The Future elitist law schools?

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holydonkey
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby holydonkey » Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:42 am

miamiman wrote:
holydonkey wrote:Logic fail. I hear princeton undergrad is an absolute ttt because new jersey's economy is in the crapper right now. Better go to university of north dakota since the economy is strong there.
obvious michigan trolls are obvious? michigan is not princeton.
And Cornell and Georgetown Law are not Michigan Law. What? The point is that claiming a state's economy impacts a national law school's reputation, faculty, and students is not a strong argument for the very reasons you gave before making your claim. Sure, I'll troll for Michigan, but I would make the same argument if we were talking about Berkeley.

miamiman wrote:Michigan has nothing at this point. They have a reinvestment plan based upon allocation into the services sector and engineering, an economy still leveraged heavily in favor of a dead domestic auto industry, Jeff Daniels from Dumb and Dumber pitching the state on CNBC, and the University of Michigan.
Michigan has nothing? What? Are you high? Michigan has 21 Fortune 500 Companies. And the reinvestment plan includes lowering business taxes in the state, which is exactly what it should do. Detroit is undergoing a downsizing to economize the services they provide and promote growth in the center city. Michigan is taking steps (not as many as they should, but steps) to correct their problems. The only useful thing California has proposed to deal with their economic crisis is to legalize pot, and that will fail in a vote this year.

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dresden doll
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby dresden doll » Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:54 am

I believe TITCR is: HYS/CCN/MPBV/DCNG.

Just in case no one's said it yet.

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romothesavior
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby romothesavior » Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:57 am

dresden doll wrote:I believe TITCR is: HYS/CCN/MPBV/DCNG.

Just in case no one's said it yet.


I'm not a "T12" or "T13" troll, but it is pretty hard to consider Duke and Northwestern peers with Cornell and Georgetown. Especially Northwestern, and especially ITE.

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dresden doll
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby dresden doll » Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:03 am

romothesavior wrote:
dresden doll wrote:I believe TITCR is: HYS/CCN/MPBV/DCNG.

Just in case no one's said it yet.


I'm not a "T12" or "T13" troll, but it is pretty hard to consider Duke and Northwestern peers with Cornell and Georgetown. Especially Northwestern, and especially ITE.


Meh. My overall point stands. It's awfully crowded at the top and I do not see any 'future elitist schools' jostling their way in.

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mallard
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby mallard » Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:07 am

Yeah. Take dresden's post to mean: the future elite law schools will consist of, at most, the current elite law schools.

Fark-o-vision
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby Fark-o-vision » Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:19 am

Those who want to claim California's troubles are analogous to Michigan's are so stupid that my responding to them actually reflects negatively on my own intelligence. It's like arguing about Bigfoot. California is in trouble because massive public debt, spending based on overly optimistic numbers, and a rapidly increasing population with a decreasing salary base (Re:white flight). Michigan's troubles are based on the disappearance of an industry that it too heavily relied upon and general industrial flight that has resulted in population flight, leaving large areas of abandoned urban communities that only serve to further drag down area.

The question isn't if UM is tied too heavily to the state. Everyone knows it places outside, that it finances independently, and that it has a national reputation. What is going to be a challenge for it is 1) keeping instructors who can't effectively or efficiently work in their industry or DO ANYTHING remotely interesting. Would you take 200K to work in Irvine, or 220K to work in a devastated, crime ridden urban wasteland with no hope of ever recovering in a meaningful way? If Biglaw melts down in the way everyone seems to think it has and never truly recovers, do you think biglaw firms will continue to deal with the additional expense of recruiting at UM, or will they go to the next best option in their local market?

Not that it happens all at once, but because of the circular nature of rankings it seems that a couple of firms deciding to stay in Chicago, or NY, or LA, could lead to a down tick which then only makes UM seem less important. As slow attrition makes them less and less important, and their presence on the judiciary decreases, they slip down and down until they implode.

I'm not suggesting it will happen. Only that the scenario seems a hell of a lot more likely than Stanford, or Berkeley, or even UCLA/USC melting down.

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romothesavior
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby romothesavior » Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:34 am

Fark-o-vision wrote:
The question isn't if UM is tied too heavily to the state. Everyone knows it places outside, that it finances independently, and that it has a national reputation. What is going to be a challenge for it is 1) keeping instructors who can't effectively or efficiently work in their industry or DO ANYTHING remotely interesting. Would you take 200K to work in Irvine, or 220K to work in a devastated, crime ridden urban wasteland with no hope of ever recovering in a meaningful way? If Biglaw melts down in the way everyone seems to think it has and never truly recovers, do you think biglaw firms will continue to deal with the additional expense of recruiting at UM, or will they go to the next best option in their local market?


You do know University of Michigan isn't in "a devastated, crime ridden urban wasteland with no hope of every recovering in a meaningful way?" Have you ever even been to Ann Arbor?

Fark-o-vision
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby Fark-o-vision » Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:42 am

romothesavior wrote:
Fark-o-vision wrote:
The question isn't if UM is tied too heavily to the state. Everyone knows it places outside, that it finances independently, and that it has a national reputation. What is going to be a challenge for it is 1) keeping instructors who can't effectively or efficiently work in their industry or DO ANYTHING remotely interesting. Would you take 200K to work in Irvine, or 220K to work in a devastated, crime ridden urban wasteland with no hope of ever recovering in a meaningful way? If Biglaw melts down in the way everyone seems to think it has and never truly recovers, do you think biglaw firms will continue to deal with the additional expense of recruiting at UM, or will they go to the next best option in their local market?


You do know University of Michigan isn't in "a devastated, crime ridden urban wasteland with no hope of every recovering in a meaningful way?" Have you ever even been to Ann Arbor?


That would require being in Michigan and who, honestly, chooses that for their life? 1) Residents of Michigan, the poor bastards not knowing any better, and 2) UM students who couldn't get that kind of grift from the other t14.

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badwithpseudonyms
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby badwithpseudonyms » Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:52 am

Not saying that this is a comprehensive list of the most happening places in America, but... http://realestate.yahoo.com/promo/ameri ... ities-2010 (See #4)

EDIT: tl;dr, just sayin' based on the last few posts.

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Cupidity
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby Cupidity » Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:59 am

On a serious note, back to the original question. I think in the next decade you will see a serious rise in the rank of schools that dominate secondary markets. With the death of NYC/LA/DC/Chicago--there will be significant room for schools like Emory, Vanderbilt, Texas, University of Washington and Notre Dame, Schools like UCLA (2nd best in its market), Michigan (2nd best in its market), Cornell (Third best in its market) and GULC (Second or Third best in its market) will make room for them.

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Barolo
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby Barolo » Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:03 am

Yeah, seriously. Ann Arbor is a fantastic city and the state of Michigan (though hurting a bit right now) is full of great places (and tons of fresh water -- do not discount the future value of resources). Detroit is even showing signs of improvement.

Fark-o-vision
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby Fark-o-vision » Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:06 am

I live in LA (well...) and it isn't dead. While I'm sad to hear about the passing of the other cities--I was in Chicago in February of 09 so this must be recent--I do want to stress that life continues in Los Angeles.

Times are tough. There have been tough times before. In Los Angeles we call these times "recessions". It's a cycle of the market, somewhat predictable, and is usually followed by a period of robust activity. For those who doubt it will be the case this time, well, I have some literature from '01 you should read. The prophets of doom were out in full force then.

I'm not suggesting that things haven't changed. I'm suggesting that anyone who claims to know how they have changed is a moron.

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romothesavior
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby romothesavior » Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:11 am

Fark-o-vision wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
Fark-o-vision wrote:
The question isn't if UM is tied too heavily to the state. Everyone knows it places outside, that it finances independently, and that it has a national reputation. What is going to be a challenge for it is 1) keeping instructors who can't effectively or efficiently work in their industry or DO ANYTHING remotely interesting. Would you take 200K to work in Irvine, or 220K to work in a devastated, crime ridden urban wasteland with no hope of ever recovering in a meaningful way? If Biglaw melts down in the way everyone seems to think it has and never truly recovers, do you think biglaw firms will continue to deal with the additional expense of recruiting at UM, or will they go to the next best option in their local market?


You do know University of Michigan isn't in "a devastated, crime ridden urban wasteland with no hope of every recovering in a meaningful way?" Have you ever even been to Ann Arbor?


That would require being in Michigan and who, honestly, chooses that for their life? 1) Residents of Michigan, the poor bastards not knowing any better, and 2) UM students who couldn't get that kind of grift from the other t14.


Image

Shut up. Just stop talking for a minute. Do you have any idea what you are talking about?

Detroit blows, Flint blows, and I'm sure there are other places in Michigan that blow. But to paint the entire state with a broad brushstroke as a "devastated, crime-ridden urban wasteland" is just fucking stupid, especially when you're referring to Ann Arbor. It is a nice college city, and you have clearly never been there. And you think UM students "couldn't get that kind of gift (or grift depending on your typing abilities)? Have you ever seen UM's rankings in fields besides law? The school is a top notch school all the way around.

CordeliusX
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby CordeliusX » Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:12 am

I don't get the Stanford hate on here... will it "eclipse" HY - probably not. But there is already a "T3" for a reason. You are all acting like it's #30. I mean the school is already on par with H, maybe a bit less so than Y. If anything, I would foresee S overtaking Y as top smaller school in the future... Stanford as a whole is still developing whereas Yale seems not to be so - no?

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romothesavior
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby romothesavior » Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:15 am

CordeliusX wrote:I don't get the Stanford hate on here... will it "eclipse" HY - probably not. But there is already a "T3" for a reason. You are all acting like it's #30. I mean the school is already on par with H, maybe a bit less so than Y. If anything, I would foresee S overtaking Y as top smaller school in the future... Stanford as a whole is still developing whereas Yale seems not to be so - no?


Yeah you're right. Yale has really been on a downward trajectory from #1 to #1.

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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby Fark-o-vision » Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:23 am

romothesavior wrote:
Fark-o-vision wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
Fark-o-vision wrote:
The question isn't if UM is tied too heavily to the state. Everyone knows it places outside, that it finances independently, and that it has a national reputation. What is going to be a challenge for it is 1) keeping instructors who can't effectively or efficiently work in their industry or DO ANYTHING remotely interesting. Would you take 200K to work in Irvine, or 220K to work in a devastated, crime ridden urban wasteland with no hope of ever recovering in a meaningful way? If Biglaw melts down in the way everyone seems to think it has and never truly recovers, do you think biglaw firms will continue to deal with the additional expense of recruiting at UM, or will they go to the next best option in their local market?


You do know University of Michigan isn't in "a devastated, crime ridden urban wasteland with no hope of every recovering in a meaningful way?" Have you ever even been to Ann Arbor?


That would require being in Michigan and who, honestly, chooses that for their life? 1) Residents of Michigan, the poor bastards not knowing any better, and 2) UM students who couldn't get that kind of grift from the other t14.


Image

Shut up. Just stop talking for a minute. Do you have any idea what you are talking about?

Detroit blows, Flint blows, and I'm sure there are other places in Michigan that blow. But to paint the entire state with a broad brushstroke as a "devastated, crime-ridden urban wasteland" is just fucking stupid, especially when you're referring to Ann Arbor. It is a nice college city, and you have clearly never been there. And you think UM students "couldn't get that kind of gift (or grift depending on your typing abilities)? Have you ever seen UM's rankings in fields besides law? The school is a top notch school all the way around.


Lol at your interpretation of "grift" as gift. An easy error to understand, but it's best not to call people out for errors when you're simply ignorant to a term.

You're right. I've never been there. Because the only place I'd less like to be than Michigan is Zombie Island, where Zombies rule and eat your brains and only drink Zombies (which are too sweet for me). Why are you arguing so passionately? I admitted originally that it was unlikely. Still, if you're dedicated to the defense of America's VD then I applaud you. Someone should be advocating for them.

