Hey 0Ls! Prove to me that law school is a wise investment.

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mallard
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Re: Hey 0Ls! Prove to me that law school is a wise investment.

Postby mallard » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:53 pm

rdcws000 wrote:The first flaw in all the doomsday stuff is that it assumes the legal profession is unique. The economy is horrible and any job is hard to get. Even the top 3 growing industries since 2006 (Government, Education, and Health Care) are very tough to break into right now, with the possible exception of skilled nurses.

I know firsthand from many teachers and recent graduates that a public school job is very tough to find right now because of the influx of professionals from other failing industries falling back on teaching.

The long and short of it is that we are in a world of crap. Everyone, not just law students. I predict the crap will go on fro some time, but it will improve eventually. Should we all stop living, eat cheetos, and watch Law and Order until then?

The second flaw in all the doomsday talk, is that it assumes all potential law students are investors, speculating on a massive ROI within 5 years. I know there are some who want to go to law school only because they want to be rich, and they should seriously examine themselves right now, but many approach law school for different reasons.

Some have decent careers now and believe they can attend law school PT and cut the usual debt in half simply by working. These people also are thinking realistically about <100k per year jobs, or even <60k per year jobs when they graduate. Some actually want to be lawyers!!!

I think everyone should give it some thought, but the idea that lawyers are the only ones suffering through paltry employment prospects is just not very well supported.


This is true, which is why applicants also need to consider their alternatives (what are they? If they don't have any, that's not necessarily a great reason to apply, although I'm not sure people who go to law school because they didn't have anything else to do hate it comparatively more than everyone else); do research on their chosen career path (their "different reasons" - are they feasible? International space-genocide law is just as unlikely from American as it ever was; if your ambition is to be a public interest lawyer in any capacity, sure, don't worry as someone who will only be happy with V5, but few people have such a generalized goal); and ask people what being a lawyer is actually like (if you associate Boston Legal with the actual practice of law in any way, do not attend law school).

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VA LawDog
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Re: Hey 0Ls! Prove to me that law school is a wise investment.

Postby VA LawDog » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:55 pm

Locke N. Lawded wrote:Hey 0Ls! Prove to me that law school is a wise investment.


Why must 0L's prove anything to you?

Locke N. Lawded wrote:I really am interested in finding out what is going through your mind ...


That's none of your damn business; and, quite frankly, rather presumptuous of you to ask.

Tautology
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Re: Hey 0Ls! Prove to me that law school is a wise investment.

Postby Tautology » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:56 pm

Locke N. Lawded appears to think the only people who should be going to law school are people at HYS on scholarship and everyone else should find something else to do while all the other schools close up shop.

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Re: Hey 0Ls! Prove to me that law school is a wise investment.

Postby keg411 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:00 pm

bk1 wrote:
mistergoft wrote:The only difference between this guy and the jobless T14 grads is that they're too embarrassed to whine. You realize how bad the economy is, right?


This guy acts like TLS is a bastion of optimism that is all "NYC to 190" all the time. If it were, then he might be founded. But it's not. While TLS may not be as pessimistic as JDU, people here clearly understand and tell others that things are not all sunshine, puppies, and chocolate chip cookies
.


People see what they want to see. I think the JDU'ers have great points, but they mostly do a poor job of expressing it. There are so many better ways of wording things. But I think some post the way they do because they know they will get jumped on and then can go back to thinking "THEY WON'T LISTEN TO ME! THAT MEANS THEY THINK EVERYTHING IS RAINBOWS AND ARE DOOOOMED". And the cycle keeps on going and going and going and going and going.

Not that there isn't blind 0L optimism -- there certainly is plenty of it. But there are other ways of sharing experiences and concerns without sounding like one of the 911 Truthers.

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megaTTTron
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Re: Hey 0Ls! Prove to me that law school is a wise investment.

Postby megaTTTron » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:01 pm

<----- wishing he hadn't posted so that this meaningless banter won't pop up on my "view your posts" page for the next week as people get super defensive. fml.

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A'nold
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Re: Hey 0Ls! Prove to me that law school is a wise investment.

