UC Irvine Law Ranking

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PoliticalJunkie
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Re: UC Irvine Law Ranking

Postby PoliticalJunkie » Fri May 21, 2010 11:38 am

It's amusing to see how much emphasis people put LSAT and GPA on the actual rankings themselves. They don't actually encompass the totality of the ranking criteria at US News. They also rely heavily on peer reviews which will force UCI to suck up T2 status for some time until their alumni base is more well known.

d34d9823
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Re: UC Irvine Law Ranking

Postby d34d9823 » Fri May 21, 2010 11:42 am

PoliticalJunkie wrote:It's amusing to see how much emphasis people put LSAT and GPA on the actual rankings themselves. They don't actually encompass the totality of the ranking criteria at US News. They also rely heavily on peer reviews which will force UCI to suck up T2 status for some time until their alumni base is more well known.

I think the reverse is actually true. UCI will debut in the rankings at a position above their employment placement ability. Assessment by practitioners is only weighted at .15 in US News, but is huge in terms of getting hired. On the other hand, assessment by peers is weighted at .25 and UCI is already known because of Chemerinsky.

Big Dog
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Re: UC Irvine Law Ranking

Postby Big Dog » Fri May 21, 2010 11:43 am

I agree with Ken. There is little doubt that UCI will start high. The problem Irvine Law has is its sustainability. Once the money runs out for scholarships, paying sticker at a new UC will not be as attractive as sticker at a school such as 'SC with its huge Trojan Family (and alum connections), particularly for someone desiring SoCal. Moreover, the state legislature (nee 'leadership'?) is on life support, so UC is getting hammered on its budget. While LS tuition can cover a lot of costs, cash is fungible and the overhead costs will be shared outward. Plus, the budget cuts elsewhere on campus affect total quality of life....

PoliticalJunkie
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Re: UC Irvine Law Ranking

Postby PoliticalJunkie » Fri May 21, 2010 11:48 am

d34dluk3 wrote:
PoliticalJunkie wrote:It's amusing to see how much emphasis people put LSAT and GPA on the actual rankings themselves. They don't actually encompass the totality of the ranking criteria at US News. They also rely heavily on peer reviews which will force UCI to suck up T2 status for some time until their alumni base is more well known.

I think the reverse is actually true. UCI will debut in the rankings at a position above their employment placement ability. Assessment by practitioners is only weighted at .15 in US News, but is huge in terms of getting hired. On the other hand, assessment by peers is weighted at .25 and UCI is already known because of Chemerinsky.


Credited, however, the quality of a dean is not necessarily transferred to quality of student body/alumni. I have a felling all the talk about UCI law, faculty, admin and numbers are going to hyp up expectations while the student body may not be able to live up to it - thus popping their big balloon.

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1800calturk
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Re: UC Irvine Law Ranking

Postby 1800calturk » Fri May 21, 2010 11:57 am

I am annoyed with UCI posts like this, especially since UCI admits like to throw out "UCI IS TOP 20!" and then freakishly lash out at anyone with a contrary opinion to their very contestable opinion. Dante has a strong opinion, and he's attacked personally for it. I was practically chased out of the UCI admissions thread for saying that UCI isn't "the one" that's going to somehow save us from the rankings Matrix we're all trapped in.

There's little point to these posts. Everyone's agendas are pretty clear, and proponents are only trying to make themselves feel good about their choice or otherwise think admissions offices read their posts and will give them an advantage in next year's cycle. Detractors are mostly being negative so that they can say "I told you so" if the ranking doesn't pan out, and they can just shrink away behind anonymity if it does, or they're bitter at more competition.

I don't think many people are arguing that UCI's influence isn't going to be regional, so the really interesting question regardless of rankings, is how are employers going to treat UCI lawyers relative to the powerhouses of the region. And no, UCI isn't a bastion of law in some OC legal market vacuum like they'd have you believe, it's competing for a piece of the same SoCal market that UCLA and USC are dominating. To say that UCI is going to stomp all over UCLA is ridiculous, ESPECIALLY because they are in the same undergrad system and they're using the power of UCs as one of their arguments, and to say that UCLA grads stay in LA and recoil from working in Orange is also ridiculous. UCLA grads can and do work in Orange. USC grads can and do work in Orange.

