The Future elitist law schools?

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DanInALionsDen
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby DanInALionsDen » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:07 pm

Thomas Jefferson wrote:
newrich wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Vandy will reach Gulc, Cornell levels.

Agreed...


+1, begrudgingly


I think I may turn into the OperaSoprano of GULC, but... I think people are making a lot out of one good placement year, and don't take into account that Vandy has a very small class, which makes percentages gains (and losses) in hiring seem more volatile than they are numerically. People on here have also said that Stanford will never eclipse YH, if only because S is in CA and YH are in the Northeast. I think the same logic holds for Vandy. It's in Tennessee, a state with a reputable country/rock music background, but which I doubt will ever be associated with legal intellectualism...sorry TN.

We'll see. It's funny how everyone thought Texas would be the one to overtake Georgetown, until Vandy pulled surprising placement numbers this year.

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Thomas Jefferson
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby Thomas Jefferson » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:12 pm

DanInALionsDen wrote:
Thomas Jefferson wrote:
newrich wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Vandy will reach Gulc, Cornell levels.

Agreed...


+1, begrudgingly


I think I may turn into the OperaSoprano of GULC, but... I think people are making a lot out of one good placement year, and don't take into account that Vandy has a very small class, which makes percentages gains (and losses) in hiring seem more volatile than they are numerically. People on here have also said that Stanford will never eclipse YH, if only because S is in CA and YH are in the Northeast. I think the same logic holds for Vandy. It's in Tennessee, a state with a reputable country/rock music background, but which I doubt will ever be associated with legal intellectualism...sorry TN.

We'll see. It's funny how everyone thought Texas would be the one to overtake Georgetown, until Vandy pulled surprising placement numbers this year.


I think both Vandy and UT will overtake GULC precisely because of their location: their markets have more room for growth than the oversaturated places GULC tends to place.

Then again, at the rate we're going the federal government will be pretty much the entirety of the economy, making DC the go-to, and only, market.
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MJMD
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby MJMD » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:12 pm

Barolo wrote:There's not a lot of air at the top...


That's the real problem, isn't it: how many schools can the American mind incorporate under the heading of "elite"? America has universities like Emory, Washington, Wisconsin - Madison and UCLA that are acknowledged as among the very best in the country; but because no one is willing to downgrade the T14 (nor has any reason to), these other faculties end up lumped with a bunch of middling ones into an amorphous, undifferentiated "Tier 2", and never get the props they deserve.

Without taking anything away from the T14, I think that these other prestigious schools easily have the potential to match the quality of the education provided by the Ivy League, even if they can never really exceed it. The problem is the bottom 100 garbage schools: they're the only reason something like the USNWR is necessary. If there were half as many of them, and no TTTs, I think more Americans would be able to instinctually distinguish "great" from "just ok," and we wouldn't have the rigidity of the T14 holding "up-and-comers" back year after year.
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QandAphorism
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby QandAphorism » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:12 pm

Princeton Law. (within a decade or next extended bull market, whatever comes first)

Trust me.

Tautology
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby Tautology » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:18 pm

bk1 wrote:
Tautology wrote:Don't forget number of computers! If they just add a few computers they'll be right up there with Harvard, Georgetown and NYU!


Adorable 'tar. :)


:)

sdv
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby sdv » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:26 pm

DanInALionsDen wrote:
Thomas Jefferson wrote:
newrich wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Vandy will reach Gulc, Cornell levels.

Agreed...


+1, begrudgingly


I think I may turn into the OperaSoprano of GULC, but... I think people are making a lot out of one good placement year, and don't take into account that Vandy has a very small class, which makes percentages gains (and losses) in hiring seem more volatile than they are numerically. People on here have also said that Stanford will never eclipse YH, if only because S is in CA and YH are in the Northeast. I think the same logic holds for Vandy. It's in Tennessee, a state with a reputable country/rock music background, but which I doubt will ever be associated with legal intellectualism...sorry TN.

We'll see. It's funny how everyone thought Texas would be the one to overtake Georgetown, until Vandy pulled surprising placement numbers this year.