Postby A'nold » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:03 pm

Ugh. All of my fellow 1L's who I very much respect should not be giving this guy and kudos. I can't believe the nonsense that is spewed on this board, xoxo, and JDUnderground. Law school is a great investment for many people and is MUCH more than just a cost benefit analysis, which is almost universally a great investment long-term. The classist crap on this site absolutely amazes me. I will be making like $4k a month this summer and I am BLOWN AWAY by this amount of money. Many of you think of law school as a failure if you aren't making close to that a week. Just realize that when you spew your privileged bs you are influencing people that would really, REALLY benefit from a legal career. Have any of you ever worked the kind of entry-level shit temp job you would be LUCKY to get w/ a UG degree? Ever had a middle manager yell at you for your staple job? Ever want to kill yourself every minute of the day while watching the clock and making $12 an hour? For the people that say you can make $60k out of UG, you are absolutely full of shit. Most UG's won't make the equivalent of that (adjusted for inflation) w/in 5-7 years out of UG. The ceiling for attorneys, even in the dreaded "shitlaw" is well over 100k in most situations. You are in the tippy top of the US and are actually wealthy by most accounts. It makes me actually shake I get so pissed when I see people complaining about this kind of crap. Why don't you step out of your little life for one second to see what a privilege this kind of salary really is? Even if you net $4,500 a month and your loan payments are $1,500, you are living off of $3k a month. Maybe not glamorous but much better than what most people make and that is more of an entry-level salary and that $1,500 a month loan payment will look more like chump change later in life.

Every single middle-aged attorney I've ever met is well-off. Get over yourselves and let people improve their lives. This was not addressed to my fellow law school peeps in this thread, instead, it was addressed to the constant JDU trolls and know-it-all 0L's that think they have any idea what they are talking about.

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traehekat
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Re: Hey 0Ls! Prove to me that law school is a wise investment.

Postby traehekat » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:03 pm

The very idea of going to law school right now is irrational, we all know that. You cannot go to law school assuming you will be in the top 15-20%, however for most law schools that is where you are going to need to be to have a shot at decent employment ITE. So unless you are going to, lets say, a T6 school, then it just doesn't look like a great investment.

But what is the solution? Should people just stop going to law school? Everything in life involves risk. Perhaps going to law school is a bigger risk than a lot of other career choices, but if that is your passion and you are willing to take that risk, then I can't fault anyone for that.

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mallard
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Re: Hey 0Ls! Prove to me that law school is a wise investment.

Postby mallard » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:03 pm

traehekat wrote:The very idea of going to law school right now is irrational, we all know that. You cannot go to law school assuming you will be in the top 15-20%, however for most law schools that is where you are going to need to be to have a shot at decent employment ITE. So unless you are going to, lets say, a T6 school, then it just doesn't look like a great investment.

But what is the solution? Should people just stop going to law school? Everything in life involves risk. Perhaps going to law school is a bigger risk than a lot of other career choices, but if that is your passion and you are willing to take that risk, then I can't fault anyone for that.


Very few people who know what law entails are passionate about it. It's precisely a risk-averse choice.

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traehekat
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Re: Hey 0Ls! Prove to me that law school is a wise investment.

Postby traehekat » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:07 pm

mallard wrote:
traehekat wrote:The very idea of going to law school right now is irrational, we all know that. You cannot go to law school assuming you will be in the top 15-20%, however for most law schools that is where you are going to need to be to have a shot at decent employment ITE. So unless you are going to, lets say, a T6 school, then it just doesn't look like a great investment.

But what is the solution? Should people just stop going to law school? Everything in life involves risk. Perhaps going to law school is a bigger risk than a lot of other career choices, but if that is your passion and you are willing to take that risk, then I can't fault anyone for that.


Very few people who know what law entails are passionate about it. It's precisely a risk-averse choice.


It's no secret a lot of law students are motivated by the money. In this case, it is an even WORSE investment.

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romothesavior
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Re: Hey 0Ls! Prove to me that law school is a wise investment.

Postby romothesavior » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:08 pm

Look at a'nold go! Haha...

I do think he has a great point though. Even in crappy, small firms in tiny markets, the ceiling for a lawyer is much higher than for someone who doesn't have a legal job. I'm not trying to say law school is a wise decision for everyone, and in fact it is probably a bad call for most students, but I think it is a good decision for a LOT of people. Especially if you go on scholarship, go in a market you want to practice in, and put yourself in a position for success.

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Re: Hey 0Ls! Prove to me that law school is a wise investment.

Postby bankruptedcasino » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:11 pm

Have any of you ever worked the kind of entry-level shit temp job you would be LUCKY to get w/ a UG degree? Ever had a middle manager yell at you for your staple job? Ever want to kill yourself every minute of the day while watching the clock and making $12 an hour? For the people that say you can make $60k out of UG, you are absolutely full of shit. Most UG's won't make the equivalent of that (adjusted for inflation) w/in 5-7 years out of UG. The ceiling for attorneys, even in the dreaded "shitlaw" is well over 100k in most situations....

