Top Law Schools

savagecheater wrote:

testmaster85 wrote:

R4NDM H3RO wrote:Whats up guys,

I'm looking for some advice to decide which school would be the better option for me. I got into American's part-time program with no money and St. John's full-time with $18,200 (with TAP it's like $20,000).

Is it really worth paying PT sticker for a school ranked 48 (I plan on working at the same time)? Or should I just go with the money at a T2.

I have hopes of transferring so would going to AU over STJ give me a better edge in terms of moving up higher? Or are their ranking difference negligible.

Thanks in advance!

Don't listen to him. Go to St John's for sure. People get jobs out of St. John's in NYC. Even biglaw. No debt = no risk if you don't, you can start your own practice in the business capital of the world.

No, no they don't.

If I had to take one of your options, I'd take Chicago-Kent, which is actually kind of respected in Chicago.

Think about going to St. John's in NY - you're behind Harvard, Yale, Columbia, NYU, Fordham, Cardozo, and probably a lot of T-14 grads that want to practice in NYC. The competition will be vicious.

As for top 20%? Make that top-1-3%. Don't go into law school assuming you'll do well/work hard enough to do well, because many of your classmates will make the same assumption.

Your ideas and logic are right. But thats just not the experience on the ground.

rad law wrote:Never ever ever ever go to a law school you wouldn't be happy graduating from. Don't ever count on transferring.

I wouldn't mind graduating form STJ because I would have little to no debt. I'm just keeping the option of transferring open.

rad law wrote:

testmaster85 wrote: Don't listen to him. Go to St John's for sure. People get jobs out of St. John's in NYC. Even biglaw. No debt = no risk if you don't, you can start your own practice in the business capital of the world.

Biglaw? St. John's doesn't even make the top 50 for NLJ250, meaning you have less than a 13.2% chance (50th ranked for NLJ250 prospects) of anything even resembling biglaw.

Also, have fun being a solo practitioner in a city glutted with solos and lawyers in general. Moreover, you will have no clients starting out, and no capital for a copy machine, secretary, office, etc. in one of the most expensive cities in the country. Moreover, you will probably have no idea how to actually practice law; hope you don't get sued for malpractice!

90% of small businesses fail. Like those odds?

St. John's is not known for biglaw, who are usually focused on pedigree. But it is known for producing some very rich and powerful people in NYC. True, it will be tough to get biglaw(top 10% prob do). But again there are other prestigious avenues where you can earn a lot of money including in house bank lawyer, i banker, regulatory work, and much more.

Also, don't listen to the risk-adverse wimp above. I've started companies and it's the most fun you'll ever fun after you get over the shit he talks about above.

testmaster85 wrote:

rad law wrote:

testmaster85 wrote: Don't listen to him. Go to St John's for sure. People get jobs out of St. John's in NYC. Even biglaw. No debt = no risk if you don't, you can start your own practice in the business capital of the world.

Biglaw? St. John's doesn't even make the top 50 for NLJ250, meaning you have less than a 13.2% chance (50th ranked for NLJ250 prospects) of anything even resembling biglaw.

Also, have fun being a solo practitioner in a city glutted with solos and lawyers in general. Moreover, you will have no clients starting out, and no capital for a copy machine, secretary, office, etc. in one of the most expensive cities in the country. Moreover, you will probably have no idea how to actually practice law; hope you don't get sued for malpractice!

90% of small businesses fail. Like those odds?

St. John's is not known for biglaw, who are usually focused on pedigree. But it is known for producing some very rich and powerful people in NYC. True, it will be tough to get biglaw(top 10% prob do). But again there are other prestigious avenues where you can earn a lot of money including in house bank lawyer, i banker, regulatory work, and much more.

Also, don't listen to the risk-adverse wimp above. I've started companies and it's the most fun you'll ever fun after you get over the shit he talks about above.

Also, I happen to know the top 2 people in the recent graduating 3L class right now at St. Johns. They are working at Cravath. Not bad.

testmaster85 wrote:

testmaster85 wrote:

rad law wrote:

testmaster85 wrote: Don't listen to him. Go to St John's for sure. People get jobs out of St. John's in NYC. Even biglaw. No debt = no risk if you don't, you can start your own practice in the business capital of the world.

Biglaw? St. John's doesn't even make the top 50 for NLJ250, meaning you have less than a 13.2% chance (50th ranked for NLJ250 prospects) of anything even resembling biglaw.

Also, have fun being a solo practitioner in a city glutted with solos and lawyers in general. Moreover, you will have no clients starting out, and no capital for a copy machine, secretary, office, etc. in one of the most expensive cities in the country. Moreover, you will probably have no idea how to actually practice law; hope you don't get sued for malpractice!

90% of small businesses fail. Like those odds?

St. John's is not known for biglaw, who are usually focused on pedigree. But it is known for producing some very rich and powerful people in NYC. True, it will be tough to get biglaw(top 10% prob do). But again there are other prestigious avenues where you can earn a lot of money including in house bank lawyer, i banker, regulatory work, and much more.

Also, don't listen to the risk-adverse wimp above. I've started companies and it's the most fun you'll ever fun after you get over the shit he talks about above.

Also, I happen to know the top 2 people in the recent graduating 3L class right now at St. Johns. They are working at Cravath. Not bad.

Also, ST JOHNS = Wustl Class of 2013 according to reports.

testmaster85 wrote:

rad law wrote:

testmaster85 wrote: Don't listen to him. Go to St John's for sure. People get jobs out of St. John's in NYC. Even biglaw. No debt = no risk if you don't, you can start your own practice in the business capital of the world.

Biglaw? St. John's doesn't even make the top 50 for NLJ250, meaning you have less than a 13.2% chance (50th ranked for NLJ250 prospects) of anything even resembling biglaw.

Also, have fun being a solo practitioner in a city glutted with solos and lawyers in general. Moreover, you will have no clients starting out, and no capital for a copy machine, secretary, office, etc. in one of the most expensive cities in the country. Moreover, you will probably have no idea how to actually practice law; hope you don't get sued for malpractice!

90% of small businesses fail. Like those odds?

St. John's is not known for biglaw, who are usually focused on pedigree. But it is known for producing some very rich and powerful people in NYC. True, it will be tough to get biglaw(top 10% prob do). But again there are other prestigious avenues where you can earn a lot of money including in house bank lawyer, i banker, regulatory work, and much more.

Also, don't listen to the risk-adverse wimp above. I've started companies and it's the most fun you'll ever fun after you get over the shit he talks about above.

OP, keep in mind that the rich and powerful St. John's grad have basically won the lotto; for every person who has gotten obscenely rich, there are probably a hundred who are just making it as lawyers and many who have left the law altogether.

in house bank lawyer - almost impossible to get in house these days without biglaw
i banker - law school teaches you nothing about i banking.
regulatory - Feds? depends what agency
much more - not really. A law degree basically only teaches you how to practice law, and not very well at that

Risk averse? Me? This isn't a calculated risk, it's a good way to fuck yourself.

testmaster85 wrote: [strike]Also, ST JOHNS = Wustl Class of 2013 according to reports.[/strike]

No.

I feel bad for radlaw for taking the troll bait hook, line, and sinker.

Hmm, let's see...

The more I think about it, the less I like the idea of OP finishing median at St. John's as opposed finishing at median at American.

bk187 wrote:I feel bad for radlaw for taking the troll bait hook, line, and sinker.

This is for OP's sake, plus there might be a little sliver of a chance that someone this ignorant exists. I'll stop now. Maybe.

testmaster85 wrote:
Also, ST JOHNS = Wustl Class of 2013 according to reports.

lulz wut?

3 Stripes wrote:Hmm, let's see...

The more I think about it, the less I like the idea of OP finishing median at St. John's as opposed finishing at median at American.

Both equal:

--ImageRemoved--

romothesavior wrote:

3 Stripes wrote:Hmm, let's see...

The more I think about it, the less I like the idea of OP finishing median at St. John's as opposed finishing at median at American.

Both equal:

--ImageRemoved--

Umm, that's not true and quite harsh.

AU grads actually place well in DC and the east coast. This is a fact. They don't get biglaw at the rate that many TLSers would want but a lot of that is due to self-selection. AU grads tend to go into government, clerkships, PI, etc. And even still, a good number of grads placed in NLJ250 firms last year. And in DC, there are always jobs for attorneys because they're in such high demand.

As for St. John's, I'm not entirely sure but being in NY has to help their grads somehow. And it's true that it does have a big alumni network.

WUSTL Class of 2013 is supposedly the one to bring down their rankings big time. I spoke to someone at USNWR who said that they were facing a cash crunch and took in many people without scholarships as a result. Thus, competitive students went elsewhere, like to UIUC and Northwestern(much larger and powerful schools). Apparently WUSTL Class of 2013 is going to bring down WUSTL's ranking by 4-7 points!!!

I think St John's is worth it. I implore you to take the full ride at St. John's. Believe me, if you go to American and finish median u will be a contract paralegal/attorney ur whole fucking life. U will support your kids on contract work. DO you really want? Go to St. John's...it is RESPECTED. American is not. Not anywhere. And especially not in NYC where is the one place with your choices you'll actually be able to make a million dollars and win the damn gold.

YOU WOULD BE CRAZY NOT TO TAKE ST JOHNS FULL RIDE.

3 Stripes wrote: They don't get biglaw at the rate that many TLSers would want but a lot of that is due to self-selection.

--ImageRemoved--

And in DC, there are always jobs for attorneys because they're in such high demand.

DC is one of the most glutted markets in the States.

As for St. John's, I'm not entirely sure but being in NY has to help their grads somehow.

Does is give them a heads up on the best document review gigs?

3 Stripes wrote:
AU grads actually place well in DC and the east coast. This is a fact. They don't get biglaw at the rate that many TLSers would want but a lot of that is due to self-selection. AU grads tend to go into government, clerkships, PI, etc. And even still, a good number of grads placed in NLJ250 firms last year. And in DC, there are always jobs for attorneys because they're in such high demand.

As for St. John's, I'm not entirely sure but being in NY has to help their grads somehow. And it's true that it does have a big alumni network.

American does not place a good number into biglaw. They placed less than 10% of their class into biglaw PRE-ITE (according to the NLJ 250 numbers for the class of 2005). St. John's was also below 10% pre-ITE. Both are probably 5% or less now.

A student at American is going up against a ton of schools in the area (GULC, UVA, GW, W&M, W&L, George Mason), not to mention all of the other T14 students that are flocking to D.C. (as well as some decent numbers from Vandy, WUSTL, UIUC, ND, etc.). When median students at good schools are struggling at median, you can bet your ass that students at American are screwed. And probably more screwed than median students at peer schools (lower T1 and T2) since there is no secondary market and the average student is paying out the ears to attend. I'd much rather go to a school like Utah, SMU, Florida, etc. because I would take out far less debt and have a realistic shot in my home market.

Also, Hyperbole Fail.

Big lulz at SMU = less debt.

testmaster85 wrote:WUSTL Class of 2013 is supposedly the one to bring down their rankings big time. I spoke to someone at USNWR who said that they were facing a cash crunch and took in many people without scholarships as a result. Thus, competitive students went elsewhere, like to UIUC and Northwestern(much larger and powerful schools). Apparently WUSTL Class of 2013 is going to bring down WUSTL's ranking by 4-7 points!!!

This is absolutely and utterly absurd. No one at USNWR would have any clue what the c/o 2013's stats are because they haven't been released. The school isn't even positive what their numbers will be. And WUSTL still gave out tons of money this year, so I don't know how you are making this claim that WUSTL didn't give out many scholarships. Look at LSN and check out all the HUGE scholarships they gave out.

Also, even if WUSTL somehow dropped its median LSAT/GPA (not going to happen, btw), they would still be light years ahead of St. John's. WUSTL could drop into the third tier of USNWR's retarded rankings and it would still be:

WUSTL>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>St. John's

Hell, WUSTL could shoot up to #1 in the rankings next year and it would still be:

Yale>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>WUSTL

You are a moron for putting so much stock in the rankings, and an even bigger moron for asserting that WUSTL's c/o 2013 is going to drop off the map and destroy the school's ranking.

kalvano wrote:Big lulz at SMU = less debt.

In all likelihood, SMU would be cheaper for the average applicant because 1) American gives out very little scholarship money, and 2) they are notorious for YPing good candidates (seriously, look at their LSN graphs... they're ridiculous), and 3) D.C. is ridiculously expensive (although I'm sure Dallas ain't cheap either).

But okay... you're right, at sticker there isn't a whole lot of difference. