military before law school?

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tittsburghfeelers
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Re: military before law school?

Postby tittsburghfeelers » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:33 pm

unc0mm0n1 wrote:
hasmith wrote:
unc0mm0n1 wrote:Hey I'm not sure why all of these guys are saying military service isn't a great soft. Look at my profile. I got in to Yale and Harvard but my numbers don't seem to say I would. The same goes for my three of my buddies who are going to law school all four of us out performed are numbers (no matter if they are URM) or not.


It was not your military experience that got you into Harvard or Yale. I had better numbers and military experience - did not come close to Harvard or Yale.


What was it then? Let me guess it was bring a URM? So why didnt every URM with my numbers get in? I don't care what you think actually but I have white military friends who also outperformed their numbers just take sometimeook through lsn and see some of the military cycles.

Edit before this turns into a URM debate. Of course I got a boost but our candidates with my numbers didn't get in. When I spoke with JR he specifically talked about my military past. I think it makes a difference. If you disagree then we just have to agree to disagree.


I'm thinking about joining the Army before law school as well. If you don't mind me asking, what was your MOS and what age will you be when you start law school?

Like you, if I join, I will go in as enlisted. I have no desire to be an officer, without first being enlisted and knowing what it really means to be a soldier.

Whatever'sClever
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Re: military before law school?

Postby Whatever'sClever » Sat Apr 16, 2011 4:27 am

unc0mm0n1 wrote:What was it then? Let me guess it was bring a URM? So why didnt every URM with my numbers get in? I don't care what you think actually but I have white military friends who also outperformed their numbers just take sometimeook through lsn and see some of the military cycles.

Edit before this turns into a URM debate. Of course I got a boost but our candidates with my numbers didn't get in. When I spoke with JR he specifically talked about my military past. I think it makes a difference. If you disagree then we just have to agree to disagree.


You sir would be correct. Come on now, EVERYONE but you seems to know that you got in because of URM.

I mean, YOU CHECKED THE BOX for URM, RIGHT? (You do know it is voluntary to do so)

So I really want to add the old cliche, Calling a spade a spade, but I fear you would call me a racist.

You got in because of URM. Love it, live it, embrace it. Hell if it was me, I would be talking mad shit like, "at least I got in MF'er". You know something Gangsta like that . (oops, I did it).

AA/URM=BS (Affirmative action/ Under represented minority=Bull shit)

I aint even white.(on a personal note, I am super stoked that it is almost April 20th I have been celebrating all month in anticipation of 4/20)

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unc0mm0n1
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Re: military before law school?

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Sat Apr 16, 2011 5:26 am

Whatever'sClever wrote:
unc0mm0n1 wrote:What was it then? Let me guess it was bring a URM? So why didnt every URM with my numbers get in? I don't care what you think actually but I have white military friends who also outperformed their numbers just take sometimeook through lsn and see some of the military cycles.

Edit before this turns into a URM debate. Of course I got a boost but our candidates with my numbers didn't get in. When I spoke with JR he specifically talked about my military past. I think it makes a difference. If you disagree then we just have to agree to disagree.


You sir would be correct. Come on now, EVERYONE but you seems to know that you got in because of URM.

I mean, YOU CHECKED THE BOX for URM, RIGHT? (You do know it is voluntary to do so)

So I really want to add the old cliche, Calling a spade a spade, but I fear you would call me a racist.

You got in because of URM. Love it, live it, embrace it. Hell if it was me, I would be talking mad shit like, "at least I got in MF'er". You know something Gangsta like that . (oops, I did it).

AA/URM=BS (Affirmative action/ Under represented minority=Bull shit)

I aint even white.(on a personal note, I am super stoked that it is almost April 20th I have been celebrating all month in anticipation of 4/20)


Hey guy just because you make a new screen name and post the same garbage we all know it's you. You're the only person who is bitter and upset about it. Sorry man. Anyway have a great day. If you want to have a URM debate take it to the lounge (but at least be a man and use your real screen name).

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robotclubmember
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Re: military before law school?

