UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

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Unitas
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby Unitas » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:58 pm

UGmatters wrote:
acadec wrote:Oh, alright then. Just make sure log back in to the right alt account next time.


Advice taken. :)


TLS frowns on alts... I believe at least. Plus why make an alt for this???

First time I have ever said this: Flame.

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Grizz
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby Grizz » Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:01 pm

I have multiple family members at every T12. They say the exact opposite of everything you said.

See how easy that was?

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GIBilled
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby GIBilled » Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:01 pm

NU_Jet55 wrote:
UGmatters wrote:I have for a long time been amazed at how the vast majority of people on this site have convinced themselves that your UG doesn't matter on your application. All of these people are delusional. Blah, blah, blah.


This post says nothing that TLS CW doesn't already say.

If you get a Criminal Justice degree fromSouthwestern Technical College of Idaho (no idea if that's a real school), but have auto-admit numbers, good LOR's, a well written Personal Statement, and an impressive, interesting resume, you're just about a lock everywhere outside of HYS (and if you still have a shot there too).

If you have sub-25% numbers and the rest of your app is sub-par but you went to Harvard, you're going to have a hard time getting in.

There is nothing new here.


Image

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Dr. Strangelove
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby Dr. Strangelove » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:28 pm

I'll let you guys know if it matters next year or not. :wink:
The median GPA for math classes at my university hovers around a B/B-/C+.. even when you get past the intro classes.
It gets tough when some of your classmates qualified for USAMO (and when you drink a lot of booze but just don't tell the law schools that)..

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romothesavior
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby romothesavior » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:36 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Also, many of us on TLS could have gone to much better undergrads but did the smart thing and took a huge scholarship somewhere else. I had good grades from a highly respected high school in my state and a really good ACT, and I would have had an okay shot at a lot of the "top" undergrad schools. But I took a full ride at a relatively unknown school, got an awesome education (I wouldn't trade it for anything), and did well in my classes.

A lot of those touting their great non-HYSP undergrads aren't that special. In many cases, they're just less debt averse.


I don't even care if a person could have gotten into a great school. Who cares if someone did shitty Sophomore year of high school (knocking them out of top colleges), if they rocked college and have a great LSAT?

What college you went to is a function of how good at high school you were from 14-17 (and lets face it, High School is retardedly easy), a standardized test, and how much money your parents had.

Now if someone wants to say that an A at a top school is harder to earn, then you gotta put the GPA of a Georgia Tech Engineer over a the Harvard Poli Sci major, because GT engineering would be harder to get an A in. But nobody wants to do that. They like to pretends Ivy >> ALL. That is overly simplistic.

If I were an adcom I'd really only consider difficulty of undergrad for reverse splitters. Because a 4.0/160 from CalTech, succeeded when tests say she shouldn't.


As always, DF is motherfucking credited.

I was an immature little shit when I was 14 and 15. I blew off high school, took nothing seriously, and my HS GPA was like a 3.6 or something. I didn't even think one second about the ACT before I took it and still scored in the upper 90-something percentiles (like 97 or 98). I can promise you if I was half as mature and half as driven then as I am now, I could have easily gotten into the top midwestern undergrads like Chicago, WUSTL, Northwestern, etc.

I am impressed by the HYSP kids, but all of you Brown, Cornell, Tufts, Amherst, Northwestern, etc. kids who think you are hot shit, come down from your perch. Congrats on either:

1) Having rich parents who were willing to help you pay 40k a year to go to a prestigious school
2) Being more driven than me at 14 years old :roll:
3) Being a retard for taking out massive undergrad loans when it really won't matter at all
4) The small minority who actually have a right to brag who got big schollies to go to great schools

/rant

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ConMan345
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby ConMan345 » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:41 pm

Can we all agree, though, that the indirect benefit of a top school = access to really awesome resume-building opportunities. My numbers are fine but it's my resume that put me over the top. My resume is only what it is because of the school I went to for undergrad.

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MrKappus
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby MrKappus » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:44 pm

It's fun to impress people at dinner parties w/ my TTT ivy bachelors. I'll admit that, for LS admissions, it means nothing. Oh well.

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romothesavior
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby romothesavior » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:44 pm

ConMan345 wrote:Can we all agree, though, that the indirect benefit of a top school = access to really awesome resume-building opportunities. My numbers are fine but it's my resume that put me over the top. My resume is only what it is because of the school I went to for undergrad.


I'll agree to that.

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NU_Jet55
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby NU_Jet55 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:17 am

ConMan345 wrote:Can we all agree, though, that the indirect benefit of a top school = access to really awesome resume-building opportunities. My numbers are fine but it's my resume that put me over the top. My resume is only what it is because of the school I went to for undergrad.


While this may be true, it is also true that if you hustle you can get resume building opportunities anywhere. I went to an undergrad you've never heard of, and my resume is awesome(eg Every adcomm I've talked to this cycle has commented on it).

Honestly, if I could go back I might go to a better school just to be around more impressive, driven students eager to expand their worldview. But I've actually ended up with better prospects out of my TTT ug than I would have had at the t10 undergrad that admitted me. I found friends that shared common interests, built up an impressive resume, and got paid to go to school. No regrets.

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PDaddy
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby PDaddy » Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:40 am

UGmatters wrote:I have for a long time been amazed at how the vast majority of people on this site have convinced themselves that your UG doesn't matter on your application. All of these people are delusional.

But saying because school A is ranked T25 it will considered better than school B, which is ranked 100-150, is not accurate.

My sister has worked for 6 years in admissions for a T14 law school that I'm not allowed to apply to, and she helped me construct this list to debunk the myths. Here is what DOES matter:

1) Difficulty of school -

Its funny that every single person who applies to law school receives numbers from LSAC that show how their numbers lineup to the average from their UG, but most fail to realize that adcomms care about this. Good luck at law school, guys.

If the average GPA at your school is a 3.3, and you get a 3.4, good for you. If the average GPA at your school is a 3.6, and you got a 3.5, not so much. This requires little more than common sense to understand.

2) Inflation

Adcomms are MORE than aware which schools inflate their grades. So, all of you people who say 'Unless you're coming from an Ivy you're out of luck', that is complete bollocks. For example, it is pretty much accepted as a fact that Columbia University's inflation is out of control. It is one of the most popular schools for Post-Bacs and 3-2 engineering transfer students maybe a little cause its got a good rep, maybe a little cause its in NY, and certainly a LOT because you're almost GUARANTEED to get a 3.6 or higher as long as you're admitted.

3) % of Students from your undergrad that complete PHDs, Masters.

TLSers (and anyone younger than 27, for that matter) hate this statistic. But Adcomms love it. Hrmm, I wonder why...
There is a reason this statistic exists, is tracked, and is so often cited: graduate schools care. If your UG has a record of an extremely low % of students COMPLETING (note completing vs. enrolling in) advanced degrees, your 3.5 is not going to look as good as someone who is coming with a 3.5 from a school which is known for this statistic.

And finally, the most overlooked one...

4) The relationship between your UG and the Law School

TLSers love to knock this down too, but it is true. Admissions officers know which students from which schools have the best track records at their institutions, and they care. If your UG school consistently sends stellar students who perform well in the school (and who give/bring lots of $$$ back), they're going to like you more than someone from a school that consistently sends students who underperform, regardless of numbers.


Now, this all isn't to say that some of the things people 'assume' aren't correct.

Where people are right:

1) coming from your Law school's UG

this rarely matters, and in fact can be a problem. Schools like to recruit from a variety of different schools and maintain geographic diversity. This is hard to do if you're favoring people in the dorm across the street.

2) Relativity between school type and major

Adcomms can't help concerning themselves with all of the things I mentioned above, but that doesn't mean they don't try and be fair sometimes. Although this may seem contrary to what has been stated above, in very specific cases adcomms will treat you on an equal plane despite the numbers advising otherwise. One of these specific cases would be if you are applying from a lower ranked specialty school with the same major and numbers as someone from a higher ranked one. What does this mean? 3 electrical engineering majors, one from MIT, one from Georgia Tech and one from Carnegie Mellon, all with 3.4s, willl likely all be considered on an equal plane. This is because there are only so many schools that offer such a specialty on such a high level, and while these schools may have reputations and numbers that rank the schools overall much differently, these specialties line up pretty well.


So, don't believe the hype. Anyone who says that anything besides HYP doesn't matter (or that HYP automatically matter) is a clown and has spent way too long on this site and way too much time trusting everyone else on it.



+1000! I stated these same things, in a less detailed manner (about 5 minutes ago), in another thread.

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20160810
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby 20160810 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:36 am

UG doesn't matter for admissions for a very simple reason: US news cares about median GPA, not whether that median GPA came from Stanford (even though Stanford is the second-best university in California, which is no mean feat).

There is a POSSIBILITY that it matters a bit more than people realize later on when you're interviewing with firms. Firms put your whole resume on their website, and Harvard BA/Harvard JD looks a bit saucier than CSU Chico BA/Harvard JD. But even then it doesn't matter all that much, because they'll take someone with good grades over someone who went to an Ivy undergrad 10 times out of 10.

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MusicNutMeggie
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby MusicNutMeggie » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:44 am

SoftBoiledLife wrote:UG doesn't matter for admissions for a very simple reason: US news cares about median GPA, not whether that median GPA came from Stanford (even though Stanford is the second-best university in California, which is no mean feat).

There is a POSSIBILITY that it matters a bit more than people realize later on when you're interviewing with firms. Firms put your whole resume on their website, and Harvard BA/Harvard JD looks a bit saucier than CSU Chico BA/Harvard JD. But even then it doesn't matter all that much, because they'll take someone with good grades over someone who went to an Ivy undergrad 10 times out of 10.


Blatant Berkeley trolling.

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pugalicious
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby pugalicious » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:56 am

MusicNutMeggie wrote:
SoftBoiledLife wrote:UG doesn't matter for admissions for a very simple reason: US news cares about median GPA, not whether that median GPA came from Stanford (even though Stanford is the second-best university in California, which is no mean feat).

There is a POSSIBILITY that it matters a bit more than people realize later on when you're interviewing with firms. Firms put your whole resume on their website, and Harvard BA/Harvard JD looks a bit saucier than CSU Chico BA/Harvard JD. But even then it doesn't matter all that much, because they'll take someone with good grades over someone who went to an Ivy undergrad 10 times out of 10.


Blatant [strike]Berkeley trolling[/strike] delusional ramblings.


FTFY

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Dany
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby Dany » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:04 am

ConMan345 wrote:Can we all agree, though, that the indirect benefit of a top school = access to really awesome resume-building opportunities. My numbers are fine but it's my resume that put me over the top. My resume is only what it is because of the school I went to for undergrad.

I don't think that's true of only top schools. I go to a large state school, with a much less motivated student body than, say, the student body at Harvard. This means there are far fewer qualified people competing for leadership positions, awards, etc., and as a result I've been able to stand out more on campus, with lots of leadership and research positions, and some great administrative connections. I'd argue it's harder to get more resume-building opportunities at a school like Harvard because you have a student body full of competitive go-getters. This is all anecdotal, of course, but I have friends at great UG schools and I've had access to a lot more "resume-building opportunities" than they have.

I guess I think that, in the end, UG is what you make of it. A motivated student will seek out challenges, a good education, leadership roles, or resume-boosters no matter where they go to UG. Yes, Harvard looks better on a resume than X/Y/Z State University, and there may be better connections to be made at a prestigious school, but I definitely think the impact of a specific UG on a candidate's law school application cycle is negligible, at best.

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:11 am

pugalicious wrote:
MusicNutMeggie wrote:
SoftBoiledLife wrote:UG doesn't matter for admissions for a very simple reason: US news cares about median GPA, not whether that median GPA came from Stanford (even though Stanford is the second-best university in California, which is no mean feat).

