## How did taking the LSAT three times impact your cycle.......

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )

## ....at schools that say they take the highest score?

No Impact
43
78%
Negative Impact
12
22%

BigA

Posts: 448
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:22 am

### Re: How did taking the LSAT three times impact your cycle.......

BigA wrote:
If you think you can improve your score by 3+ points, I say go for it.

As long as the improvement is apparent and substantial, you'll be fine

But if the improvement isn't substantial then it can really work against you??

Kids, this is called a contrapositive LOL

Or a weird incorrect negation that misses half of the sufficient condition, lol...

<3

hold on a second. "As long as" is nothing I've seen on the LSAT but would function as the necessary condition, similar to "only if". Then I reversed and negated the terms. What the hell's wrong with that? So I left off half, but my point was really to ask a question. I only realized after the fact that I basically contraposed his statement

d34d9823

Posts: 1879
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:52 pm

### Re: How did taking the LSAT three times impact your cycle.......

BigA wrote:
BigA wrote:
If you think you can improve your score by 3+ points, I say go for it.

As long as the improvement is apparent and substantial, you'll be fine

But if the improvement isn't substantial then it can really work against you??

Kids, this is called a contrapositive LOL

Or a weird incorrect negation that misses half of the sufficient condition, lol...

<3

hold on a second. "As long as" is nothing I've seen on the LSAT but would function as the necessary condition, similar to "only if". Then I reversed and negated the terms. What the hell's wrong with that? So I left off half, but my point was really to ask a question. I only realized after the fact that I basically contraposed his statement

You wrote the converse with half the statement missing.

Converse of A=>B = Not A => Not B

In this case, converse = if the improvement is not apparent or (negations flip and/or) not substantial, then you will not be fine.

Contrapositive of A=>B = Not B => Not A

In this case, contrapositive = if you are not fine, then the improvement was either not apparent or not substantial.

Contrapositive is always true, converse is not necessarily true.

BigA

Posts: 448
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:22 am

### Re: How did taking the LSAT three times impact your cycle.......

d34dluk3 wrote:
BigA wrote:
Or a weird incorrect negation that misses half of the sufficient condition, lol...

<3

hold on a second. "As long as" is nothing I've seen on the LSAT but would function as the necessary condition, similar to "only if". Then I reversed and negated the terms. What the hell's wrong with that? So I left off half, but my point was really to ask a question. I only realized after the fact that I basically contraposed his statement

You wrote the converse with half the statement missing.

Converse of A=>B = Not A => Not B

In this case, converse = if the improvement is not apparent or (negations flip and/or) not substantial, then you will not be fine.

Contrapositive of A=>B = Not B => Not A

In this case, contrapositive = if you are not fine, then the improvement was either not apparent or not substantial.

Contrapositive is always true, converse is not necessarily true.

First of all, so what if I left out "apparent"? If it's in your LSAC file than it's certainly going to be apparent to admissions. So I felt no need to put this back into the question I had.

Beyond that, I don't see how I'm wrong. In the original statement...

Sufficent condition = you'll be fine
Necessary condition = improvement is apparent and substantial

I reversed and negated both terms.

MoS

Posts: 404
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:59 pm

### Re: How did taking the LSAT three times impact your cycle.......

Shouldn't there be an option for a positive impact? 155 157 164?

Also, if you are scoring in a consistent range the might just average it when looking at your potential. If there is a significant gap in score then they might look at the highest score as a more telling prediction.

cendien

Posts: 150
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:24 am

### Re: How did taking the LSAT three times impact your cycle.......

168 -> Cancel -> 167

The only negative effect that I think this had was keeping me from applying early. I waited until after my third LSAT score was back in January to send in applications, whereas I should have just sent them in in September. Though the scores themselves didn't hurt me beyond the 168, I think I may have done better application-wise had I applied earlier.

BigA

Posts: 448
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:22 am

### Re: How did taking the LSAT three times impact your cycle.......

MoS wrote:Shouldn't there be an option for a positive impact? 155 157 164?

this poll is about whether your lower scores have an impact on your highest score. So no, there shouldn't.

d34d9823

Posts: 1879
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:52 pm

### Re: How did taking the LSAT three times impact your cycle.......

BigA wrote:First of all, so what if I left out "apparent"? If it's in your LSAC file than it's certainly going to be apparent to admissions. So I felt no need to put this back into the question I had.

Beyond that, I don't see how I'm wrong. In the original statement...

Sufficent condition = you'll be fine
Necessary condition = improvement is apparent and substantial

I reversed and negated both terms.

I don't think you understand what you're talking about. It sounds like you swallowed an CliffsNotes to logic. That said, if I comprehend your formula for making a contrapositive correctly, you negated, but did not reverse.

BigA

Posts: 448
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:22 am

### Re: How did taking the LSAT three times impact your cycle.......

d34dluk3 wrote:I don't think you understand what you're talking about. It sounds like you swallowed an CliffsNotes to logic.

Not even. Just the LR Bible

if I comprehend your formula for making a contrapositive correctly, you negated, but did not reverse

wait. This is MY formula for making a contrapositive?? If that's not how you make a contrapositive, then I completely digress. Those are the terms in the LR Bible. I don't see how this is so complicated. Do you not agree that "As long as" creates a necessary condition?

20121109

Posts: 1613
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:19 pm

### Re: How did taking the LSAT three times impact your cycle.......

BigA wrote:
d34dluk3 wrote:I don't think you understand what you're talking about. It sounds like you swallowed an CliffsNotes to logic.

Not even. Just the LR Bible

if I comprehend your formula for making a contrapositive correctly, you negated, but did not reverse

wait. This is MY formula for making a contrapositive?? If that's not how you make a contrapositive, then I completely digress. Those are the terms in the LR Bible. I don't see how this is so complicated. Do you not agree that "As long as" creates a necessary condition?

Sorry, honey. "As long as" introduces a sufficient condition. It was part of my Testmasters class...

My original statement could have been, "If your improvement is apparent and substantial, then you'll be fine." It still would mean the same thing.

<3

honestabe84

Posts: 491
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 1:47 pm

### Re: How did taking the LSAT three times impact your cycle.......

This poll has kind of got me concerned (despite the high percentage that said "no impact").

I have a 162 and a 164 currently in the books. I am now preparing for June and have been scoring around 169 on my PTs. While I think there is a very good chance that I will score at least 165, there is still a good chance that I could score less - I scored 3-4 points below my average on my first two attempts.

I'm currently 50/50 at two schools that I would be more than happy attending, and I would absolutely hate to score below my two former scores and ruin myself. Do I throw my chips on the table or do I cash out?

MoS

Posts: 404
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:59 pm

### Re: How did taking the LSAT three times impact your cycle.......

OP:
honestabe84 wrote:at schools that say they take the highest score?

I created this poll after a brief discussion in another thread over whether or not schools penalize applicants that take the LSAT three times. I always thought schools that take the highest score do not care at all.

For instance, which is better?

Applicant A: 165, 166, 167
OR
Applicant B: 165, 166

BigA wrote:
MoS wrote:Shouldn't there be an option for a positive impact? 155 157 164?

this poll is about whether your lower scores have an impact on your highest score. So no, there shouldn't.
BigA wrote:
MoS wrote:Shouldn't there be an option for a positive impact? 155 157 164?

this poll is about whether your lower scores have an impact on your highest score. So no, there shouldn't.

So how do you figure that? I got that it was about taking the LSAT 3 times.

clintonius

Posts: 1239
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:50 am

### Re: How did taking the LSAT three times impact your cycle.......

It's assumed. Retaking to get your highest score will never be more beneficial than getting that score the first time.

honestabe84

Posts: 491
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 1:47 pm

### Re: How did taking the LSAT three times impact your cycle.......

clintonius wrote:It's assumed. Retaking to get your highest score will never be more beneficial than getting that score the first time.

Yes, it obviously won't be MORE beneficial, but the question is whether or not it will hurt you.

jimicornerstone

Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:29 pm

### Re: How did taking the LSAT three times impact your cycle.......

I took it FOUR times, albeit with a 4 yr. gap in between pairs. Sept. '05 - cancel, June '06 -156, Sept. '09 - 159, December '09- 165. Did not seem to hurt me at all and in fact I was accepted at a few reaches, although I attribute that mostly to an awesome PS.

clintonius

Posts: 1239
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:50 am

### Re: How did taking the LSAT three times impact your cycle.......

honestabe84 wrote:
clintonius wrote:It's assumed. Retaking to get your highest score will never be more beneficial than getting that score the first time.
Yes, it obviously won't be MORE beneficial, but the question is whether or not it will hurt you.

Right. You understand that. My comment was aimed at the string of posts that were kicked off by this:
MoS wrote:Shouldn't there be an option for a positive impact?

BigA

Posts: 448
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:22 am

### Re: How did taking the LSAT three times impact your cycle.......

BigA wrote:
d34dluk3 wrote:I don't think you understand what you're talking about. It sounds like you swallowed an CliffsNotes to logic.

Not even. Just the LR Bible

if I comprehend your formula for making a contrapositive correctly, you negated, but did not reverse

wait. This is MY formula for making a contrapositive?? If that's not how you make a contrapositive, then I completely digress. Those are the terms in the LR Bible. I don't see how this is so complicated. Do you not agree that "As long as" creates a necessary condition?

Sorry, honey. "As long as" introduces a sufficient condition. It was part of my Testmasters class...

My original statement could have been, "If your improvement is apparent and substantial, then you'll be fine." It still would mean the same thing.

<3

Really? Well, I'm surprised then. To me "as long as" sounds like a condition that must be met. I guess that's why I asked you if you meant that it had to be a substantial improvement. Now I know.

d34d9823

Posts: 1879
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:52 pm

### Re: How did taking the LSAT three times impact your cycle.......

BigA wrote:Really? Well, I'm surprised then. To me "as long as" sounds like a condition that must be met. I guess that's why I asked you if you meant that it had to be a substantial improvement. Now I know.

"As long as" is definitely sufficient. Think of an example. As long as I keep my GPA up, my school will not kick me out. It's sufficient because if I keep it up, they will not kick me out. It's not necessary, as it's possible my GPA could drop but my school would not kick me out

honestabe84

Posts: 491
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 1:47 pm

### Re: How did taking the LSAT three times impact your cycle.......

I posted this earlier in the thread, and I was hoping some of you would comment.

This poll has kind of got me concerned (despite the high percentage that said "no impact").

I have a 162 and a 164 currently in the books. I am now preparing for June and have been scoring around 169 on my PTs. While I think there is a very good chance that I will score at least 165, there is still a good chance that I could score less - I scored 3-4 points below my average on my first two attempts.

I'm currently 50/50 at two schools that I would be more than happy attending, and I would absolutely hate to score below my two former scores and ruin myself. Do I throw my chips on the table or do I cash out?

februaryftw

Posts: 170
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:01 pm

### Re: How did taking the LSAT three times impact your cycle.......

honestabe84 wrote:I posted this earlier in the thread, and I was hoping some of you would comment.

This poll has kind of got me concerned (despite the high percentage that said "no impact").

I have a 162 and a 164 currently in the books. I am now preparing for June and have been scoring around 169 on my PTs. While I think there is a very good chance that I will score at least 165, there is still a good chance that I could score less - I scored 3-4 points below my average on my first two attempts.

I'm currently 50/50 at two schools that I would be more than happy attending, and I would absolutely hate to score below my two former scores and ruin myself. Do I throw my chips on the table or do I cash out?

Retake the test. Isn't it too late to not have a "cancel" on your record anyways? A cancel would be just as bad as a score in the same range as your old scores.

I think what people are arguing here is whether someone with 165 166 168 will have a worse cycle than someone with 168. The answer is, maybe/sort of/depends. You are in a situation where there is very little risk to taking a third time, and a great chance of reward. If you hit a 169, you are in a whole new position. Sure, if you bomb it maybe your chances go down to 40/60 at these two schools, but if you pick up 2 points I still think you are in a better position than you would have been.

The rewards of a decent increase are just too great at your range--169 is very different than a 164 for admissions/money and eventual job prospects. There should be zero doubt in your mind--just concentrate on doing well.

Good luck.

honestabe84

Posts: 491
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 1:47 pm

### Re: How did taking the LSAT three times impact your cycle.......

februaryftw wrote:
honestabe84 wrote:I posted this earlier in the thread, and I was hoping some of you would comment.

This poll has kind of got me concerned (despite the high percentage that said "no impact").

I have a 162 and a 164 currently in the books. I am now preparing for June and have been scoring around 169 on my PTs. While I think there is a very good chance that I will score at least 165, there is still a good chance that I could score less - I scored 3-4 points below my average on my first two attempts.

I'm currently 50/50 at two schools that I would be more than happy attending, and I would absolutely hate to score below my two former scores and ruin myself. Do I throw my chips on the table or do I cash out?

Retake the test. Isn't it too late to not have a "cancel" on your record anyways? A cancel would be just as bad as a score in the same range as your old scores.

I think what people are arguing here is whether someone with 165 166 168 will have a worse cycle than someone with 168. The answer is, maybe/sort of/depends. You are in a situation where there is very little risk to taking a third time, and a great chance of reward. If you hit a 169, you are in a whole new position. Sure, if you bomb it maybe your chances go down to 40/60 at these two schools, but if you pick up 2 points I still think you are in a better position than you would have been.

The rewards of a decent increase are just too great at your range--169 is very different than a 164 for admissions/money and eventual job prospects. There should be zero doubt in your mind--just concentrate on doing well.

Good luck.

Thank you very much for your advice. I think that if I don't retake (especially after prepping for so long), I will always wonder what could have happened. Besides, I'm way too young to be so risk averse. I think most people regret not taking enough risks than taking too many. I digress.

One part of your post I wasn't so clear on was when you wrote, "Isn't it too late to not have a "cancel" on your record anyways?" Do you really think that if I scored the same as my first score (which was lower than my second) it would be looked at the same way by adomms as a cancel?

Richie Tenenbaum

Posts: 2118
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:17 am

### Re: How did taking the LSAT three times impact your cycle.......

BigA wrote:
Really? Well, I'm surprised then. To me "as long as" sounds like a condition that must be met.

EX:
As long as I keep on eating KFC for every meal, I will not lose weight.

KFC every meal--> No weight loss.

You don't know for certain if there is no weight loss that then means I am continuing to eat KFC every meal. You can know that if weight loss occurs, then KFC is NOT being eaten every meal then.

For the record--I do not eat KFC every meal.

februaryftw

Posts: 170
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:01 pm

### Re: How did taking the LSAT three times impact your cycle.......

honestabe84 wrote:
februaryftw wrote:
honestabe84 wrote:I posted this earlier in the thread, and I was hoping some of you would comment.

This poll has kind of got me concerned (despite the high percentage that said "no impact").

I have a 162 and a 164 currently in the books. I am now preparing for June and have been scoring around 169 on my PTs. While I think there is a very good chance that I will score at least 165, there is still a good chance that I could score less - I scored 3-4 points below my average on my first two attempts.

I'm currently 50/50 at two schools that I would be more than happy attending, and I would absolutely hate to score below my two former scores and ruin myself. Do I throw my chips on the table or do I cash out?

Retake the test. Isn't it too late to not have a "cancel" on your record anyways? A cancel would be just as bad as a score in the same range as your old scores.

I think what people are arguing here is whether someone with 165 166 168 will have a worse cycle than someone with 168. The answer is, maybe/sort of/depends. You are in a situation where there is very little risk to taking a third time, and a great chance of reward. If you hit a 169, you are in a whole new position. Sure, if you bomb it maybe your chances go down to 40/60 at these two schools, but if you pick up 2 points I still think you are in a better position than you would have been.

The rewards of a decent increase are just too great at your range--169 is very different than a 164 for admissions/money and eventual job prospects. There should be zero doubt in your mind--just concentrate on doing well.

Good luck.

Thank you very much for your advice. I think that if I don't retake (especially after prepping for so long), I will always wonder what could have happened. Besides, I'm way too young to be so risk averse. I think most people regret not taking enough risks than taking too many. I digress.

One part of your post I wasn't so clear on was when you wrote, "Isn't it too late to not have a "cancel" on your record anyways?" Do you really think that if I scored the same as my first score (which was lower than my second) it would be looked at the same way by adomms as a cancel?

I don't really know exactly--it might depend, but I think it'll be close to the same--but I do think you'll still be judged as a three-time test-taker if you cancel. They'll read it as you canceling because you couldn't beat your old score. You should really only cancel in this situation if you know you did worse than a 164.