Postby robotclubmember » Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:29 am

LSAT >> GPA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everything else. military will not help or hurt your admissions in any meaningful way.

going to the military if you know you want to end up in law school is a bad financial decision (assuming you got into duke/uva like one poster here did, or any other t14). if you feel it would benefit you for personal reasons to be in the military, then do it. but if you're looking at t14 as an option, then what you're doing is replacing 4 years of corprorate lawyer salary with four years of military grunt salary, and you're also losing a lifetime's worth of accumulated ROI on income made in your early years. once you take out your TVM solver it becomes obvious that going to the military could easily cost you half a million to a million over the course of your life. this assumes that you are good enough to go to T14 though.

the GI bill is weak. 4 years to get a little payout for school, when you could have spent 3 months studying for the lsat and gotten scholly that dwarfed the GI bill.

if you think it personally helps your life, then go into the military. if you know you want to go to law school and have the numbers to get you into HYS, then there is no financial value to going into the military. any T14, T25 really, and i'd still stay away from the military for financial reasons. get out an excel spreadsheet and figure out the financial impact (build in a 4% discount rate for inflation, which is modest i think considering you could begin investing in high value assets with >10% yields much earlier in life going to law school). the military is a bad deal financially, crunch the numbers and this will become clear fast.

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hous
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Re: military before law school?

Postby hous » Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:39 am

sharpnsmooth wrote:
OIF2LAW wrote:
JOThompson wrote:
OP: I also gave a military career much thought but I ultimately decided I wanted to be a lawyer first. There are numerous benefits as a military officer, but make sure you're commissioning for the right reasons, not just because military service is a good soft.


+1
This would be a terrible course of action to undertake


unless you're already at around 170, i feel like improving your LSAT score 5 points would be a lot easier than joining the military for 4 years.

it's actually a shame that military service isn't a better valued soft by American law schools, and various other professions. I know in Iran, for instance, military service is a guaranteed path up the social status ladder, and it seems logical to argue that if America adapted a similar mentality, our military would be better.

in all, it seems like the only reason to join the military is because you believe in fighting for your country. the payment stories are great, namely about how the government took care of you, but it's also possible you could have saved more money working another job. I just don't find people commemorate our troops for the most part as they did in generations past or in the countries of our enemies today.


I agree. Military service should be a much more respected soft when it comes to admissions.

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robotclubmember
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Re: military before law school?

Postby robotclubmember » Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:50 am

unc0mm0n1 wrote:
hasmith wrote:
unc0mm0n1 wrote:Hey I'm not sure why all of these guys are saying military service isn't a great soft. Look at my profile. I got in to Yale and Harvard but my numbers don't seem to say I would. The same goes for my three of my buddies who are going to law school all four of us out performed are numbers (no matter if they are URM) or not.


It was not your military experience that got you into Harvard or Yale. I had better numbers and military experience - did not come close to Harvard or Yale.


What was it then? Let me guess it was bring a URM? So why didnt every URM with my numbers get in? I don't care what you think actually but I have white military friends who also outperformed their numbers just take sometimeook through lsn and see some of the military cycles.

Edit before this turns into a URM debate. Of course I got a boost but our candidates with my numbers didn't get in. When I spoke with JR he specifically talked about my military past. I think it makes a difference. If you disagree then we just have to agree to disagree.


Well, they're not going to praise you for being a URM. Can you imagine speaking with JR and hearing "we REALLY liked the fact that you were black also, i think it really added a lot of depth to your application..."

I don't know what you were expecting, but if you were white or an ORM like asian, you would not have gotten in. End of debate. Congrats on your cycle, you did great and deserved to get in where you did, but be honest with yourself and embrace the reality that your URM status was the cherry on top of a strong application that opened the doors to the best law schools in the country. And no, they wouldn't have taken you without the cherry on top.

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BobbyDigital
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Re: military before law school?

Postby BobbyDigital » Sat Apr 16, 2011 11:19 pm

Forget the soft. For me, the GI Bill has been huge. Schools that participate in the 'yellow ribbon program' will cover all of your tuition. Also, I think military experience is more valuable to state/fed employers (if you're looking to go that route), more so than to law schools. Four years of service to cover your tuition is nothing considering how long it would normally take to pay off student loans. Don't know how much a paralegal job in the Army would help for law school, but I've heard it's great experience.

LSATfromNC
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Re: military before law school?

Postby LSATfromNC » Sat Apr 16, 2011 11:32 pm

Haven't read the rest of the post, so sue me if someone else has said this. Join the military because you want to serve, but not for the gi bill, and certainly not for the soft factor. Good luck in whatever you decide.

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Cavgirl
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Re: military before law school?

Postby Cavgirl » Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:09 am

LSATfromNC wrote:Haven't read the rest of the post, so sue me if someone else has said this. Join the military because you want to serve, but not for the gi bill, and certainly not for the soft factor. Good luck in whatever you decide.


+1

FiveSermon
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Re: military before law school?

Postby FiveSermon » Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:12 am

unc0mm0n1 wrote:Hey I'm not sure why all of these guys are saying military service isn't a great soft. Look at my profile. I got in to Yale and Harvard but my numbers don't seem to say I would. The same goes for my three of my buddies who are going to law school all four of us out performed are numbers (no matter if they are URM) or not. But too be fair my friends are a little high speed as well. We all wanted to join the military not for softs or the GI Bill but because of civic duty. All four of us have been deployed multiple times, all four of us have went to specialized advanced schools (rangers, pathfinders, sapper, etc.), three of us are airborne, three of us have CABs, and two of us have bronze stars. I say of you go to the military give it all you have and you can get something great out of it. I loved my time in but I always knew I wanted to be a lawyer long term. So if you do too don't get distracted. Don't get someone pregnant or marry the first Korean or German girl you meet outside of the gate. Concentrate on work and school. Get a masters while you're in. The military paid for mine.

P.s. I know some people said you have to be an officer but I don't agree. Even though I had a degree I came in enlisted (i personally didn't want to lead troops until I knew what being a troop was about) and I don't think it hurt me one bit.

Edit. I know people don't talk about this but also understand you can die. Even as a paralegal or admin guy. Last time my division deployed we lost 89 Soldiers and I'm sure none of them thought they'd be the one to go. Some were officers some were enlisted. Some were in their teens and some were about to retire. There were infantry, admin, mechanics and pilot deaths. That doesn't include the hundreds of Soldiers we had injured. If you get a chance volunteer to see the Soldiers at Walter Reed. Many don't have all of their apendages. Then there is the mental anguish that goes along with the job, PTSD, depression increased suicide probability. You might have to kill someone can you live with that? I'm not telling you not to join but many people have this idealized view of the military. And while people do skate through and never do anything closely combat related, many people find themselves in situations they never thought they'd be in. Just be sure when you join that's what you want to do.


U TO THE R TO THE FUCKING M

tittsburghfeelers
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Re: military before law school?

Postby tittsburghfeelers » Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:16 am

FiveSermon wrote:
unc0mm0n1 wrote:Hey I'm not sure why all of these guys are saying military service isn't a great soft. Look at my profile. I got in to Yale and Harvard but my numbers don't seem to say I would. The same goes for my three of my buddies who are going to law school all four of us out performed are numbers (no matter if they are URM) or not. But too be fair my friends are a little high speed as well. We all wanted to join the military not for softs or the GI Bill but because of civic duty. All four of us have been deployed multiple times, all four of us have went to specialized advanced schools (rangers, pathfinders, sapper, etc.), three of us are airborne, three of us have CABs, and two of us have bronze stars. I say of you go to the military give it all you have and you can get something great out of it. I loved my time in but I always knew I wanted to be a lawyer long term. So if you do too don't get distracted. Don't get someone pregnant or marry the first Korean or German girl you meet outside of the gate. Concentrate on work and school. Get a masters while you're in. The military paid for mine.

P.s. I know some people said you have to be an officer but I don't agree. Even though I had a degree I came in enlisted (i personally didn't want to lead troops until I knew what being a troop was about) and I don't think it hurt me one bit.

Edit. I know people don't talk about this but also understand you can die. Even as a paralegal or admin guy. Last time my division deployed we lost 89 Soldiers and I'm sure none of them thought they'd be the one to go. Some were officers some were enlisted. Some were in their teens and some were about to retire. There were infantry, admin, mechanics and pilot deaths. That doesn't include the hundreds of Soldiers we had injured. If you get a chance volunteer to see the Soldiers at Walter Reed. Many don't have all of their apendages. Then there is the mental anguish that goes along with the job, PTSD, depression increased suicide probability. You might have to kill someone can you live with that? I'm not telling you not to join but many people have this idealized view of the military. And while people do skate through and never do anything closely combat related, many people find themselves in situations they never thought they'd be in. Just be sure when you join that's what you want to do.


U TO THE R TO THE FUCKING M


There's a URM in another forum with a 3.4 and 170 who didn't get into HYS. So I guarantee that military service did help this particular case.

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robotclubmember
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Re: military before law school?

Postby robotclubmember » Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:38 pm

tittsburghfeelers wrote:
There's a URM in another forum with a 3.4 and 170 who didn't get into HYS. So I guarantee that military service did help this particular case.


With such a thorough analysis of all other possible factors, I am inclined to agree that this one difference, and not the fact that Harvard has a VERY hard GPA floor, was the deciding factor. Seriously though, 3.4's don't have a hope at Harvard unless 99th percentile on LSAT, PLUS URM status, and even then it's a crap shoot. If he didn't go into the military, he would have done something else with those four years that would have made just as little difference.

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FlanAl
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Re: military before law school?

Postby FlanAl » Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:52 pm

I swear I thought you had to put in 8 years. 4 years active 4 reserve. Am I crazy?

edited to say that that was what the recruiter told me.

tittsburghfeelers
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Re: military before law school?

Postby tittsburghfeelers » Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:03 pm

FlanAl wrote:I swear I thought you had to put in 8 years. 4 years active 4 reserve. Am I crazy?

edited to say that that was what the recruiter told me.


You have to put in 8 years, but they can be divided up a few different ways. Someone can serve for 6 years active duty and then 2 years in the regular reserves. Someone can serve 4 years active, 4 years regular reserve. Or you can serve 3 years active and then 5 years in the reserves. But there's two different types of reserves. The first, which is the one that you're referencing is the "1 weekend a month, 2 weeks a year reserves". The other type of reserves is actually called the IRR (individual, ready reserve). This means that you're still technically in the military, yet you don't have to do the "1 weekend a month, 2 weeks a year". However, during war, if you're still in the IRR, you can be recalled to the active military. Being recalled from the IRR is called "stop-loss". Whereas many people flip out about the idea of "stop-loss", it's what they signed up for when they signed on the dotted line.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that a standard enlistment constitutes 4 years active and then 4 years in the IRR. So you're still doing your 8 years but, for most people, only 4 years of which are on active duty. I also don't believe that you're paid while in the IRR unless you're recalled to active duty, whereas in the "1 weekend a month, 2 weeks a year" reserves, you're paid according to the days that you are on active duty (when you're doing your 1 weekend a month, technically you're considered on active duty).

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Stringer Bell
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Re: military before law school?

Postby Stringer Bell » Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:15 pm

unc0mm0n1 wrote:Edit. I know people don't talk about this but also understand you can die. Even as a paralegal or admin guy. Last time my division deployed we lost 89 Soldiers and I'm sure none of them thought they'd be the one to go. Some were officers some were enlisted. Some were in their teens and some were about to retire. There were infantry, admin, mechanics and pilot deaths. That doesn't include the hundreds of Soldiers we had injured. If you get a chance volunteer to see the Soldiers at Walter Reed. Many don't have all of their apendages. Then there is the mental anguish that goes along with the job, PTSD, depression increased suicide probability. You might have to kill someone can you live with that? I'm not telling you not to join but many people have this idealized view of the military. And while people do skate through and never do anything closely combat related, many people find themselves in situations they never thought they'd be in. Just be sure when you join that's what you want to do.


Really good stuff here. I'm not in the military, but I have family and friends that are. A lot of people really don't think about these things.

Jeffro
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Re: military before law school?

Postby Jeffro » Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:49 am

tittsburghfeelers wrote:Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that a standard enlistment constitutes 4 years active and then 4 years in the IRR. So you're still doing your 8 years but, for most people, only 4 years of which are on active duty. I also don't believe that you're paid while in the IRR unless you're recalled to active duty, whereas in the "1 weekend a month, 2 weeks a year" reserves, you're paid according to the days that you are on active duty (when you're doing your 1 weekend a month, technically you're considered on active duty).

This is correct for the most part. The only standard, though, is that you sign up for 8 years regardless of how many of those are active. For instance - I signed up for 5 years and got stop lossed for 6 extra months, so when I got out I had 2.5 years of IRR time remaining. I knew people who only signed up for 3 years active duty, so they just obviously owed 5 more years of IRR time. IRR is basically nothing, but you have some very small obligations such as going to a Career Counselor once a year to do some paperwork (for which you get paid for one day of active duty so something close to $200, as I recall). Since I had 2.5 years of time, I didn't have to do anything bigger than what I just described, although I know there are other obligations for some. When you hit 8 years you get a letter and your actual "Honorable Discharge" certificate in the mail...which I just got the other day and it's getting framed dammit.

privatemf
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Re: military before law school?

Postby privatemf » Sat May 21, 2011 3:48 pm

[quote="robotclubmember"]
the GI bill is weak. 4 years to get a little payout for school, when you could have spent 3 months studying for the lsat and gotten scholly that dwarfed the GI bill.
quote]

I am not sure if scholly gives a living allowance and money for books. But that makes the benefit a wonderful opportunity for some. Most schools the tution is completely covered so you come out with owing nothing and some help with rent.

killingnoise
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Re: military before law school?

Postby killingnoise » Mon May 18, 2015 9:59 am

New poster here.

I am interested in a life of public service --- for me it was either the military or the Peace Corps.

I am also interested in politics, majoring in Political Science & Government at undergrad.

Theoretically what kind of numbers would I need for admission into a top school like Harvard or Yale?

I'm heavily considering military & think it's the path for me --- specifically thinking JAG Corps. I want to give my service & build myself up to further who I am as well as help my country, if you get me.

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: military before law school?

Postby TheSpanishMain » Mon May 18, 2015 10:12 am

robotclubmember wrote:the GI bill is weak. 4 years to get a little payout for school, when you could have spent 3 months studying for the lsat and gotten scholly that dwarfed the GI bill.


For any new person reading this very old thread, this is categorically false. The GI Bill, for a 100% eligible veteran, will pay 100% of tuition and fees (assuming the school has the Yellow Ribbon Program, which almost all do) plus give you a living stipend for rent, plus money for books. The vast majority of schools don't award living stipends, or if they do, they're extremely competitive. Even something like Chicago's Rubenstein or Columbia's Hamilton, considered the best outcomes possible in law school admissions, don't match the GI Bill in generosity when you consider cost of living stipends. HYS don't give out merit aid at all, so no amount of studying will help there.

I'd agree that no one should join the military just to get the GI Bill, but saying that you can just improve your LSAT score and get the functional equivalent of the Post 9/11 in scholarship money is ridiculous.

carterjo
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Re: military before law school?

Postby carterjo » Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:57 pm

Cavgirl wrote:
LSATfromNC wrote:Haven't read the rest of the post, so sue me if someone else has said this. Join the military because you want to serve, but not for the gi bill, and certainly not for the soft factor. Good luck in whatever you decide.


+1




.

prosebeforehoes
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Re: military before law school?

Postby prosebeforehoes » Mon Oct 10, 2016 5:58 pm

motiontodismiss wrote:
sharpnsmooth wrote:
OIF2LAW wrote:
JOThompson wrote:
OP: I also gave a military career much thought but I ultimately decided I wanted to be a lawyer first. There are numerous benefits as a military officer, but make sure you're commissioning for the right reasons, not just because military service is a good soft.


+1
This would be a terrible course of action to undertake


unless you're already at around 170, i feel like improving your LSAT score 5 points would be a lot easier than joining the military for 4 years.

it's actually a shame that military service isn't a better valued soft by American law schools, and various other professions. I know in Iran, for instance, military service is a guaranteed path up the social status ladder, and it seems logical to argue that if America adapted a similar mentality, our military would be better.

in all, it seems like the only reason to join the military is because you believe in fighting for your country. the payment stories are great, namely about how the government took care of you, but it's also possible you could have saved more money working another job. I just don't find people commemorate our troops for the most part as they did in generations past or in the countries of our enemies today.


I consider this a good thing. It's becoming socially less acceptable to send people to a foreign country to die against their will.


I think you are conflating two ideas above. The guy is talking about treating people poorly who serve. That is not a good thing, sir. Whether sending them to die against their will should be socially acceptable is debatable, but whether to treat them especially well when they return should not be.

JOThompson
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Re: military before law school?

Postby JOThompson » Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:28 pm

I am surprised this thread is still active.

For what it's worth, some of my friends at Iowa did receive a decent veteran boost, and were accepted with an LSAT about 4-8 points below the median score. No idea if that is currently the situation though.

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UnicornHunter
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Re: military before law school?

Postby UnicornHunter » Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:35 pm

FUCK YES

e. I hadn't read anything else in the thread. This is a direct response to the question in the subject line.

e2. But do it for that sweet sweet GI bill and just because it's a Good and Interesting thing to do, not as a roundabout way to get a veteran's boost.

e3. It's a good thing that we're not a nation like Iran with an entrenched military elite. That being said, it's not the Iranian grunts who are reaping the rewards of membership in the revolutionary guard and our generals get pretty cushy lives post-service here too so I think the difference isn't as big as is being suggested ITT.

toobig2lose
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Re: military before law school?

Postby toobig2lose » Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:36 pm

Sounds good.




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