boston. Who's ahead of WashU in the NLJ250 rankings? Schools that are either in those markets or place almost solely into those markets (ahem, Fordham). However, what DF just said. Going off of TLS conventional wisdom, I don't think I'd pay sticker or close lower than T12ish/maybe Vandy (but again, I turned that down so no, I wouldn't).

I'm curious, though, how well the T14 places in midsize firms in comparison to WUSTL. What I'm in search of is the best job prospects; not necessarily "biglaw," but just a school that will get me a god damn associate position as long as I get median. How much better is Cornell/GULC at accomplishing this than WUSTL???

One last thing that I want to know about WUSTL concerns rankings.

When I look at the T20 rankings, I see hardly any room for WUSTL to get its rank up to #18 or even #17; virtually impossible, it seems. I'm more convinced that it could lose its coveted #19 and get pushed back to the 20s.

When people suggest that WUSTL might be able to "get its act together," do they expect WUSTL to simply maintain their current USNWR rankings while at the same time enhancing their employment numbers? Or do they think that it's possible for WUSTL to start out-ranking USC? (Vandy, UCLA, and UT seem impossible to beat as of now...).

I can totally see GWU kicking WUSTL in the ass in the future...

PLATONiC wrote:One last thing that I want to know about WUSTL concerns rankings.

When I look at the T20 rankings, I see hardly any room for WUSTL to get its rank up to #18 or even #17; virtually impossible, it seems. I'm more convinced that it could lose its coveted #19 and get pushed back to the 20s.

When people suggest that WUSTL might be able to "get its act together," do they expect WUSTL to simply maintain their current USNWR rankings while at the same time enhancing their employment numbers? Or do they think that it's possible for WUSTL to start out-ranking USC? (Vandy, UCLA, and UT seem impossible to beat as of now...).

I can totally see GWU kicking WUSTL in the ass in the future...

Facepalm city...

Dude, the rankings don't mean a thing when it comes to a few spots. So what if WUSTL drops to 21 or 22? It makes no difference to me, or you, or to anyone.

Also, your analysis is plain wrong. WUSTL is slowly distancing itself from its traditional Midwestern peers (in terms of US News, not in terms of employment numbers). They are also gaining on USC. If anything, they will jump USC in the next few years, not drop.

But seriously, do not concern yourself with petty BS like a spot or two in the rankings. GW went from 20 to 28 and back in just 3 years, yet it was the same school the whole time.

You're totally correct. I'll stop being short-sighted. t.t.

romothesavior wrote:

PLATONiC wrote:One last thing that I want to know about WUSTL concerns rankings.

When I look at the T20 rankings, I see hardly any room for WUSTL to get its rank up to #18 or even #17; virtually impossible, it seems. I'm more convinced that it could lose its coveted #19 and get pushed back to the 20s.

When people suggest that WUSTL might be able to "get its act together," do they expect WUSTL to simply maintain their current USNWR rankings while at the same time enhancing their employment numbers? Or do they think that it's possible for WUSTL to start out-ranking USC? (Vandy, UCLA, and UT seem impossible to beat as of now...).

I can totally see GWU kicking WUSTL in the ass in the future...

Facepalm city...

Dude, the rankings don't mean a thing when it comes to a few spots. So what if WUSTL drops to 21 or 22? It makes no difference to me, or you, or to anyone.

Also, your analysis is plain wrong. WUSTL is slowly distancing itself from its traditional Midwestern peers (in terms of US News, not in terms of employment numbers). They are also gaining on USC. If anything, they will jump USC in the next few years, not drop.

But seriously, do not concern yourself with petty BS like a spot or two in the rankings. GW went from 20 to 28 and back in just 3 years, yet it was the same school the whole time.