Every single middle-aged attorney I've ever met is well-off.


180.

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traehekat
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Re: Hey 0Ls! Prove to me that law school is a wise investment.

Postby traehekat » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:15 pm

bankruptedcasino wrote:
Have any of you ever worked the kind of entry-level shit temp job you would be LUCKY to get w/ a UG degree? Ever had a middle manager yell at you for your staple job? Ever want to kill yourself every minute of the day while watching the clock and making $12 an hour? For the people that say you can make $60k out of UG, you are absolutely full of shit. Most UG's won't make the equivalent of that (adjusted for inflation) w/in 5-7 years out of UG. The ceiling for attorneys, even in the dreaded "shitlaw" is well over 100k in most situations....

Every single middle-aged attorney I've ever met is well-off.


180.


I'm not sure looking back in the past is the best way to evaluate the employment prospects of current and future students, though. Indeed, law school used to be a wise investment. Right now it certainly isn't as good of an investment, and it may never see that level of return again.

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mallard
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Re: Hey 0Ls! Prove to me that law school is a wise investment.

Postby mallard » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:17 pm

I like A'nold's fiery awareness of class issues, but he neglects the fact that for many people, law school was a bad decision precisely because they're unable to continue working as lawyers when they're middle-aged. Really, it shouldn't surprise anyone that middle-aged attorneys are successful!

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A'nold
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Re: Hey 0Ls! Prove to me that law school is a wise investment.

Postby A'nold » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:21 pm

traehekat wrote:
bankruptedcasino wrote:
Have any of you ever worked the kind of entry-level shit temp job you would be LUCKY to get w/ a UG degree? Ever had a middle manager yell at you for your staple job? Ever want to kill yourself every minute of the day while watching the clock and making $12 an hour? For the people that say you can make $60k out of UG, you are absolutely full of shit. Most UG's won't make the equivalent of that (adjusted for inflation) w/in 5-7 years out of UG. The ceiling for attorneys, even in the dreaded "shitlaw" is well over 100k in most situations....

Every single middle-aged attorney I've ever met is well-off.


180.


I'm not sure looking back in the past is the best way to evaluate the employment prospects of current and future students, though. Indeed, law school used to be a wise investment. Right now it certainly isn't as good of an investment, and it may never see that level of return again.


I'm no math guy, but if a student wants to work in, say, NE and they get in-state and a little scholly at the University of Nebraska, they could graduate for like 70k. Within 5 years they make, say, 90k on the low end. Within 10 years they make, say, 120k. I'd say that is worth the investment.

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romothesavior
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Re: Hey 0Ls! Prove to me that law school is a wise investment.

Postby romothesavior » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:25 pm

A'nold wrote:
I'm no math guy, but if a student wants to work in, say, NE and they get in-state and a little scholly at the University of Nebraska, they could graduate for like 70k. Within 5 years they make, say, 90k on the low end. Within 10 years they make, say, 120k. I'd say that is worth the investment.


At first I thought you meant go to Nebraska for New England... :shock:

Mallard does have a point though... most of the unsuccessful lawyers are out of the profession before middle age.

Honestly, I can't really speak to the rest of the 0Ls on here about what is wise and what is not. But for me, law school (particularly the one I am going to) is a good decision for a host of reasons. I also have two relatively viable back-up plans if grades aren't stellar, and I feel like I have a solid plan in place to end up in a good legal job.

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traehekat
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Re: Hey 0Ls! Prove to me that law school is a wise investment.

Postby traehekat » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:28 pm

A'nold wrote:
traehekat wrote:
bankruptedcasino wrote:
Have any of you ever worked the kind of entry-level shit temp job you would be LUCKY to get w/ a UG degree? Ever had a middle manager yell at you for your staple job? Ever want to kill yourself every minute of the day while watching the clock and making $12 an hour? For the people that say you can make $60k out of UG, you are absolutely full of shit. Most UG's won't make the equivalent of that (adjusted for inflation) w/in 5-7 years out of UG. The ceiling for attorneys, even in the dreaded "shitlaw" is well over 100k in most situations....

Every single middle-aged attorney I've ever met is well-off.


180.


I'm not sure looking back in the past is the best way to evaluate the employment prospects of current and future students, though. Indeed, law school used to be a wise investment. Right now it certainly isn't as good of an investment, and it may never see that level of return again.