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romothesavior
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby romothesavior » Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:27 am

Fark-o-vision wrote:Lol at your interpretation of "grift" as gift. An easy error to understand, but it's best not to call people out for errors when you're simply ignorant to a term.

You're right. I've never been there. Because the only place I'd less like to be than Michigan is Zombie Island, where Zombies rule and eat your brains and only drink Zombies (which are too sweet for me). Why are you arguing so passionately? I admitted originally that it was unlikely. Still, if you're dedicated to the defense of America's VD then I applaud you. Someone should be advocating for them.


You're right, I messed up on that word. I didn't recognize it and for some reason the Mozilla spell check didn't catch it, strange.

I don't care if you like the state of Michigan or not. If you don't like it, fine... bitch about it all you want. That's not what I'm arguing against. I'm arguing that your premise that Michigan's location in an crime-ridden wasteland is just absurdly stupid, and it undermines your argument about Michigan losing its status as a top school.

Fark-o-vision
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby Fark-o-vision » Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:33 am

romothesavior wrote:
Fark-o-vision wrote:Lol at your interpretation of "grift" as gift. An easy error to understand, but it's best not to call people out for errors when you're simply ignorant to a term.

You're right. I've never been there. Because the only place I'd less like to be than Michigan is Zombie Island, where Zombies rule and eat your brains and only drink Zombies (which are too sweet for me). Why are you arguing so passionately? I admitted originally that it was unlikely. Still, if you're dedicated to the defense of America's VD then I applaud you. Someone should be advocating for them.


You're right, I messed up on that word. I didn't recognize it and for some reason the Mozilla spell check didn't catch it, strange.

I don't care if you like the state of Michigan or not. If you don't like it, fine... bitch about it all you want. That's not what I'm arguing against. I'm arguing that your premise that Michigan's location in an crime-ridden wasteland is just absurdly stupid, and it undermines your argument about Michigan losing its status as a top school.


Fair. I'm not anti-Michigan. I'm just suggesting that if general decline continues I'm not sure how long the isolated world of Ann Arbor can hold up.

I'll admit to never having been there, but I can't imagine it's much more special than most college towns. Probably a couple nice bars, a decent indie music scene? I'm sure I would like Ann Arbor. How long can Ann Arbor keep the rest of Michigan out, is my question.

Of course, Michigan could recover. The state could work it's problems out. Or, Ann Arbor could remain insulated from the effects of the state forever. that's why I said it's collapse was more likely than Stanford's/Berkeley's/UCLA's/USC's, but still unlikely.

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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby AngryAvocado » Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:37 am

You guys realize that the very notion of the top 14 exists because the schools at the top have remained remarkably consistent over the years, right?

Just making sure.

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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby Fark-o-vision » Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:43 am

AngryAvocado wrote:You guys realize that the very notion of the top 14 exists because the schools at the top have remained remarkably consistent over the years, right?

Just making sure.

Thank you for reminding us. Your wisdom is good.

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AngryAvocado
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby AngryAvocado » Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:55 am

Fark-o-vision wrote:
AngryAvocado wrote:You guys realize that the very notion of the top 14 exists because the schools at the top have remained remarkably consistent over the years, right?

Just making sure.

Thank you for reminding us. Your wisdom is good.


No problem. Now, if you'll pardon my interruption, please continue debating whether Michigan is doomed to TTT oblivion thanks to a struggling "home market" (where it sends a whopping <10% of it's students).

olanderp
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby olanderp » Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:58 am

The LA and SF markets are way too small to uphold so many law schools. The problem with the UC law schools is that a lot fewer NYC/DC/Chicago offices recruit from there, which are the major markets, and the top three financial/legal sectors in the U.S. It's a lot harder rising in the corporate world when you have a limited reach to these three markets.

I turned down UCLA/USC with $$ to go elsewhere because of their limited market reach, and I don't regret it one bit. I can't see those schools rising any time soon, especially given how the California markets are right now.