Hey now, don't sell us short. USC's going to be either #19 or #18b within 3 years if UCI starts poaching USC/UCLA kids. WUSTL's rep scores are rising; they were within 1 point of USC this year. Won't make a difference in the short term (mid-to-long term it might), but it'll at least shut TLS trolls up about how WUSTL buys rankings/doesn't deserve their spot... or else it'll just cause people to call USC a TTT as well, which will make me just as gleeful because I am a spiteful person with a love of schadenfreude.

I did say we are gaining on USC and are possibly going to pass them, perhaps as early as next year.

romothesavior wrote:I did say we are gaining on USC and are possibly going to pass them, perhaps as early as next year.

The main thrust was going to be something about rankings playing a role in reputation changes over time (in this case, a positive one), but I got sidetracked by rubbing my hands together and cackling at the thought of a competitor meeting with misfortune and I ended up rambling. I'd be the perfect gunner if I wasn't so lazy; you and nyyankees have nothing to fear.

to a very large extent, though, aren't the rankings meaningless? imagine...let's say WUStL jumps to 13 next year, edging out out both Cornell and GULC. Do we all honestly think that employers would act any differently? I think this all gets back to the delusion that rankings are the tail that wags the employment dog. They're not.

I do think WUStL has gained momentum, for whatever that is worth, but firms know what schools they recruit at and hiring preferences, unlike a school's rank, move at a glacial pace. Maybe an upward trend would favorably impact a school 5 or 10 years from now.

miamiman wrote:to a very large extent, though, aren't the rankings meaningless? imagine...let's say WUStL jumps to 13 next year, edging out out both Cornell and GULC. Do we all honestly think that employers would act any differently? I think this all gets back to the delusion that rankings are the tail that wags the employment dog. They're not.

I do think WUStL has gained momentum, for whatever that is worth, but firms know what schools they recruit at and hiring preferences, unlike a school's rank, move at a glacial pace. Maybe an upward trend would favorably impact a school 5 or 10 years from now.

Wouldn't happen, as we both know. The jump in rep scoring would have to be astronomical. Your second statement is the thing that, if things continue as they are, would actually occur. There's at least some small degree of feedback involved, and it's effects would tend to improve the school's lot as it drug things like rep scores and employment statistics (slowly, perhaps even kicking and screaming, but drug nonetheless) upward. Of course, a person would have to be crazy to go anywhere over somewhere else because of prognostication. Go with the expectation that things won't change/will only go downhill from here, future applicants. The predicting of lollipops and sunshine comes after you've already made your bed.

miamiman wrote:to a very large extent, though, aren't the rankings meaningless? imagine...let's say WUStL jumps to 13 next year, edging out out both Cornell and GULC. Do we all honestly think that employers would act any differently? I think this all gets back to the delusion that rankings are the tail that wags the employment dog. They're not.

I do think WUStL has gained momentum, for whatever that is worth, but firms know what schools they recruit at and hiring preferences, unlike a school's rank, move at a glacial pace. Maybe an upward trend would favorably impact a school 5 or 10 years from now.

If you'll note my first response to this whole rankings discussion, I said that ranking fluctuations from year to year are meaningless (and I made your same point... what if WUSTL drops 10 spots next year? Will anyone really care?)

Rankings are only useful as a rough guide, and the further down the rankings you go, the less they matter. Platonic, don't concern yourself too much with rankings.

Also, I thought you wanted to go to UVA to be with that sexy male professor?

Have any schools jumped or dropped significantly in the rankings in the last 10 years? Did employment outcomes change dramatically?

Im curious. I have no idea what the answer is to that question.

miamiman wrote:Have any schools jumped or dropped significantly in the rankings in the last 10 years? Did employment outcomes change dramatically?

Im curious. I have no idea what the answer is to that question.

WUSTL was in the 30s 10 years ago and in the 40s or 50s 15 years ago, I believe. I assume that their employment outcomes changed at a rate slightly lagging that of the rankings changes because, c'mon, it's a midwestern school competing for Chicago... and it isn't in Chicago. I sincerely doubt that their NLJ hiring was at its current level back then, and ditto for the placement in NY/DC, but I could be wrong. I'm sure there are at least a few others that have made similar strides, but I couldn't identify them. W&L (I think? Maybe W&M? I get those confused frequently) has been somewhat on the decline in the USNWR recently, but I dunno if any differences in hiring have been noted yet.