And as to hurting lower ranked schools, yeah it does. Because throwing another school into the mix in SoCal may or may not add more lawyers to the pool, but it definitely draws more lawyers into the SoCal market that otherwise might've gone somewhere else in the country, so it makes sense that people feel threatened.

To address the OP's post, I have no idea what the rankings will be. I'm inclined to think it's somewhere between what the naysayers project and the hype projects. And although I'm sure I'd be waving that flag as hard as the next guy if I had decided to attend UCI, from a now-unbiased prospective, the hype is a bit out of control. I sure as heck did not turn down a T14 for UCI, and they don't like my opinions on their admission thread because they can't attack me personally about my school and I'm not bitter about competition; I'm not even going after jobs on the same side of the country.

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jcl2
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Re: UC Irvine Law Ranking

Postby jcl2 » Fri May 21, 2010 11:58 am

I turned down the full ride at UCI last year, so I'll be happy as long as it is ranked below the school I chose instead :D Actually, I don't really care where it ends up ranked as long as it is not top 10 or something, which it won't be. I didn't want to be limited to southern California for employment.

My guess: It starts close to 20, due to solid numbers, high employed at graduation percentages, and $ spent per student (or whatever that criteria is) for the first few classes, but it will eventually settle out as a mid-lower Tier 1, on par with Davis and Hastings.

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Matthies
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Re: UC Irvine Law Ranking

Postby Matthies » Fri May 21, 2010 11:59 am

d34dluk3 wrote:
PoliticalJunkie wrote:It's amusing to see how much emphasis people put LSAT and GPA on the actual rankings themselves. They don't actually encompass the totality of the ranking criteria at US News. They also rely heavily on peer reviews which will force UCI to suck up T2 status for some time until their alumni base is more well known.

I think the reverse is actually true. UCI will debut in the rankings at a position above their employment placement ability. Assessment by practitioners is only weighted at .15 in US News, but is huge in terms of getting hired. On the other hand, assessment by peers is weighted at .25 and UCI is already known because of Chemerinsky.


I think that this is the main reason UCI won't do well when it first gets ranked. I was only half joking about "never heard of this school." Really the only people who memorize US news law ranking are pre-law and law students. I can garantnutee if I asked every lawyer I know 99% of them would never have heard of this school. Its going to take time for the schools rep to permeate into pratictions knowing it enough to choose it from a list of schools they have heard or, or know someone who actually graduated from.

d34d9823
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Re: UC Irvine Law Ranking

Postby d34d9823 » Fri May 21, 2010 12:00 pm

Matthies wrote:
d34dluk3 wrote:
PoliticalJunkie wrote:It's amusing to see how much emphasis people put LSAT and GPA on the actual rankings themselves. They don't actually encompass the totality of the ranking criteria at US News. They also rely heavily on peer reviews which will force UCI to suck up T2 status for some time until their alumni base is more well known.

I think the reverse is actually true. UCI will debut in the rankings at a position above their employment placement ability. Assessment by practitioners is only weighted at .15 in US News, but is huge in terms of getting hired. On the other hand, assessment by peers is weighted at .25 and UCI is already known because of Chemerinsky.


I think that this is the main reason UCI won't do well when it first gets ranked. I was only half joking about "never heard of this school." Really the only people who memorize US news law ranking are pre-law and law students. I can garantnutee if I asked every lawyer I know 99% of them would never have heard of this school. Its going to take time for the schools rep to permeate into pratictions knowing it enough to choose it from a list of schools they have heard or, or know someone who actually graduated from.

That's my point though. I expect them to do poorly on the practitioner assessment but well on the peer (other Deans) assessment because all of the Deans are familiar with Chemerinsky.