And upstate ny IS a mecca of...anything? or Michigan? the point that was being made, I think, was that the schools with a chance to improve are those with room to grow even more powerful regionally. The point being that regional schools in Chicago or new york can only improve their status so much with better schools in front of them, whereas Vanderbilt and Duke have no one around them in any city you want to pick in the South, national placement, and nowhere to go but up.

I don't get the small class size comment - I'd say large class sizes like those at Georgetown and Harvard are the anomaly - many more schools enroll around 200 students a year like Vanderbilt does.

and what state, exactly, would one consider a mecca of "legal intellectualism"? Believe it or not, smart people exist outside of the northeast, and those people deserve a good law school too.

On another note, the arguments against Fordham apply to Emory as well - it runs 3rd in it's general market (the south) and doesn't even dominate its own state (UGA). It may continue to nudge its numbers upward, but its highly questionable practice of lowballing the highest quality candidates mean that the very best law school candidates who want to go to school in the south will continue to choose Vandy, Duke, and even UGA for the forseable future.

Tautology
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby Tautology » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:31 pm

What schools in the past have had a huge jump over long-established law schools? I think NYU's rise to prominence was pretty impressive, any others who have?

sumus romani
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby sumus romani » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:43 pm

newrich wrote:SO, TLSers what law schools do you think are good or even very good right now, but will join the AMAZING law schools in say a decade from now? Any predictions? If so, explain why..I'm going to say Fordham Law http://law.fordham.edu/18112.htm They raised 100 million dollars for the law school. In addition to this, the entire university UG, Grad busin, Education, is transforming. When I say this, I mean it is going from an already pretty good school, and it will be a GREAT school within a decade.



Just to put this in perspective, NYU Law just raised over $450 million (that is just the law school's own funding drive). The sorry fact is that $100 million does a lot less than you might think in Manhattan. $100 million might be great for the rankings because of per capita student spending, but this is not something that will lower tuition, increase aid, or increase quality of life for Fordham Law students. The money has to go to infrastructure and faculty salaries, etc., because it is in one of the most expensive cities in the world.

Also, the only school that might be elite in the future, but is not currently elite, is Irvine. It is currently in the 5th tier of law schools. It may very well debute in around 20th place in the rankings. That ranking might not be elite, but the school can move up from there.

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ArthurEdens
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby ArthurEdens » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:49 pm

Emory could potentially move up to Vandy/USC territory as Atlanta continues to grow. The city is #1 in the nation in anticipated job growth, so presumably the legal market will grow accordingly. Although Vandy and Duke can poach jobs there, being the #1 law school actually located in the city has to count for something.

All in all, though, I doubt there will be too much movement. There are relatively few exceptions over the past 20 years, such as Boston University shooting up 20 or so spots.

miamiman
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby miamiman » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:50 pm

I love how the ridiculosuly speculative, somewhat retarded OP has generated 3 pp in subsequent law school-related soothsaying.

BenJ
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby BenJ » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:50 pm

Tautology wrote:What schools in the past have had a huge jump over long-established law schools? I think NYU's rise to prominence was pretty impressive, any others who have?


I think WUSTL and BU gained a lot of ground in the past 30 years, which really shows that there's something of a ceiling to such gains (possible to break into the T30 with a lot of money and effort, but not higher, basically what I would guess UC Irvine will do).

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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby MJMD » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:06 pm

ArthurEdens wrote:Emory could potentially move up to Vandy/USC territory as Atlanta continues to grow. The city is #1 in the nation in anticipated job growth, so presumably the legal market will grow accordingly. Although Vandy and Duke can poach jobs there, being the #1 law school actually located in the city has to count for something.

All in all, though, I doubt there will be too much movement. There are relatively few exceptions over the past 20 years, such as Boston University shooting up 20 or so spots.


The only reason that Emory came to mind (and I'm Canadian, so I have no dog in this fight, just a beaver) is because the only way you could get some real movement at the very top of the rankings with the way things are now would be to have a major cultural and economic shift toward the Southern U.S. states. I think that these rankings of law school prestige and influence are one of the few areas where you really do still see a substantial anti-Southern bias in the U.S., or at least a cultural divide between Southerners and Northerners. The South used to have influence on U.S. policy comparable to what Quebec has in Canada, but while Quebec largely still has that influence (because in a lot of areas it is mandated by law, and Quebec remains largely insulated by language), the South has lost a great deal in many areas (witness the all-Ivy SCOTUS).

But with the current state of the economy it's very possible that there could be an economic shift toward the U.S. South, which has some of the lowest wages and taxes in the country (see: Toyota and Honda); and regions that have traditionally been underdeveloped present the greatest opportunities to late-stage capitalism. Virginia, Duke, Vandy, Emory, UF, and Tulane could all potentially stand to gain if that happens.
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r973
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby r973 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:07 pm

I agree with the original poster that Fordham has the potential to jump up in the rankings in the long term after the completion of the new law school building. I am not predicting it will overtake NYU or Columbia, but might jump into the teens or at least the low 20s in rankings. The rankings include stupid factors such as number of books in the library, classrooms, and building decor. The current law school building has been criticized as being too small and out of date. When that changes, therefore, I see a jump occurring. (And I think the recognition is LONG overdue!)
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DanInALionsDen
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby DanInALionsDen » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:07 pm

Thomas Jefferson wrote:
I think both Vandy and UT will overtake GULC precisely because of their location: their markets have more room for growth than the oversaturated places GULC tends to place.

Then again, at the rate we're going the federal government will be pretty much the entirety of the economy, making DC the go-to, and only, market.


Hmm. According to Vandy's ABA data 59 out of 152 took the bar in NY and CA, (with a bar passage rate ~5.5% below the state average in NY). I would expect that the number of Vandy grads looking for employment in the major markets will increase, not decrease, as the school tries to climb the rankings ladder. I don't see a major shift in huge corporate or government interests away from NYC, Philly, DC, Chicago and LA, so I'm not sure I understand your "room for growth" argument. Vandy grads are going to have to go to biglaw just like everyone else, biglaw isn't going to come to them.

As you said, I think that if any city is going to see an expansion of its legal market in the future, it's DC.

UT is a thing unto itself, but I don't see it surpassing GULC, at least in terms of rankings any time soon, if ever. I think Vandy has a stronger case. UT places worse by every metric that I've read, even in the Leitner rankings.

By the way, in the scholarly impact section of the Leitner rankings, Leitner discusses flaws in ranking systems that have to compare large schools like GULC to small schools like Vandy (although he is speaking specifically about professorial citation rankings as a measure of faculty distinction). He says:

"Needless to say, citation studies are but one measure of the scholarly distinction of faculties. They tend to favor smaller faculties over larger faculties, which no doubt explains why schools like Texas and Virginia and Georgetown come out behind schools like Vanderbilt and Cornell, even though I don’t think any informed scholarly judgment would rate them that way."

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romothesavior
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby romothesavior » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:09 pm

BenJ wrote:
Tautology wrote:What schools in the past have had a huge jump over long-established law schools? I think NYU's rise to prominence was pretty impressive, any others who have?


I think WUSTL and BU gained a lot of ground in the past 30 years, which really shows that there's something of a ceiling to such gains (possible to break into the T30 with a lot of money and effort, but not higher, basically what I would guess UC Irvine will do).


WUSTL's gains have been even more recent than that. Last 10-15 years. But I agree about the glass ceiling thing, they won't go up much more rankings- wise (although they may pass USC soon).

One thing that I think is a possibility, however, is that WUSTL may be able to distance itself from its Midwestern peers (UIUC, Iowa, Minnesota, ND, Wisconsin) in coming years, not in ranking but in hiring and prestige. I'm not talking about this happening overnight or even in my time there, but in the next 5-10 years. They have been hauling ass to bring in firms to OCI and have been really successful at at. Although firms are being conservative now, I think this huge OCI/firm recruiting effort could pay off big dividends if and when things pick back up.

