Undergrad Prestige

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upwardtrend
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby upwardtrend » Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:22 am

my comment about college grads taking the LSAT was in jest to illustrate how polarized this discussion had become

sharpnsmooth
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby sharpnsmooth » Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:23 am

Quine wrote:
sharpnsmooth wrote:nobody has brought up smart vs. dumb, and it is out of place in this discussion. i talked about likely trends in the future, and whether the average american will see a top UG as a smart investment... smart and dumb are as out of scope in this argument as a woman randomly talking about her manicure in the middle of a debate on the oil spill.


Dude, you started this thread seeking validation. Now you've taken on populist overtones in a poor attempt to win-back forum-cred.


wrong i started this thread to find out if although my GPA is weak, I have a shot at HYS.

castanea
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby castanea » Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:24 am

Quine wrote:
sharpnsmooth wrote:

Did they teach you how to use the internet at your expensive undergrad? Mensa takes 98th percentile and above, and they reach down to the 95th percentile on the LSAT - it's on their website.

Quine wrote:Did they teach you how to use the internet at your expensive undergrad? Mensa takes 98th percentile and above, and they reach down to the 95th percentile on the LSAT - it's on their website.


Did they teach you how to use the internet at the school you went to?

Also, it's pretty funny to read people saying there's a culture war in the thread and people are just spouting off their opinions about things... and then giving their own opinion.
If you want something stickied, actually make it balanced. Most of the time, your GPA is just the GPA you earned. Sometimes, if you went to a top school, there is more leniency.
As for debt, the top several undergrads have started making it free (or significantly less) if your family earns under 80k.

I will say my personal experience may make me biased. I doubt I would have been given too many second looks from schools in the T14 with my 3.3 if I hadn't gone to a top undergrad.
Last edited by castanea on Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Quine
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby Quine » Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:24 am

upwardtrend wrote:my comment about college grads taking the LSAT was in jest to illustrate how polarized this discussion had become


Haha! You're clearly just toying with us non-top-10 undergrads.

09042014
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby 09042014 » Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:25 am

upwardtrend wrote:academically accomplished as in they were ranked high in class, good LORs, etc...not accomplished in the field of academia


It's high school, hardly the pinnacle of academic achievement. Arguing the SAT difference would be a better argument IMO.

Obviously the average top 10 undergrad student is smarter than the average flagship state student. But the difference isn't huge.

When you start talking about community college the difference is huge.

However, must undergrad coursework is almost entirely effort based. I'm smarter than the average harvard undergrad and I got my ass killed by public school kids because I was a lazy sack of shit.

upwardtrend
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby upwardtrend » Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:26 am

to the OP I would send an app to HYS if you have a high LSAT- you will probably have a better shot than those who went to lesser schools with the same numbers (you'll have better softs, LORs, etc.) Though they dont account for much they can help.

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Quine
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby Quine » Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:26 am

castanea wrote:
Quine wrote:
sharpnsmooth wrote:

Did they teach you how to use the internet at your expensive undergrad? Mensa takes 98th percentile and above, and they reach down to the 95th percentile on the LSAT - it's on their website.

Quine wrote:Did they teach you how to use the internet at your expensive undergrad? Mensa takes 98th percentile and above, and they reach down to the 95th percentile on the LSAT - it's on their website.


Did they teach you how to use the internet at the school you went to?


I was referencing his previous 3 or 4 misquotes, and then lack of research. Double posting can occur to browser errors, connection errors, or double clicking. In my case an error message came up telling me I had too many quotes. I cut them down, posted, and saw it posted the previous attempt. I tried to delete, but you had already quoted it for this truly witty rejoinder.

They don't teach us much beyond shining shoes and serving fries in the school of hard-knocks.

xyzzzzzzzz
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby xyzzzzzzzz » Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:29 am

.
Last edited by xyzzzzzzzz on Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Quine
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby Quine » Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:30 am

Desert Fox wrote:
upwardtrend wrote:academically accomplished as in they were ranked high in class, good LORs, etc...not accomplished in the field of academia


It's high school, hardly the pinnacle of academic achievement. Arguing the SAT difference would be a better argument IMO.

Obviously the average top 10 undergrad student is smarter than the average flagship state student. But the difference isn't huge.

When you start talking about community college the difference is huge.

However, must undergrad coursework is almost entirely effort based. I'm smarter than the average harvard undergrad and I got my ass killed by public school kids because I was a lazy sack of shit.


I feel you.

upwardtrend
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby upwardtrend » Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:33 am

xyzzzzzzzz wrote:
upwardtrend wrote:to the OP I would send an app to HYS if you have a high LSAT- you will probably have a better shot than those who went to lesser schools with the same numbers (you'll have better softs, LORs, etc.) Though they dont account for much they can help.


OP has a 3.6. He's not getting in, unless he is URM. It really doesn't matter if he has a better shot than someone who went to state school x and has a 3.6, because that applicant isn't getting in either.


he should still apply if he wants to.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby Bildungsroman » Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:33 am

Desert Fox wrote:
Obviously the average top 10 undergrad student is smarter than the average flagship state student. But the difference isn't huge.

Also, I think it's telling that OP wasn't talking about comparing the average students from Harvard and State. He compared a 3.0 at Harvard (way below average Harvard student) to a 4.0 at a state school (above average by an enormous margin), and still appeared to think the 3.0 Harvard student would be the more impressive applicant. At that point it seems less like we're talking about average and more about some elitist belief that every Harvard student is inherently smarter than any State student.

09042014
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby 09042014 » Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:35 am

Quine wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
upwardtrend wrote:academically accomplished as in they were ranked high in class, good LORs, etc...not accomplished in the field of academia


It's high school, hardly the pinnacle of academic achievement. Arguing the SAT difference would be a better argument IMO.

Obviously the average top 10 undergrad student is smarter than the average flagship state student. But the difference isn't huge.

When you start talking about community college the difference is huge.

However, must undergrad coursework is almost entirely effort based. I'm smarter than the average harvard undergrad and I got my ass killed by public school kids because I was a lazy sack of shit.


I feel you.


I would have gotten into at least some lower ivies if I tried, so the argument that ivies are filled with super motivated geniuses is bullshit. Hell my gpa would have probably been better too, top schools are afraid to give C's.

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Quine
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby Quine » Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:56 am

castanea wrote:I will say my personal experience may make me biased. I doubt I would have been given too many second looks from schools in the T14 with my 3.3 if I hadn't gone to a top undergrad.


Really? With a 176? This is the definition of confirmation bias.

Tofu
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby Tofu » Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:38 am

mallard wrote:I've read that the average college graduate is a full standard deviation more intelligent than the average American, but I'm not sure how such a claim could be substantiated or if it's true. But I think that while it might be close to true that just about anybody can graduate from college, it's not true that just about everybody does.


wow, that scares me if that's true about the average American :(

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Quine
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby Quine » Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:51 am

Tofu wrote:
mallard wrote:I've read that the average college graduate is a full standard deviation more intelligent than the average American, but I'm not sure how such a claim could be substantiated or if it's true. But I think that while it might be close to true that just about anybody can graduate from college, it's not true that just about everybody does.


wow, that scares me if that's true about the average American :(


Don't worry - in a few years the average American will be a college graduate.

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im_blue
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby im_blue » Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:09 am

Tofu wrote:
mallard wrote:I've read that the average college graduate is a full standard deviation more intelligent than the average American, but I'm not sure how such a claim could be substantiated or if it's true. But I think that while it might be close to true that just about anybody can graduate from college, it's not true that just about everybody does.


wow, that scares me if that's true about the average American :(

Sounds about right, since ~30% of adult Americans are college graduates, so the average college graduate is at the 85th percentile, which is roughly one standard deviation above average.

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somewhatwayward
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby somewhatwayward » Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:57 am

sharpnsmooth wrote:
wrong i started this thread to find out if although my GPA is weak, I have a shot at HYS.


i think you're probably out even with a 180 (sorry) unless your undergrad is HYP.....and even then it is probably not likely.

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excelsiorcaelo
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby excelsiorcaelo » Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:41 am

ITT: Ivy Leaguers rationalize not having done as well as state schoolers, while state schoolers rationalize not having attended the Ivy League.

This appears to be par for the course with this kind of discussion.

sharpnsmooth
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby sharpnsmooth » Wed Jun 09, 2010 12:43 pm

somewhatwayward wrote:
sharpnsmooth wrote:
wrong i started this thread to find out if although my GPA is weak, I have a shot at HYS.


i think you're probably out even with a 180 (sorry) unless your undergrad is HYP.....and even then it is probably not likely.


i don't need HYS to be successful out of law school.... just would be nice.

i think that as long as i graduate from a t-30, i'll be pretty solid because i have a tendency to place in the top percentile on any exam that i deem important so as long as i gear myself up for all 3 years, i think i could come out ranked very highly, and top 10% at Fordham or a similar school, I'm presupposing should be enough to land an enviable position. also, i find a lot of students my age are more dependent on employment than I am as for whatever reason they're scared/don't know how to make money on their own. i've been finding ways to make good money since I was 18 as i've always had to be independent and support myself... not saying i'm special, but i'm grateful i was forced to adapt as i had darwinistic gifts i wouldn't have known i had if i had a cushioned financial background.

acrossthelake
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby acrossthelake » Wed Jun 09, 2010 12:49 pm

excelsiorcaelo wrote:ITT: Ivy Leaguers rationalize not having done as well as state schoolers, while state schoolers rationalize not having attended the Ivy League.

This appears to be par for the course with this kind of discussion.


+1

Also, the 3.6GPA actually isn't necessarily game over for H if applicant is from H. A friend copied down all the stats from the "where Harvard undergrads go to law school" booklet they have, and once hit the 177-180 range of LSAT, Harvard's happy with a 3.5+GPA from its own.

VU2011
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby VU2011 » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:18 pm

...
Last edited by VU2011 on Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

acrossthelake
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby acrossthelake » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:50 pm

VU2011 wrote:I'm not sure how, if at all, law school admissions committees consider undergraduate institution, but I do want to comment on the differences between public, state universities and private, prestigious universities.

I attended a large, state flagship university for four semesters before transferring to a T20 undergrad. By and large, I have found that my experience at the T20 has required significantly more work and has been more challenging. It is worth noting that I was a member of the honors program at my old school, taking seven honors classes during my time there.

Those who fervently defend state institutions or private universities obviously are biased, as am I, but I have actually been a student in both kinds of schools. From my experience, which may be atypical, I have found my T20 to be more challenging than my old school.


I just don't think you can make a broad divide of public vs private. Some privates aren't as difficult as the flagship public, and anyone who thinks a flagship public is more difficult than CalTech or MIT is delusional.

There's a lot of variation---the computer science program at my flagship is pretty difficult, for example, but some of their other programs are ridiculously easy. All of the transfers I've talked to at my university say it's a lot more difficult than they were expecting. From my experience talking to people in the program at my flagship, my courses were def. more advanced overall, but I don't think that necessarily holds for specific courses. We have a major here designed to basically get the recruited athletes through, and that's definitely an easier major than most courses at my flagship, etc.

VU2011
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby VU2011 » Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:06 pm

acrossthelake wrote:I just don't think you can make a broad divide of public vs private. Some privates aren't as difficult as the flagship public, and anyone who thinks a flagship public is more difficult than CalTech or MIT is delusional.

There's a lot of variation---the computer science program at my flagship is pretty difficult, for example, but some of their other programs are ridiculously easy. All of the transfers I've talked to at my university say it's a lot more difficult than they were expecting. From my experience talking to people in the program at my flagship, my courses were def. more advanced overall, but I don't think that necessarily holds for specific courses. We have a major here designed to basically get the recruited athletes through, and that's definitely an easier major than most courses at my flagship, etc.

Yeah, I'm not claiming that my experience is indicative of the differences between state and private colleges. I also think it is nearly impossible to make a broad statement about public and private universities which encompasses the truth. I just felt compelled to share my experiences, because it seems that most responses on the topic in this thread are biased and seep with overt self-defense of the poster's college choice.

acrossthelake
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby acrossthelake » Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:14 pm

VU2011 wrote:Yeah, I'm not claiming that my experience is indicative of the differences between state and private colleges. I also think it is nearly impossible to make a broad statement about public and private universities which encompasses the truth. I just felt compelled to share my experiences, because it seems that most responses on the topic in this thread are biased and seep with overt self-defense of the poster's college choice.


Oh I thought your contribution was valuable in that you can actually compare from being at both. It was more in response to the rest of the thread using your quote as evidence, haa should've actually said so. Sorry I'm tired.




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