I'm no math guy, but if a student wants to work in, say, NE and they get in-state and a little scholly at the University of Nebraska, they could graduate for like 70k. Within 5 years they make, say, 90k on the low end. Within 10 years they make, say, 120k. I'd say that is worth the investment.


I would agree with that, but due to the general fear mongering that exists not just in this thread by pretty much everywhere, I'd be inclined to believe the situation you present is a little atypical.

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mallard
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Re: Hey 0Ls! Prove to me that law school is a wise investment.

Postby mallard » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:32 pm

romothesavior wrote:
A'nold wrote:
I'm no math guy, but if a student wants to work in, say, NE and they get in-state and a little scholly at the University of Nebraska, they could graduate for like 70k. Within 5 years they make, say, 90k on the low end. Within 10 years they make, say, 120k. I'd say that is worth the investment.


At first I thought you meant go to Nebraska for New England... :shock:

Mallard does have a point though... most of the unsuccessful lawyers are out of the profession before middle age.

Honestly, I can't really speak to the rest of the 0Ls on here about what is wise and what is not. But for me, law school (particularly the one I am going to) is a good decision for a host of reasons. I also have two relatively viable back-up plans if grades aren't stellar, and I feel like I have a solid plan in place to end up in a good legal job.


This is excellent, but I don't think it's really normal.

That said, I agree that TLSers are not especially starry-eyed about the economy. They might be compared to JDU or xoxo or ATL, but the truly starry-eyed probably don't spend much time doing research on sites like this.

Honestly, though, A'nold isn't really right either. Debt is overpowering for some students. Many people already have debt from undergrad. If you leave law school with six-figure debt and start making $60k a year, of course you'll pay it off eventually, but when? When will you be able to have a family? When will you be able to choose where you live? Will you enjoy your job, or will you be taking what you can get? These are incredibly important considerations. They are important for any applicant, particularly because of the bimodal distribution of legal salaries. (The distribution is becoming less bimodal, but this isn't a good sign: it's because some firms are lowering salaries!) So A'nold's "nobody is making $60k out of undergrad" is kind of a non sequitur not just because it's false, but because it obscures the truth that very few other people are literally losing $60k a year, too.

At my school, from what I hear (including from friends who didn't get biglaw, or only got a couple summer offers, or got no-offered at the end of last summer) is that the focus has changed in student events about law. People are no longer asking how to pick a practice area, how to choose between firms, what to do if they don't like their firm, etc., etc. It's no longer about student choice. Now the main question is how to get an offer and hold on to it. This is important for a couple reasons: not everyone is getting an offer, and you might have to jump through some stupid-ass hoops to get one. You're going to have to say the right things, act the right way with the right people, be strategic. You're going to have to go to the firm social events. Blah blah. Anyway, this long-winded paragraph is just meant to indicate that things really might not be as rosy as you think, and that goes for basically every area of the legal industry and basically every school.

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Re: Hey 0Ls! Prove to me that law school is a wise investment.

Postby keg411 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:35 pm

mallard wrote:I like A'nold's fiery awareness of class issues, but he neglects the fact that for many people, law school was a bad decision precisely because they're unable to continue working as lawyers when they're middle-aged. Really, it shouldn't surprise anyone that middle-aged attorneys are successful!


Even leaving law doesn't mean that it was a bad decision. For most people it isn't an inability, it's a "I don't want to do this anymore, I want to do something else". And it's not like people don't make career changes or go to school or make other life changes all the time. Making a change doesn't mean you necessarily have to regret what you did previously.

And "successful" is also relative. What does it really mean to be considered "successful"? I'd suspect that is different for different people based on their experiences and expectations of themselves.

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Re: Hey 0Ls! Prove to me that law school is a wise investment.

Postby mallard » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:36 pm

keg411 wrote:
mallard wrote:I like A'nold's fiery awareness of class issues, but he neglects the fact that for many people, law school was a bad decision precisely because they're unable to continue working as lawyers when they're middle-aged. Really, it shouldn't surprise anyone that middle-aged attorneys are successful!


Even leaving law doesn't mean that it was a bad decision. For most people it isn't an inability, it's a "I don't want to do this anymore, I want to do something else". And it's not like people don't make career changes or go to school or make other life changes all the time. Making a change doesn't mean you necessarily have to regret what you did previously.

And "successful" is also relative. What does it really mean to be considered "successful"? I'd suspect that is different for different people based on their experiences and expectations of themselves.


Yes, success is indeed a matter of personal perception. Let's see how successful lawyers perceive themselves to be (old article; we can find newer ones soon).

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A'nold
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Re: Hey 0Ls! Prove to me that law school is a wise investment.

Postby A'nold » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:37 pm

A'nold wrote:
traehekat wrote:
bankruptedcasino wrote:

180.


I'm not sure looking back in the past is the best way to evaluate the employment prospects of current and future students, though. Indeed, law school used to be a wise investment. Right now it certainly isn't as good of an investment, and it may never see that level of return again.


I'm no math guy, but if a student wants to work in, say, NE and they get in-state and a little scholly at the University of Nebraska, they could graduate for like 70k. Within 5 years they make, say, 90k on the low end. Within 10 years they make, say, 120k. I'd say that is worth the investment.


I would agree with that, but due to the general fear mongering that exists not just in this thread by pretty much everywhere, I'd be inclined to believe the situation you present is a little atypical.


Fine, let's say that only the top 60% of University of Nebraska law students ever get a legal job. The other 40% should drop out after 1st year and just go on about their lives, if they are so risk averse. They could hit up the whole local networking approach even if below median, but many people aren't willing to put themselves out there. Anyway, some people basically have no other choice. I am lucky in that I absolutely love the challenge of law school and have a ton of interest in this profession. Those that are at risk of not passing the bar and those that are just in it for the money (both of these situations make up a large bunch of the 1/3 of law students that end up not getting a post-grad job) should never go to law school. Thus, someone with a 140, 2.2, should not take Cooley up on their "give it a try" offer nor should someone entirely interested in biglaw or bust attend even UVA or NYU, for example.

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traehekat
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Re: Hey 0Ls! Prove to me that law school is a wise investment.

Postby traehekat » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:38 pm

keg411 wrote:
mallard wrote:I like A'nold's fiery awareness of class issues, but he neglects the fact that for many people, law school was a bad decision precisely because they're unable to continue working as lawyers when they're middle-aged. Really, it shouldn't surprise anyone that middle-aged attorneys are successful!


Even leaving law doesn't mean that it was a bad decision. For most people it isn't an inability, it's a "I don't want to do this anymore, I want to do something else". And it's not like people don't make career changes or go to school or make other life changes all the time. Making a change doesn't mean you necessarily have to regret what you did previously.

And "successful" is also relative. What does it really mean to be considered "successful"? I'd suspect that is different for different people based on their experiences and expectations of themselves.


Problem is most people go into law school with extremely high expectations that they are unlikely to meet. Regardless, I wouldn't say that graduating with $150,000 in debt and being shut out of employment is considered "successful" by any stretch of the word.

keg411
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Re: Hey 0Ls! Prove to me that law school is a wise investment.

Postby keg411 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:41 pm

mallard wrote:
keg411 wrote:
mallard wrote:I like A'nold's fiery awareness of class issues, but he neglects the fact that for many people, law school was a bad decision precisely because they're unable to continue working as lawyers when they're middle-aged. Really, it shouldn't surprise anyone that middle-aged attorneys are successful!


Even leaving law doesn't mean that it was a bad decision. For most people it isn't an inability, it's a "I don't want to do this anymore, I want to do something else". And it's not like people don't make career changes or go to school or make other life changes all the time. Making a change doesn't mean you necessarily have to regret what you did previously.

And "successful" is also relative. What does it really mean to be considered "successful"? I'd suspect that is different for different people based on their experiences and expectations of themselves.


Yes, success is indeed a matter of personal perception. Let's see how successful lawyers perceive themselves to be (old article; we can find newer ones soon).


Hence why a lot of lawyers say, "I don't like this, I want to do something else". See my first paragraph.

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mallard
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Re: Hey 0Ls! Prove to me that law school is a wise investment.

Postby mallard » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:42 pm

keg411 wrote:Hence why a lot of lawyers say, "I don't like this, I want to do something else". See my first paragraph.


But for most people, I do think this indicates that it was a poor decision.

Minnesota3L
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Re: Hey 0Ls! Prove to me that law school is a wise investment.

Postby Minnesota3L » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:45 pm

A'nold wrote:Have any of you ever worked the kind of entry-level shit temp job you would be LUCKY to get w/ a UG degree? Ever had a middle manager yell at you for your staple job? Ever want to kill yourself every minute of the day while watching the clock and making $12 an hour?
Every single middle-aged attorney I've ever met is well-off.



I see a couple of groups here.
Last edited by Minnesota3L on Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PKSebben
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Re: Hey 0Ls! Prove to me that law school is a wise investment.

Postby PKSebben » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:46 pm

It shows all signs at the moment of never rebounding to the "good old days."


Really? Like, what kind of signs? Never is a long time.




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