***DISCLAIMER***
This post is the sole opinion of romothesavior, and is no way endorsed by or affiliated with Washington University, Top-Law-Schools, or even rational thought. It is pure speculation based on nothing more than anecdotal evidence, wild assumptions, and the utter optimism of a WUSTL troll. This post is not advice, nor is it intelligible, and romothesavior is not liable for the consequences of any decisions made on the basis of this post.

DanInALionsDen
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby DanInALionsDen » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:24 pm

sdv wrote:
DanInALionsDen wrote:
I think I may turn into the OperaSoprano of GULC, but... I think people are making a lot out of one good placement year, and don't take into account that Vandy has a very small class, which makes percentages gains (and losses) in hiring seem more volatile than they are numerically. People on here have also said that Stanford will never eclipse YH, if only because S is in CA and YH are in the Northeast. I think the same logic holds for Vandy. It's in Tennessee, a state with a reputable country/rock music background, but which I doubt will ever be associated with legal intellectualism...sorry TN.

We'll see. It's funny how everyone thought Texas would be the one to overtake Georgetown, until Vandy pulled surprising placement numbers this year.


And upstate ny IS a mecca of...anything? or Michigan? the point that was being made, I think, was that the schools with a chance to improve are those with room to grow even more powerful regionally. The point being that regional schools in Chicago or new york can only improve their status so much with better schools in front of them, whereas Vanderbilt and Duke have no one around them in any city you want to pick in the South, national placement, and nowhere to go but up.

I don't get the small class size comment - I'd say large class sizes like those at Georgetown and Harvard are the anomaly - many more schools enroll around 200 students a year like Vanderbilt does.

and what state, exactly, would one consider a mecca of "legal intellectualism"? Believe it or not, smart people exist outside of the northeast, and those people deserve a good law school too.

On another note, the arguments against Fordham apply to Emory as well - it runs 3rd in it's general market (the south) and doesn't even dominate its own state (UGA). It may continue to nudge its numbers upward, but its highly questionable practice of lowballing the highest quality candidates mean that the very best law school candidates who want to go to school in the south will continue to choose Vandy, Duke, and even UGA for the forseable future.


Did you just learn the word mecca? You seem to really enjoy using it.

Anyway, the issue isn't whether or not a law school is the best in its region. The OP's question was which law schools will become "elitist"--although I think he/she meant elite. The way a law school becomes elite is by becoming nationally competitive, not regionally. Duke being the best law school in North Carolina isn't going to send it catapulting in the rankings over CCNMVP, let's be serious. Duke dropped a rank this year, it didn't climb. As for Vandy, it's fine that Vandy has plenty of room to grow in TN which will allow it to become a regional powerhouse--in fact, this isn't even a point that needs making, it already is a regional powerhouse, far above other regional schools like Chicago Kent (or even UIUC). The real question regarding rank, and an advancement into the realm of the elite schools is whether Vandy will be able to consistently place students into those same saturated markets as the T14, which would then allow it to increase selectivity and garner higher peer review scores.
Last edited by DanInALionsDen on Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

d34d9823
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby d34d9823 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:29 pm

DanInALionsDen wrote:Anyway, the issue isn't whether or not a law school is the best in its region. The OP's question was which law schools will become "elitist"--although I think he/she meant elite. The way a law school becomes elite is by becoming nationally competitive, not regionally. Duke being the best law school in North Carolina isn't going to send it catapulting in the rankings over CCNMVP, let's be serious. Duke dropped a rank this year, it didn't climb. As for Vandy, it's fine that Vandy has plenty of room to grow in TN which will allow it to become a regional powerhouse--in fact, this isn't even a point that needs making, it already is a regional powerhouse, far above other regional schools like Chicago Kent (or even UIUC). The real question regarding rank, and an advancement into the realm of the elite schools is whether Vandy will be able to consistently place students into those same saturated markets as the the T14, which would then allow it to increase selectivity and garner higher peer review scores.

This is the key insight here, which makes me think that it almost doesn't matter where the school is located; rather, the impression made by its students is the key factor.

