Undergrad Prestige

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Quine
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby Quine » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:38 am

sharpnsmooth wrote:
mallard wrote:You didn't really respond to the financial aid point; my guess is you don't really understand how much financial aid is available to needy students at top undergrads. The inclusion of race and gender were pure rhetoric, but that's fine. Anyway, you haven't really spoken to any of the non-economic reasons to attend a top undergrad, nor to the more or less exclusive availability of certain positions right out of college (top consulting, ibanking, etc.) at top schools, nor to the much greater strength of top schools at placing students in top graduate schools, professional schools, scholarships, fellowships, etc. It's not a huge deal. I didn't attend a top undergrad myself. But there's much more to the world than law school admissions.



2.) [b]aid: yes, there is financial aid, but this doesn't come close to covering the difference between a 50k and 10k tuition. through placing in the top 10% i boosted my scholarship from 1k to 20k over 3 yrs, but it was still a 300% cost. my situation is not rare.[/b]


You have no idea what you're talking about. I have a friend at a top-5 school paying 4K a year, the rest covered by need-based grants. I, on the other hand, could not afford a top program I applied to because I had just enough money (none liquid) to disqualify myself from need-based grants. I couldn't afford a top school because I had too much money. I don't think this at all uncommon for others in the middle to upper-middle class.

upwardtrend
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby upwardtrend » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:38 am

I am not sure to what extent there is a difference, I'm just arguing that the top 10 or 15 schools are measurably harder than average state schools. When you are at a T10 UG you are competing against people with 2100+ SATs who finished in the top 5 in their HS, while at average state schools your competition is far less. However, the benefits of attending a top UG are huge in my opinion. Its just my opinion, there is validity to both arguments.

sharpnsmooth
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby sharpnsmooth » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:38 am

Quine wrote:
upwardtrend wrote:I disagree with quine- the experience at a top UG is unrivaled AND in many cases superior to a basic state level education. There are more important things to consider when choosing a college than money. Elite undergrads have better job placement directly from UG, more chances for ECs, superior student peers and professors, etc. The experience received at an UG as well as their traditional placement in top graduate schools is unrivaled.


Did you go back after attaining that top-10 degree and try out a state school for comparison?

You have no idea, and you're the reason half of this board gets pissy every time someone bitches about their top UG GPA not having more weight than a state school.


having a one night stand could be a great experience too, but we don't do it because there could be std's. std's, of course, being another form of debt. not all good experiences are worth the debt.

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mallard
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby mallard » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:41 am

See Quine's post above. I think I'm fairly representative. I'm certainly not poor. Sure, it isn't a good economy. Seems like a reason to buttress your credentials, not to weaken them. As for the strength of top schools' placement in top graduate programs, all it takes it attending one, or looking at a list of students who attend one, or a list of Rhodes and Marshall scholars, to see. And the point above about connecting with top professors is truly credited for anybody looking to do anything remotely academic.

It's super cool that you run your own business but if you're talking about something not being representative - that certainly isn't.

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Quine
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby Quine » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:41 am

sharpnsmooth wrote:
Quine wrote:
upwardtrend wrote:I disagree with quine- the experience at a top UG is unrivaled AND in many cases superior to a basic state level education. There are more important things to consider when choosing a college than money. Elite undergrads have better job placement directly from UG, more chances for ECs, superior student peers and professors, etc. The experience received at an UG as well as their traditional placement in top graduate schools is unrivaled.


Did you go back after attaining that top-10 degree and try out a state school for comparison?

You have no idea, and you're the reason half of this board gets pissy every time someone bitches about their top UG GPA not having more weight than a state school.


having a one night stand could be a great experience too, but we don't do it because there could be std's. std's, of course, being another form of debt. not all good experiences are worth the debt.


You've just revealed yourself as someone with poor reading skills.

Or you're that stupid.

sharpnsmooth
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby sharpnsmooth » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:42 am

Quine wrote:
sharpnsmooth wrote:
mallard wrote:You didn't really respond to the financial aid point; my guess is you don't really understand how much financial aid is available to needy students at top undergrads. The inclusion of race and gender were pure rhetoric, but that's fine. Anyway, you haven't really spoken to any of the non-economic reasons to attend a top undergrad, nor to the more or less exclusive availability of certain positions right out of college (top consulting, ibanking, etc.) at top schools, nor to the much greater strength of top schools at placing students in top graduate schools, professional schools, scholarships, fellowships, etc. It's not a huge deal. I didn't attend a top undergrad myself. But there's much more to the world than law school admissions.



2.) [b]aid: yes, there is financial aid, but this doesn't come close to covering the difference between a 50k and 10k tuition. through placing in the top 10% i boosted my scholarship from 1k to 20k over 3 yrs, but it was still a 300% cost. my situation is not rare.[/b]


You have no idea what you're talking about. I have a friend at a top-5 school paying 4K a year, the rest covered by need-based grants. I, on the other hand, could not afford a top program I applied to because I had just enough money (none liquid) to disqualify myself from need-based grants. I couldn't afford a top school because I had too much money. I don't think this at all uncommon for others in the middle to upper-middle class.


your friend must be brilliant, god bless his soul. he is, however, quite a rare scenario. i'm not wrong, because one guy gets a boat load of aid. i'm sure 50-100 get aid of that caliber at your school, but these are 100 out of how many?

as for you, that is my case in point. there will still be those need based scholarships for the ultra needy, but it's the poor as well. well, what if your household income is above the poverty line, but you're religious, either as a Muslim or Jew... your cost of living for food and religious affiliation to a temple/mosque is significantly higher. i'm just saying with it's current structure and the bachelor's slowly diminishing role in one's career, the middle class seems slightly less likely to put their children in a top UG.

your example only reinforces my argument, and i thank you for that.

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Quine
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby Quine » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:43 am

upwardtrend wrote:I am not sure to what extent there is a difference, I'm just arguing that the top 10 or 15 schools are measurably harder than average state schools. When you are at a T10 UG you are competing against people with 2100+ SATs who finished in the top 5 in their HS, while at average state schools your competition is far less. However, the benefits of attending a top UG are huge in my opinion. Its just my opinion, there is validity to both arguments.


You aren't "sure to what extent there is a difference." Yet, in the same breath, you assert "the top 10 or 15 schools are measurably harder than average state schools."

What's wrong with this?

sharpnsmooth
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby sharpnsmooth » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:45 am

Quine wrote:
sharpnsmooth wrote:
Quine wrote:
upwardtrend wrote:I disagree with quine- the experience at a top UG is unrivaled AND in many cases superior to a basic state level education. There are more important things to consider when choosing a college than money. Elite undergrads have better job placement directly from UG, more chances for ECs, superior student peers and professors, etc. The experience received at an UG as well as their traditional placement in top graduate schools is unrivaled.


Did you go back after attaining that top-10 degree and try out a state school for comparison?

You have no idea, and you're the reason half of this board gets pissy every time someone bitches about their top UG GPA not having more weight than a state school.


having a one night stand could be a great experience too, but we don't do it because there could be std's. std's, of course, being another form of debt. not all good experiences are worth the debt.


You've just revealed yourself as someone with poor reading skills.

Or you're that stupid.


i was responding to upward trend, not you quinn. however, let's try to refrain from the personal attacks. we aren't 12, buddy.

upwardtrend
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby upwardtrend » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:45 am

the extent to which state schools are easier varies- state school is a huge generalization so im sure a lot of the flagships are more challenging than schools with almost open enrollment. Regardless, they cannot be as difficult when you have curved classes and are competing against extremely different peers (in my opinion)

sharpnsmooth
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby sharpnsmooth » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:47 am

Quine wrote:
upwardtrend wrote:I am not sure to what extent there is a difference, I'm just arguing that the top 10 or 15 schools are measurably harder than average state schools. When you are at a T10 UG you are competing against people with 2100+ SATs who finished in the top 5 in their HS, while at average state schools your competition is far less. However, the benefits of attending a top UG are huge in my opinion. Its just my opinion, there is validity to both arguments.


You aren't "sure to what extent there is a difference." Yet, in the same breath, you assert "the top 10 or 15 schools are measurably harder than average state schools."

What's wrong with this?


he's not sure exactly how much... then concludes they're measurably (i.e. not sure) how much. what does measurably mean, quinn? it's a very ambiguous value... nothing logically incoherent about that wording.

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Quine
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby Quine » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:49 am

sharpnsmooth wrote:
Quine wrote:
sharpnsmooth wrote:
mallard wrote:You didn't really respond to the financial aid point; my guess is you don't really understand how much financial aid is available to needy students at top undergrads. The inclusion of race and gender were pure rhetoric, but that's fine. Anyway, you haven't really spoken to any of the non-economic reasons to attend a top undergrad, nor to the more or less exclusive availability of certain positions right out of college (top consulting, ibanking, etc.) at top schools, nor to the much greater strength of top schools at placing students in top graduate schools, professional schools, scholarships, fellowships, etc. It's not a huge deal. I didn't attend a top undergrad myself. But there's much more to the world than law school admissions.



2.) [b]aid: yes, there is financial aid, but this doesn't come close to covering the difference between a 50k and 10k tuition. through placing in the top 10% i boosted my scholarship from 1k to 20k over 3 yrs, but it was still a 300% cost. my situation is not rare.[/b]


You have no idea what you're talking about. I have a friend at a top-5 school paying 4K a year, the rest covered by need-based grants. I, on the other hand, could not afford a top program I applied to because I had just enough money (none liquid) to disqualify myself from need-based grants. I couldn't afford a top school because I had too much money. I don't think this at all uncommon for others in the middle to upper-middle class.


your friend must be brilliant, god bless his soul. he is, however, quite a rare scenario. i'm not wrong, because one guy gets a boat load of aid. i'm sure 50-100 get aid of that caliber at your school, but these are 100 out of how many?

as for you, that is my case in point. there will still be those need based scholarships for the ultra needy, but it's the poor as well. well, what if your household income is above the poverty line, but you're religious, either as a Muslim or Jew... your cost of living for food and religious affiliation to a temple/mosque is significantly higher. i'm just saying with it's current structure and the bachelor's slowly diminishing role in one's career, the middle class seems slightly less likely to put their children in a top UG.

your example only reinforces my argument, and i thank you for that.


He isn't ultra-needy. He isn't destitute. He lives in a home valued (in this market) at well over 100k. He's just in the right place for whatever arbitrary cut-off they've set in a given year.

You reference your argument, but I'm not seeing it.

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vespertiliovir
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby vespertiliovir » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:49 am

sharpnsmooth wrote:your friend must be brilliant, god bless his soul. he is, however, quite a rare scenario.

not to go on the offensive here, but the two friends from high school i have who go to yale (who are clearly smart, but not that smart) pay considerably less than i do at a state school, thanks to their scholarships and grants. i graduated with similar grades/SAT scores, but there's just not as much money to go around.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby Bildungsroman » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:51 am

ITT: mediocre students from higher-ranked universities disparage less prestigious schools in a last-ditch attempt to salvage some justification of their decision to sink tens of thousands of dollars into an education that won't benefit them in the law school applications process any more than if they had gone to a state school and gotten the same GPA for a fraction of the cost.

Going to a more prestigious undergrad program says nothing about your worth or your intelligence. I would like to invite all students from "top undergrads" that look down on state schools and their students to go fuck themselves while they wait for what will undoubtedly be a humbling law schools admissions cycle.

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Quine
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby Quine » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:52 am

upwardtrend wrote:the extent to which state schools are easier varies- state school is a huge generalization so im sure a lot of the flagships are more challenging than schools with almost open enrollment. Regardless, they cannot be as difficult when you have curved classes and are competing against extremely different peers (in my opinion)


As far as I know, most state schools don't operate on a curve for that very reason. This may work for or against your argument, but I can name a few top-10s where grade inflation is a problem. In any case, grade inflation may not have any bearing on one's educational experience, and you'd be hard-pressed to demonstrate otherwise.

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Quine
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby Quine » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:52 am

Bildungsroman wrote:ITT: mediocre students from higher-ranked universities disparage less prestigious schools in a last-ditch attempt to salvage some justification of their decision to sink tens of thousands of dollars into an education that won't benefit them in the law school applications process any more than if they had gone to a state school and gotten the same GPA for a fraction of the cost.

Going to a more prestigious undergrad program says nothing about your worth or your intelligence. I would like to invite all students from "top undergrads" that look down on state schools and their students to go fuck themselves while they wait for what will undoubtedly be a humbling law schools admissions cycle.


I enjoyed that.

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youpiiz
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby youpiiz » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:53 am

Image

--ImageRemoved--

sharpnsmooth
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby sharpnsmooth » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:54 am

your example only reinforces my argument, and i thank you for that.[/quote]

He isn't ultra-needy. He isn't destitute. He lives in a home valued (in this market) at well over 100k. He's just in the right place for whatever arbitrary cut-off they've set in a given year.