PLATONiC wrote:

ec2xs wrote:WUSTL has a great reputation amongst midsize firms. They focus more on midsize firms than most of the schools with similar ranking.

Ahhh, I see; does the entire NLJ250 consist of large-size firms (relative to the mid-size firm that you suggest a lot of WUSTL grads end up at)? Where did you find this information?

The NLJ250 is the 250 largest firms in the US, that's all it stands for, so by its nature, these ARE the largest firms in the country. You should also note while doing your research that the ABA reports that something like 80% of the lawyers working in this country work in firms of 50 or less employees (not just lawyers), so only a very small number of overall lawyers actually work for the NLJ250 firms. Its just that because they are so large and the nature of legal hiring for these firms being what it is (OCI, summer SA) its the easiest to track and get numbers for by prospective law students. It should not however, be used to gage ones chances of landing a legal job because most lawyers will never work for a NLJ250 firm in the first place.

miamiman wrote:Have any schools jumped or dropped significantly in the rankings in the last 10 years? Did employment outcomes change dramatically?

Im curious. I have no idea what the answer is to that question.

They have, and no such swings in placement occured. But, the swings have all been T18+, where rank is irrelevant.

Fordam has the best placement outside of the top 18, but its 30 something.

Desert Fox wrote:

miamiman wrote:Have any schools jumped or dropped significantly in the rankings in the last 10 years? Did employment outcomes change dramatically?

Im curious. I have no idea what the answer is to that question.

(1)They have, and no such swings in placement occured. (2) But, the swings have all been T18+, where rank is irrelevant.
Fordam has the best placement outside of the top 18, but its 30 something.

Supporting evidence for both statement 1) and 2)?

miamiman wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:

miamiman wrote:Have any schools jumped or dropped significantly in the rankings in the last 10 years? Did employment outcomes change dramatically?

Im curious. I have no idea what the answer is to that question.

(1)They have, and no such swings in placement occured. (2) But, the swings have all been T18+, where rank is irrelevant.
Fordam has the best placement outside of the top 18, but its 30 something.

Supporting evidence for both statement 1) and 2)?

1) Fordham, GW, IUB

2) Compare USNews ranking to placement data. It doesn't match up below T18. Everything is uber regional.

miamiman wrote:Have any schools jumped or dropped significantly in the rankings in the last 10 years? Did employment outcomes change dramatically?

Im curious. I have no idea what the answer is to that question.

I don't know the answer to your question. But here is my hunch based on what I have seen. The vast majority of lawyers pay zero attention to the US news rankings once they finish law school (with the exception that they might look up their own school or hear about its rank through an alumni e-mail). The largest firms of course do, because well they have a dedicated hiring or recruiting staff to stay on top of these things and actually go to schools to do OCI and such.

But again, as I said above, most lawyers will never actually work in these firms anyway. What lawyers do pay attention to is people they know from a school and the outreach a school does to the legal community. A good carear services office that is linked into the legal community in a city like Chicago can do more for the schools placement than rankings alone could do. With good connections with firms your placement will go up, your peer rep will go up, and thus your ranking will go up. Its not unlike Making Rain in a law firm, a school that places allot of focus on cultivating relationships with firms and employers in their target markets can do wonders for a schools overall ranking.

I can say that my own school, Denver, was I think a t3 15 years ago or so and for the last seven I think has been in the T2 moving between a high of 70 (I think) to like a low of 88 and all around in there (including being named the 9th best part-time program last year). Its done nothing to change the local perception of the school, the same firms that have all ways hired from DU still hire from there, and I doubt any firms that never did when it was a T3 started to when it was 70.