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Thomas Jefferson
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby Thomas Jefferson » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:31 pm

DanInALionsDen wrote:
Thomas Jefferson wrote:
I think both Vandy and UT will overtake GULC precisely because of their location: their markets have more room for growth than the oversaturated places GULC tends to place.

Then again, at the rate we're going the federal government will be pretty much the entirety of the economy, making DC the go-to, and only, market.


Hmm. According to Vandy's ABA data 59 out of 152 took the bar in NY and CA, (with a bar passage rate ~5.5% below the state average in NY). I would expect that the number of Vandy grads looking for employment in the major markets will increase, not decrease, as the school tries to climb the rankings ladder. I don't see a major shift in huge corporate or government interests away from NYC, Philly, DC, Chicago and LA, so I'm not sure I understand your "room for growth" argument. Vandy grads are going to have to go to biglaw just like everyone else, biglaw isn't going to come to them.

As you said, I think that if any city is going to see an expansion of its legal market in the future, it's DC.

UT is a thing unto itself, but I don't see it surpassing GULC, at least in terms of rankings any time soon, if ever. I think Vandy has a stronger case. UT places worse by every metric that I've read, even in the Leitner rankings.

By the way, in the scholarly impact section of the Leitner rankings, Leitner discusses flaws in ranking systems that have to compare large schools like GULC to small schools like Vandy (although he is speaking specifically about professorial citation rankings as a measure of faculty distinction). He says:

"Needless to say, citation studies are but one measure of the scholarly distinction of faculties. They tend to favor smaller faculties over larger faculties, which no doubt explains why schools like Texas and Virginia and Georgetown come out behind schools like Vanderbilt and Cornell, even though I don’t think any informed scholarly judgment would rate them that way."


Actually, and I need to be careful not to overstate this, the point is that the South is poised for the most growth. Therefore, there will be more jobs in the South. Presumably, that will include legal jobs, which will presumably include biglaw jobs. As there are more biglaw opportunities in the areas Vandy and UT are strong, they should have stronger biglaw placement. I'm just a 0L, so I don't claim to be an authority on legal hiring or anything, but I've read in a number of places that the South has the largest room for growth, which I'm assuming will lead to more biglaw opportunities there.

DanInALionsDen
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby DanInALionsDen » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:35 pm

Thomas Jefferson wrote:
DanInALionsDen wrote:
Thomas Jefferson wrote:
I think both Vandy and UT will overtake GULC precisely because of their location: their markets have more room for growth than the oversaturated places GULC tends to place.

Then again, at the rate we're going the federal government will be pretty much the entirety of the economy, making DC the go-to, and only, market.


Hmm. According to Vandy's ABA data 59 out of 152 took the bar in NY and CA, (with a bar passage rate ~5.5% below the state average in NY). I would expect that the number of Vandy grads looking for employment in the major markets will increase, not decrease, as the school tries to climb the rankings ladder. I don't see a major shift in huge corporate or government interests away from NYC, Philly, DC, Chicago and LA, so I'm not sure I understand your "room for growth" argument. Vandy grads are going to have to go to biglaw just like everyone else, biglaw isn't going to come to them.

As you said, I think that if any city is going to see an expansion of its legal market in the future, it's DC.

UT is a thing unto itself, but I don't see it surpassing GULC, at least in terms of rankings any time soon, if ever. I think Vandy has a stronger case. UT places worse by every metric that I've read, even in the Leitner rankings.

By the way, in the scholarly impact section of the Leitner rankings, Leitner discusses flaws in ranking systems that have to compare large schools like GULC to small schools like Vandy (although he is speaking specifically about professorial citation rankings as a measure of faculty distinction). He says:

"Needless to say, citation studies are but one measure of the scholarly distinction of faculties. They tend to favor smaller faculties over larger faculties, which no doubt explains why schools like Texas and Virginia and Georgetown come out behind schools like Vanderbilt and Cornell, even though I don’t think any informed scholarly judgment would rate them that way."