ViP
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Re: UC Irvine Law Ranking

Postby ViP » Fri May 21, 2010 12:09 pm

1800calturk wrote:I am annoyed with UCI posts like this, especially since UCI admits like to throw out "UCI IS TOP 20!" and then freakishly lash out at anyone with a contrary opinion to their very contestable opinion. Dante has a strong opinion, and he's attacked personally for it. I was practically chased out of the UCI admissions thread for saying that UCI isn't "the one" that's going to somehow save us from the rankings Matrix we're all trapped in.

There's little point to these posts. Everyone's agendas are pretty clear, and proponents are only trying to make themselves feel good about their choice or otherwise think admissions offices read their posts and will give them an advantage in next year's cycle. Detractors are mostly being negative so that they can say "I told you so" if the ranking doesn't pan out, and they can just shrink away behind anonymity if it does, or they're bitter at more competition.

I don't think many people are arguing that UCI's influence isn't going to be regional, so the really interesting question regardless of rankings, is how are employers going to treat UCI lawyers relative to the powerhouses of the region. And no, UCI isn't a bastion of law in some OC legal market vacuum like they'd have you believe, it's competing for a piece of the same SoCal market that UCLA and USC are dominating. To say that UCI is going to stomp all over UCLA is ridiculous, ESPECIALLY because they are in the same undergrad system and they're using the power of UCs as one of their arguments, and to say that UCLA grads stay in LA and recoil from working in Orange is also ridiculous. UCLA grads can and do work in Orange. USC grads can and do work in Orange.

And as to hurting lower ranked schools, yeah it does. Because throwing another school into the mix in SoCal may or may not add more lawyers to the pool, but it definitely draws more lawyers into the SoCal market that otherwise might've gone somewhere else in the country, so it makes sense that people feel threatened.

To address the OP's post, I have no idea what the rankings will be. I'm inclined to think it's somewhere between what the naysayers project and the hype projects. And although I'm sure I'd be waving that flag as hard as the next guy if I had decided to attend UCI, from a now-unbiased prospective, the hype is a bit out of control. I sure as heck did not turn down a T14 for UCI, and they don't like my opinions on their admission thread because they can't attack me personally about my school and I'm not bitter about competition; I'm not even going after jobs on the same side of the country.


Not sure where this came from... I don't recall you being chased out of any thread. You made a post (in the UCI thread) that was pretty critical of the program, and UCI students asked you to cool it. You then apologized, and we all lived happily ever after.

It's so unfair that literally one or two UCI advocates say obnoxious, immature, emotional, misguided comments and suddenly UCI students are all grouped together. Nobody does that with other schools and their students... Why not focus on the constructive pro-UCI comments? I'm not talking about you personally... just in general.

And for the record, those of us that will be attending UCI have certainly not pranced around saying "WE ARE T20." One or two people, maybe (although I don't even know if they're attending...), but the vast, vast majority of us have been nothing but humble, and I think that's gone unnoticed by many. I understand this, of course, because TLS will obviously be more attracted to offensive, controversial posts than warmy, fuzzy posts.

d34d9823
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Re: UC Irvine Law Ranking

Postby d34d9823 » Fri May 21, 2010 12:11 pm

ViP wrote:vast, vast majority of us have been nothing but humble.

How humble would you say you are? Very humble?

ViP
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Re: UC Irvine Law Ranking

Postby ViP » Fri May 21, 2010 12:12 pm

d34dluk3 wrote:
ViP wrote:vast, vast majority of us have been nothing but humble.

How humble would you say you are? Very humble?


I don't understand.

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autarkh
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Re: UC Irvine Law Ranking

Postby autarkh » Fri May 21, 2010 12:28 pm

ViP wrote:
d34dluk3 wrote:
ViP wrote:vast, vast majority of us have been nothing but humble.

How humble would you say you are? Very humble?


I don't understand.