You reference your argument, but I'm not seeing it.[/quote]

your friend is a once in a blue moon scenario. he is not representative of the AVERAGE middle class individual. my argument is about them on average being slightly less likely to send to a top UG. you were one example of somebody who didn't go because of finances... and now are going to a fairly expensive law school. Would you have went to that top UG in an economy where you knew a great bachelors would probably land a great job? i don't know, but it's possible. possible is more likely than not happening. the fact you presented one example (your friend) to combat my point is a bit absurd, no offense, in that the fact you mention one example does not mean that the population at large is like that. i never stated EVERYBODY. I stated ON AVERAGE. Unless your friend is so fat he's like 8 million people, he isn't the average.

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vespertiliovir
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby vespertiliovir » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:55 am

those are some emotive owls

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youpiiz
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby youpiiz » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:55 am

vespertiliovir wrote:those are some emotive owls


i freakin love'em

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mallard
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby mallard » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:55 am

Bildungsroman wrote:ITT: mediocre students from higher-ranked universities disparage less prestigious schools in a last-ditch attempt to salvage some justification of their decision to sink tens of thousands of dollars into an education that won't benefit them in the law school applications process any more than if they had gone to a state school and gotten the same GPA for a fraction of the cost.

Going to a more prestigious undergrad program says nothing about your worth or your intelligence. I would like to invite all students from "top undergrads" that look down on state schools and their students to go fuck themselves while they wait for what will undoubtedly be a humbling law schools admissions cycle.


You've got some anger yourself. Actually, as we've outlined in this thread, top schools can be cheaper even than state schools for the right applicants.

Going to a good undergrad (I didn't) does say something about your intelligence.

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Quine
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby Quine » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:56 am

sharpnsmooth wrote:
Quine wrote:
upwardtrend wrote:I am not sure to what extent there is a difference, I'm just arguing that the top 10 or 15 schools are measurably harder than average state schools. When you are at a T10 UG you are competing against people with 2100+ SATs who finished in the top 5 in their HS, while at average state schools your competition is far less. However, the benefits of attending a top UG are huge in my opinion. Its just my opinion, there is validity to both arguments.


You aren't "sure to what extent there is a difference." Yet, in the same breath, you assert "the top 10 or 15 schools are measurably harder than average state schools."

What's wrong with this?


he's not sure exactly how much... then concludes they're measurably (i.e. not sure) how much. what does measurably mean, quinn? it's a very ambiguous value... nothing logically incoherent about that wording.


"Measurably" means "not sure"? Really? That's new. According to the American Heritage dictionary it means "able to be measured" or "large enough to be measured; definite".

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youpiiz
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby youpiiz » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:56 am

mallard wrote:
Going to a good undergrad (I didn't) does say something about your intelligence.


dayum boy dont say that; you fo sho did.

upwardtrend
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby upwardtrend » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:59 am

lol as far as my use of the word "measurably" - what i meant to say was that there is a difference in difficulty level, but im not really sure how much and that it probably varies from school to school. Whether my sentence made sense is not the topic at hand.

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Quine
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby Quine » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:59 am

mallard wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:ITT: mediocre students from higher-ranked universities disparage less prestigious schools in a last-ditch attempt to salvage some justification of their decision to sink tens of thousands of dollars into an education that won't benefit them in the law school applications process any more than if they had gone to a state school and gotten the same GPA for a fraction of the cost.

Going to a more prestigious undergrad program says nothing about your worth or your intelligence. I would like to invite all students from "top undergrads" that look down on state schools and their students to go fuck themselves while they wait for what will undoubtedly be a humbling law schools admissions cycle.


You've got some anger yourself. Actually, as we've outlined in this thread, top schools can be cheaper even than state schools for the right applicants.


Ah, but mallard, you're describing something that happens only once in a blue moon, you starry-eyed dreamer.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: Undergrad Prestige

Postby Bildungsroman » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:59 am

mallard wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:ITT: mediocre students from higher-ranked universities disparage less prestigious schools in a last-ditch attempt to salvage some justification of their decision to sink tens of thousands of dollars into an education that won't benefit them in the law school applications process any more than if they had gone to a state school and gotten the same GPA for a fraction of the cost.

Going to a more prestigious undergrad program says nothing about your worth or your intelligence. I would like to invite all students from "top undergrads" that look down on state schools and their students to go fuck themselves while they wait for what will undoubtedly be a humbling law schools admissions cycle.


You've got some anger yourself. Actually, as we've outlined in this thread, top schools can be cheaper even than state schools for the right applicants.

Going to a good undergrad (I didn't) does say something about your intelligence.


Going to a good undergrad says nothing about your intelligence. It says something about how hard you worked in high school and how well you did on the SAT/ACT (which don't claim to measure intelligence and are very learnable).




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