Actually, and I need to be careful not to overstate this, the point is that the South is poised for the most growth. Therefore, there will be more jobs in the South. Presumably, that will include legal jobs, which will presumably include biglaw jobs. As there are more biglaw opportunities in the areas Vandy and UT are strong, they should have stronger biglaw placement. I'm just a 0L, so I don't claim to be an authority on legal hiring or anything, but I've read in a number of places that the South has the largest room for growth, which I'm assuming will lead to more biglaw opportunities there.


I'm also a 0L, so what do I know, but I doubt biglaw (or the corporate market) is as mobile as you seem to imagine it to be. The Northeast has been the center of the American business since there was such a thing as American business. I just don't see that changing.

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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby miamiman » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:36 pm

Ugh, I hate to get involved in a stupid thread like this. That said, and I've said this before, if the state of Michigan continues on its path towards failure, I don't see how it's possible that UM will maintain its vaunted status as a solid T10.

::UM trolls pounce:: yes, I know UM is virtually independent of the state as it relates to its funding. and, yes, I know that it places virtually all of its grads outside of Michigan. Even still, I think there will be a prestige hit to the school so long as it operates in a state that bears a disproportionate brunt of the recession. Hiring partners in Miami have alluded to such a possibility and I think it just makes sense intuitively.

Does this mean UM will fall off a cliff? no, I don't think that's fair. I do think, however, that if other peer schools situated in comparatively healthier industrial areas could leapfrog them.

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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby d34d9823 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:41 pm

miamiman wrote:Ugh, I hate to get involved in a stupid thread like this. That said, and I've said this before, if the state of Michigan continues on its path towards failure, I don't see how it's possible that UM will maintain its vaunted status as a solid T10.

::UM trolls pounce:: yes, I know UM is virtually independent of the state as it relates to its funding. and, yes, I know that it places virtually all of its grads outside of Michigan. Even still, I think there will be a prestige hit to the school so long as it operates in a state that bears a disproportionate brunt of the recession. Hiring partners in Miami have alluded to such a possibility and I think it just makes sense intuitively.

Does this mean UM will fall off a cliff? no, I don't think that's fair. I do think, however, that if other peer schools situated in comparatively healthier industrial areas could leapfrog them.

Your logic doesn't make any sense to me. I doubt anyone is shallow enough to devalue the university just because Detroit is an urban wasteland. Given that they place in Chicago, New York, etc.; I'm pretty sure that the condition of those economies is the crucial factor.

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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby DanInALionsDen » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:41 pm

miamiman wrote:Ugh, I hate to get involved in a stupid thread like this. That said, and I've said this before, if the state of Michigan continues on its path towards failure, I don't see how it's possible that UM will maintain its vaunted status as a solid T10.

::UM trolls pounce:: yes, I know UM is virtually independent of the state as it relates to its funding. and, yes, I know that it places virtually all of its grads outside of Michigan. Even still, I think there will be a prestige hit to the school so long as it operates in a state that bears a disproportionate brunt of the recession. Hiring partners in Miami have alluded to such a possibility and I think it just makes sense intuitively.

Does this mean UM will fall off a cliff? no, I don't think that's fair. I do think, however, that if other peer schools situated in comparatively healthier industrial areas could leapfrog them.


Interesting. Do you make the same assertions about Stanford, Berkeley, and UCLA?

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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby miamiman » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:45 pm

DanInALionsDen wrote:
miamiman wrote:Ugh, I hate to get involved in a stupid thread like this. That said, and I've said this before, if the state of Michigan continues on its path towards failure, I don't see how it's possible that UM will maintain its vaunted status as a solid T10.

::UM trolls pounce:: yes, I know UM is virtually independent of the state as it relates to its funding. and, yes, I know that it places virtually all of its grads outside of Michigan. Even still, I think there will be a prestige hit to the school so long as it operates in a state that bears a disproportionate brunt of the recession. Hiring partners in Miami have alluded to such a possibility and I think it just makes sense intuitively.

Does this mean UM will fall off a cliff? no, I don't think that's fair. I do think, however, that if other peer schools situated in comparatively healthier industrial areas could leapfrog them.


Interesting. Do you make the same assertions about Stanford, Berkeley, and UCLA?