There is a POSSIBILITY that it matters a bit more than people realize later on when you're interviewing with firms. Firms put your whole resume on their website, and Harvard BA/Harvard JD looks a bit saucier than CSU Chico BA/Harvard JD. But even then it doesn't matter all that much, because they'll take someone with good grades over someone who went to an Ivy undergrad 10 times out of 10.


Blatant [strike]Berkeley trolling[/strike] [strike]delusional ramblings[/strike] but accurate Caltech recognition.


FTFY


FTFbothofY

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ApexChaser
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby ApexChaser » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:40 am

delBarco wrote:
pugalicious wrote:
MusicNutMeggie wrote:
SoftBoiledLife wrote:UG doesn't matter for admissions for a very simple reason: US news cares about median GPA, not whether that median GPA came from Stanford (even though Stanford is the second-best university in California, which is no mean feat).

There is a POSSIBILITY that it matters a bit more than people realize later on when you're interviewing with firms. Firms put your whole resume on their website, and Harvard BA/Harvard JD looks a bit saucier than CSU Chico BA/Harvard JD. But even then it doesn't matter all that much, because they'll take someone with good grades over someone who went to an Ivy undergrad 10 times out of 10.


Blatant [strike]Berkeley trolling[/strike] [strike]delusional ramblings[/strike] but accurate Caltech recognition.


FTFY


FTFbothofY


TITCR

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PhantaManta
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby PhantaManta » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:45 am

OP is clearly wrong, for at least everything below T20 Law Schools (and I suspect OP is wrong there as well).

YOU HEARD ME.

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MusicNutMeggie
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby MusicNutMeggie » Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:55 am

delBarco wrote:
pugalicious wrote:
MusicNutMeggie wrote:
SoftBoiledLife wrote:UG doesn't matter for admissions for a very simple reason: US news cares about median GPA, not whether that median GPA came from Stanford (even though Stanford is the second-best university in California, which is no mean feat).

There is a POSSIBILITY that it matters a bit more than people realize later on when you're interviewing with firms. Firms put your whole resume on their website, and Harvard BA/Harvard JD looks a bit saucier than CSU Chico BA/Harvard JD. But even then it doesn't matter all that much, because they'll take someone with good grades over someone who went to an Ivy undergrad 10 times out of 10.


Blatant [strike]Berkeley trolling[/strike] [strike]delusional ramblings[/strike] but accurate Caltech recognition.


FTFY


FTFbothofY


Fair enough.

miamiman
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby miamiman » Fri Jun 04, 2010 7:09 am

I agree with Conman. My UG (a top 4) no doubt aided my application both directly (prestige) and indirectly.

I don't know if this benefit confers across ALL Ivy undergrads, and simply less so across some than others, but I do know that in the cases of my peers who applied to LS, we did uniformly better than our numbers might have predicted.

Top tier UGs are a solid soft that when coupled with other impressive softs -- diverse work experiences, solid writing, outstanding recommendations, etc. etc. -- create a compelling case for admission.

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Dr. Strangelove
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby Dr. Strangelove » Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:11 am

romothesavior wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Also, many of us on TLS could have gone to much better undergrads but did the smart thing and took a huge scholarship somewhere else. I had good grades from a highly respected high school in my state and a really good ACT, and I would have had an okay shot at a lot of the "top" undergrad schools. But I took a full ride at a relatively unknown school, got an awesome education (I wouldn't trade it for anything), and did well in my classes.

A lot of those touting their great non-HYSP undergrads aren't that special. In many cases, they're just less debt averse.


I don't even care if a person could have gotten into a great school. Who cares if someone did shitty Sophomore year of high school (knocking them out of top colleges), if they rocked college and have a great LSAT?

What college you went to is a function of how good at high school you were from 14-17 (and lets face it, High School is retardedly easy), a standardized test, and how much money your parents had.

Now if someone wants to say that an A at a top school is harder to earn, then you gotta put the GPA of a Georgia Tech Engineer over a the Harvard Poli Sci major, because GT engineering would be harder to get an A in. But nobody wants to do that. They like to pretends Ivy >> ALL. That is overly simplistic.

If I were an adcom I'd really only consider difficulty of undergrad for reverse splitters. Because a 4.0/160 from CalTech, succeeded when tests say she shouldn't.


As always, DF is motherfucking credited.

I was an immature little shit when I was 14 and 15. I blew off high school, took nothing seriously, and my HS GPA was like a 3.6 or something. I didn't even think one second about the ACT before I took it and still scored in the upper 90-something percentiles (like 97 or 98). I can promise you if I was half as mature and half as driven then as I am now, I could have easily gotten into the top midwestern undergrads like Chicago, WUSTL, Northwestern, etc.

I am impressed by the HYSP kids, but all of you Brown, Cornell, Tufts, Amherst, Northwestern, etc. kids who think you are hot shit, come down from your perch. Congrats on either:

1) Having rich parents who were willing to help you pay 40k a year to go to a prestigious school
2) Being more driven than me at 14 years old :roll:
3) Being a retard for taking out massive undergrad loans when it really won't matter at all
4) The small minority who actually have a right to brag who got big schollies to go to great schools

/rant


Heh heh.. good thing I don't think I'm hot shit. *phew*
But yea high school is a piece of cake, some high schools are easier than others- but mine was one of those.
3.9 GPA and I would party all the time and occasionally cut class- didn't quite work so well at college but I still ended up with a higher high-school rank than many of my peers who would study all the time...
To be fair though, a lot of us received some financial aid to enroll in these top schools- they want the kids from urban, rural, or mediocre suburban areas (like me).
However, a part of me wishes I did what a lot of my friends in my high school did and went to a SUNY school.
Even though I made a lot of friends in college, I think that a good portion of my HS friends will be life-long buddies while most of my college friends won't be.

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NayBoer
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby NayBoer » Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:08 pm

Your class rank doesn't matter, at least for super splitters. I was bottom eighth of my class and got in everywhere I should have.

Also, I know for a fact people have gone from regionally accredited schools (basically community college) to T14.

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BioEBear2010
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby BioEBear2010 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:22 pm

I similarly agree with Conman. Although my UG isn't quite as prestigious as his, it still offered a TON of extracurricular activities and opportunities to boost my resume. There is also value in being taught by top-notch professors (who can write great LORs) and having brilliant peers (who can both inspire one to work hard and offer sound advice).

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SwollenMonkey
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby SwollenMonkey » Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:27 pm

This is true in every form. Don't forget to include that majors are also important.

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big_blue79
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby big_blue79 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:36 pm

NayBoer wrote:Your class rank doesn't matter, at least for super splitters. I was bottom eighth of my class and got in everywhere I should have.

Also, I know for a fact people have gone from regionally accredited schools (basically community college) to T14.


All real schools are regional accredited. Nationally accredited schools (University of Phoenix type) are ttteribad.

OG Loc
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Re: UG MATTERS! Don't believe the hype

Postby OG Loc » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:52 pm

UGmatters wrote:
1) Difficulty of school -

Its funny that every single person who applies to law school receives numbers from LSAC that show how their numbers lineup to the average from their UG, but most fail to realize that adcomms care about this. Good luck at law school, guys.

If the average GPA at your school is a 3.3, and you get a 3.4, good for you. If the average GPA at your school is a 3.6, and you got a 3.5, not so much. This requires little more than common sense to understand.



I'm assuming the GPA distributions are for the entire graduating class at a given university, no? If so, then they would be basically meaningless for medium to large universities. Throwing the engineering, physics, etc. majors into the same pool as the communications, political science, etc. majors, averaging them, and then comparing them individually to that average is not going to tell anything. There will be huge differences in the difficulty and grading practices of the different colleges and majors at any sizable university.

Edit: And I also believe that the 3.5 student in your scenario will have the inside track on the 3.4 student, because like people have written, the numbers to be factored into medians generally trump everything else.
Last edited by OG Loc on Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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