He's intimating that true humility doesn't advertise itself.

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1800calturk
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Re: UC Irvine Law Ranking

Postby 1800calturk » Fri May 21, 2010 12:33 pm

ViP wrote:
Not sure where this came from... I don't recall you being chased out of any thread. You made a post (in the UCI thread) that was pretty critical of the program, and UCI students asked you to cool it. You then apologized, and we all lived happily ever after.

It's so unfair that literally one or two UCI advocates say obnoxious, immature, emotional, misguided comments and suddenly UCI students are all grouped together. Nobody does that with other schools and their students... Why not focus on the constructive pro-UCI comments? I'm not talking about you personally... just in general.

And for the record, those of us that will be attending UCI have certainly not pranced around saying "WE ARE T20." One or two people, maybe (although I don't even know if they're attending...), but the vast, vast majority of us have been nothing but humble, and I think that's gone unnoticed by many. I understand this, of course, because TLS will obviously be more attracted to offensive, controversial posts than warmy, fuzzy posts.


I was critical of UCI and then I was told by many people (in harsher wording) that it was inappropriate for me to express my opinions since I wasn't considering UCI anymore, and that my opinion of UCI shows I am insecure. To qualify my post, I'm talking about UCI proponents on this internet forum, not necessarily the students, and those two are not necessarily the same thing weirdly enough. The loudest champions are applicants still waiting on a decision.

If you want to talk about the majority, you, ruleser, and pany have been 3 UCI students I would be proud and happy to call my classmates and can name off the top of my head for being pleasant/mature people to have a dicsussion with. Besides these 3 though, I've got to say my experience with UCI advocates online has been largely unpleasant. I have even gotten some hate pms for my opinions. I've really only seen this level of inter-love/outer-hate from scientologists.

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holydonkey
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Re: UC Irvine Law Ranking

Postby holydonkey » Fri May 21, 2010 12:51 pm

autarkh wrote:
ViP wrote:
d34dluk3 wrote:
ViP wrote:vast, vast majority of us have been nothing but humble.

How humble would you say you are? Very humble?


I don't understand.
He's intimating that true humility doesn't advertise itself.
I humbly agree with this.

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stratocophic
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Re: UC Irvine Law Ranking

Postby stratocophic » Fri May 21, 2010 12:53 pm

d34dluk3 wrote:
ViP wrote:vast, vast majority of us have been nothing but humble.

How humble would you say you are? Very humble?
Humblest ever. Guaranteed T20 in the humble rankings.

Seriously though... what does everyone think the odds are that all of these new posters with post counts in the single digits trolling for UCI are actually the same person? I'd give it about a 40% chance.

ViP
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Re: UC Irvine Law Ranking

Postby ViP » Fri May 21, 2010 12:54 pm

d34dluk3 wrote:
PoliticalJunkie wrote:It's amusing to see how much emphasis people put LSAT and GPA on the actual rankings themselves. They don't actually encompass the totality of the ranking criteria at US News. They also rely heavily on peer reviews which will force UCI to suck up T2 status for some time until their alumni base is more well known.

I think the reverse is actually true. UCI will debut in the rankings at a position above their employment placement ability. Assessment by practitioners is only weighted at .15 in US News, but is huge in terms of getting hired. On the other hand, assessment by peers is weighted at .25 and UCI is already known because of Chemerinsky.


+1

I spoke with a corporate law professor at a T20 ASD, and when I mentioned that I'm from socal he asked me if I applied to UCI (actually, I said I'm thinking of attending UCI and he said "I was just about to ask you about that").

He said he doesn't know too much about the program, but word among top-professor-circles is that UCI is "the real deal" and seemingly a top school already.

He also said that he fears they might not be able to establish themselves as a top school, not because their numbers will drop or the students won't land jobs, but because they're focusing too much on public interest.

ViP
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Re: UC Irvine Law Ranking

Postby ViP » Fri May 21, 2010 12:57 pm

stratocophic wrote:
d34dluk3 wrote:
ViP wrote:vast, vast majority of us have been nothing but humble.