The school is regional and has strong regional connections and would stay the same even if it dropped out of the t2. Local employers just don't care about the national rankings enough for the change to matter that much on who they hire or not. Out of state I have no idea, since I never looked for or worked out of state. But here it would not matter and most lawyers I know could not even tell you what DU or CU is ranked (well those with a few years out of law school who are the people who actually hire law students). National ranking just isn't part of the calculus for local hiring since the vast majority of the lawyers in the state have come from either DU or CU and they have both been around for 100 years.

Would I be justified in walking away from this thread while thinking that WUSTL will actually end up getting their act together??

Matthies wrote:Long post

I agree to some degree. I know CSO's get a bad rap a lot of times, but I do think they can make a difference for those "good but not great" schools. The higher ranked schools can rely on their brand alone (I mean really, almost every firm is going to hire from the Columbias, NYUs, Michigans, etc.), but schools outside of the T14 have to hustle to make connections to bring in firms. In the midst of this recession, WUSTL has actually added a lot of new firms to their OCI. If you look at the NALP directory, they have a lot more firms doing OCI than many of their peers, and a lot of that is due to Dean Spivey and the work of the CSO in the last few years. (And this isn't just OCI... they've also got a really big small/mid-law firm recruiting program and they've gotten tons of firms from all over the Midwest to participate in that). Will that lead to higher employment numbers? I have no idea. But I do think a good CSO can be helpful.

I usually try to keep my WUSTL trolling to a minimum, so I apologize if this post reeks of WUSTL trolling, but I do feel the CSO at WUSTL is a great strength of the school. Will they land everyone a job? No. Should you rely on them to find you a job? ABSOLUTELY NOT (danger Will Robinson!). But I must say, even as a 0L, Spivey has gone out of his way to help me and he takes a very active role in the employment searches of students who reach out to him.

/trolling

It'd be nice if more WUSTL trolls stepped in... Just want to learn more about to school.

Desert Fox wrote:

miamiman wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:

miamiman wrote:Have any schools jumped or dropped significantly in the rankings in the last 10 years? Did employment outcomes change dramatically?

Im curious. I have no idea what the answer is to that question.

(1)They have, and no such swings in placement occured. (2) But, the swings have all been T18+, where rank is irrelevant.
Fordam has the best placement outside of the top 18, but its 30 something.

Supporting evidence for both statement 1) and 2)?

1) Fordham, GW, IUB

2) Compare USNews ranking to placement data. It doesn't match up below T18. Everything is uber regional.

FWIW, those examples are all short term gains/losses (1 year aberrations), not trends, and not distant enough from 2010 to see results, unless you aren't referring to the oddities of the past 2 or 3 years. The only long-term changes I'm familiar with are those made by WUSTL/Vandy/T14 changes, so my apologies if there's some backstory I'm not aware of. I think mm was referring more to long term shifts...

PLATONiC wrote:It'd be nice if more WUSTL trolls stepped in... Just want to learn more about to school.

What do you think romo and I are?

Edit: Unless of course you mean trolls working from the opposing perspective, in which case just check xoxo and look for any thread with the letters "TTT" in the title.

I'm on the fence as to whether platonic is a perpetual flame or an actual idiot. Thoughts?

PLATONiC wrote:Would I be justified in walking away from this thread while thinking that WUSTL will actually end up getting their act together??

This is a loaded, vague, and virtually meaningless question all at the same time. What are you even asking?

miamiman wrote:I'm on the fence as to whether platonic is a perpetual flame or an actual idiot. Thoughts?

Jeez, I'm being very serious, which rules out "perpetual flame." You're mean, miamiman. I've done nothing but show my kindness to you.

PLATONiC wrote:

miamiman wrote:I'm on the fence as to whether platonic is a perpetual flame or an actual idiot. Thoughts?

Jeez, I'm being very serious, which rules out "perpetual flame." You're mean, miamiman. I've done nothing but show my kindness to you.

Your wachtell thread was comedic gold. I was convinced you were a flame.