Stanford isn't in the same boat as the UCs, because it's essentially like HY, with wide international reach. A lot of offices from NYC/DC/Chicago that do not recruit at Berkeley/UCLA/USC, recruit at Stanford.

As for Vanderbilt, I think it's doing better than UCLA/Texas right now because its grads are forced to hustle and spread out into different markets. It still needs more respect in NYC though, but I can see it rise above its peers.

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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby Fark-o-vision » Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:05 am

AngryAvocado wrote:
Fark-o-vision wrote:
AngryAvocado wrote:You guys realize that the very notion of the top 14 exists because the schools at the top have remained remarkably consistent over the years, right?

Just making sure.

Thank you for reminding us. Your wisdom is good.


No problem. Now, if you'll pardon my interruption, please continue debating whether Michigan is doomed to TTT oblivion thanks to a struggling "home market" (where it sends a whopping <10% of it's students).
]\

Thank you. Your input was meaningful and welcome.

olanderp wrote:The LA and SF markets are way too small to uphold so many law schools. The problem with the UC law schools is that a lot fewer NYC/DC/Chicago offices recruit from there, which are the major markets, and the top three financial/legal sectors in the U.S. It's a lot harder rising in the corporate world when you have a limited reach to these three markets.

I turned down UCLA/USC with $$ to go elsewhere because of their limited market reach, and I don't regret it one bit. I can't see those schools rising any time soon, especially given how the California markets are right now.

Stanford isn't in the same boat as the UCs, because it's essentially like HY, with wide international reach. A lot of offices from NYC/DC/Chicago that do not recruit at Berkeley/UCLA/USC, recruit at Stanford.


Lol at LA being a small market when it has fewer meaningful law schools competing than Chicago. La: Some Stanford, Berkeley, UCLA, USC, Loyola, Pepperdine, Southwestern.

Chicago: Some Stanford, Harvard, Yale, Chicago, Northwestern, DePaul, Loyola, UIUC, Bloomington, et. al. You can keep Chicago. Thanks for your time.

olanderp
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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby olanderp » Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:07 am

Fark-o-vision wrote:
AngryAvocado wrote:
Fark-o-vision wrote:
AngryAvocado wrote:You guys realize that the very notion of the top 14 exists because the schools at the top have remained remarkably consistent over the years, right?

Just making sure.

Thank you for reminding us. Your wisdom is good.


No problem. Now, if you'll pardon my interruption, please continue debating whether Michigan is doomed to TTT oblivion thanks to a struggling "home market" (where it sends a whopping <10% of it's students).
]\

Thank you. Your input was meaningful and welcome.

olanderp wrote:The LA and SF markets are way too small to uphold so many law schools. The problem with the UC law schools is that a lot fewer NYC/DC/Chicago offices recruit from there, which are the major markets, and the top three financial/legal sectors in the U.S. It's a lot harder rising in the corporate world when you have a limited reach to these three markets.

I turned down UCLA/USC with $$ to go elsewhere because of their limited market reach, and I don't regret it one bit. I can't see those schools rising any time soon, especially given how the California markets are right now.

Stanford isn't in the same boat as the UCs, because it's essentially like HY, with wide international reach. A lot of offices from NYC/DC/Chicago that do not recruit at Berkeley/UCLA/USC, recruit at Stanford.


Lol at LA being a small market when it has fewer meaningful law schools competing than Chicago. La: Some Stanford, Berkeley, UCLA, USC, Loyola, Pepperdine, Southwestern.

Chicago: Some Stanford, Harvard, Yale, Chicago, Northwestern, DePaul, Loyola, UIUC, Bloomington, et. al. You can keep Chicago. Thanks for your time.


Chicago is a bigger market, and it's seen as a corporate city. I don't really count "bloomington," etc. as competition...

Are you going to UCLA/USC? No offense, but the "big three" markets' offices don't want to recruit from there.

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Re: The Future elitist law schools?

Postby badwithpseudonyms » Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:08 am

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