How humble would you say you are? Very humble?
Humblest ever. Guaranteed T20 in the humble rankings.

Seriously though... what does everyone think the odds are that all of these new posters with post counts in the single digits trolling for UCI are actually the same person? I'd give it about a 40% chance.


Hmm is that what I said?...

Interesting.

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stratocophic
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Re: UC Irvine Law Ranking

Postby stratocophic » Fri May 21, 2010 1:06 pm

ViP wrote:
stratocophic wrote:
d34dluk3 wrote:
ViP wrote:vast, vast majority of us have been nothing but humble.

How humble would you say you are? Very humble?
Humblest ever. Guaranteed T20 in the humble rankings.

Seriously though... what does everyone think the odds are that all of these new posters with post counts in the single digits trolling for UCI are actually the same person? I'd give it about a 40% chance.


Hmm is that what I said?...

Interesting.

jk, dude. Aside from the whole supply/demand thing, I have very little opposition to the possible dilution of USC/UCLA's talent pool due to UCI leaching their medians.

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: UC Irvine Law Ranking

Postby Mr. Matlock » Fri May 21, 2010 1:12 pm

1800calturk wrote:I was critical of UCI and then I was told by many people (in harsher wording) that it was inappropriate for me to express my opinions since I wasn't considering UCI anymore, and that my opinion of UCI shows I am insecure. To qualify my post, I'm talking about UCI proponents on this internet forum, not necessarily the students, and those two are not necessarily the same thing weirdly enough. The loudest champions are applicants still waiting on a decision.

If you want to talk about the majority, you, ruleser, and pany have been 3 UCI students I would be proud and happy to call my classmates and can name off the top of my head for being pleasant/mature people to have a dicsussion with. Besides these 3 though, I've got to say my experience with UCI advocates online has been largely unpleasant. I have even gotten some hate pms for my opinions. I've really only seen this level of inter-love/outer-hate from scientologists.

Image

Danteshek
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Re: UC Irvine Law Ranking

Postby Danteshek » Fri May 21, 2010 1:22 pm

I would not necessarily oppose a religious war conducted against scientologists.

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: UC Irvine Law Ranking

Postby Mr. Matlock » Fri May 21, 2010 1:25 pm

Danteshek wrote:I would not necessarily oppose a religious war conducted against scientologists.

I don't know, that Xenu guy sounds pretty bad-ass.

SandyC877
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Re: UC Irvine Law Ranking

Postby SandyC877 » Fri May 21, 2010 2:03 pm

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Last edited by SandyC877 on Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:53 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Grizz
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Re: UC Irvine Law Ranking

Postby Grizz » Fri May 21, 2010 2:08 pm

Danteshek wrote:I would not necessarily oppose a religious war conducted against scientologists.


Not before I decrease my Thetan levels.

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tru
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Re: UC Irvine Law Ranking

Postby tru » Fri May 21, 2010 2:26 pm

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flcath
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Re: UC Irvine Law Ranking

Postby flcath » Fri May 21, 2010 5:07 pm

UCI is doing everything right for a new LS: keep the class sizes small (allows for better student numbers, and a smaller--and thus more reputable--faculty), stock up on enough splitters and reverse splitters to game the numbers, go for quality over quantity in every aspect, hire a prominent dean to game the peer assessments, etc.

However, the idea that this will make it a Top 20 school is indeed laughable, and richly deserves the mockery that is brought down upon it in classrooms and law offices across the country. None of this is talking shit about UCI--which as I said is quite impressive objectively--but about the over-the-top claims of some of the people on here.

That having been said, the retards who believe this will not suddenly stop believing this in the face of overwhelming evidence and common sense, so I guess we'll have to wait for the rankings to put an end to this idiotic cult. Please do not commit mass suicides when your Tier 2 school is ouTTTed for what it really is.


Until then, have fun studying for the baby bar!




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