Please. Michigan's financial apocalypse isn't even remotely analogous to California's troubles.

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Thomas Jefferson
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby Thomas Jefferson » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:46 pm

DanInALionsDen wrote:
Thomas Jefferson wrote:
DanInALionsDen wrote:
Thomas Jefferson wrote:
I think both Vandy and UT will overtake GULC precisely because of their location: their markets have more room for growth than the oversaturated places GULC tends to place.

Then again, at the rate we're going the federal government will be pretty much the entirety of the economy, making DC the go-to, and only, market.


Hmm. According to Vandy's ABA data 59 out of 152 took the bar in NY and CA, (with a bar passage rate ~5.5% below the state average in NY). I would expect that the number of Vandy grads looking for employment in the major markets will increase, not decrease, as the school tries to climb the rankings ladder. I don't see a major shift in huge corporate or government interests away from NYC, Philly, DC, Chicago and LA, so I'm not sure I understand your "room for growth" argument. Vandy grads are going to have to go to biglaw just like everyone else, biglaw isn't going to come to them.

As you said, I think that if any city is going to see an expansion of its legal market in the future, it's DC.

UT is a thing unto itself, but I don't see it surpassing GULC, at least in terms of rankings any time soon, if ever. I think Vandy has a stronger case. UT places worse by every metric that I've read, even in the Leitner rankings.

By the way, in the scholarly impact section of the Leitner rankings, Leitner discusses flaws in ranking systems that have to compare large schools like GULC to small schools like Vandy (although he is speaking specifically about professorial citation rankings as a measure of faculty distinction). He says:

"Needless to say, citation studies are but one measure of the scholarly distinction of faculties. They tend to favor smaller faculties over larger faculties, which no doubt explains why schools like Texas and Virginia and Georgetown come out behind schools like Vanderbilt and Cornell, even though I don’t think any informed scholarly judgment would rate them that way."


Actually, and I need to be careful not to overstate this, the point is that the South is poised for the most growth. Therefore, there will be more jobs in the South. Presumably, that will include legal jobs, which will presumably include biglaw jobs. As there are more biglaw opportunities in the areas Vandy and UT are strong, they should have stronger biglaw placement. I'm just a 0L, so I don't claim to be an authority on legal hiring or anything, but I've read in a number of places that the South has the largest room for growth, which I'm assuming will lead to more biglaw opportunities there.


I'm also a 0L, so what do I know, but I doubt biglaw (or the corporate market) is as mobile as you seem to imagine it to be. The Northeast has been the center of the American business since there was such a thing as American business. I just don't see that changing.


Do I think Atlanta or someplace is going to overtake NYC as THE corporate/biglaw market? Of course not. That's why I tried to caution that what I said shouldn't be overstated. But UT and Vandy don't need to go far to catch GULC. Small marginal gains should be enough.

sumus romani
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Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:04 pm

Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby sumus romani » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:47 pm

DanInALionsDen wrote:
miamiman wrote:Ugh, I hate to get involved in a stupid thread like this. That said, and I've said this before, if the state of Michigan continues on its path towards failure, I don't see how it's possible that UM will maintain its vaunted status as a solid T10.

::UM trolls pounce:: yes, I know UM is virtually independent of the state as it relates to its funding. and, yes, I know that it places virtually all of its grads outside of Michigan. Even still, I think there will be a prestige hit to the school so long as it operates in a state that bears a disproportionate brunt of the recession. Hiring partners in Miami have alluded to such a possibility and I think it just makes sense intuitively.

Does this mean UM will fall off a cliff? no, I don't think that's fair. I do think, however, that if other peer schools situated in comparatively healthier industrial areas could leapfrog them.


Interesting. Do you make the same assertions about Stanford, Berkeley, and UCLA?



Not sure if S belongs on the list with state schools, but I see the point of the overall question. I only question why S is on the list because B and presumbably UCLA are going to have skyrocketing tuition over the next 5 years (at least) while the California state budget returns to balance. Also, it would seem easier for California to correct itself than Michigan, given the nature of their state economies.




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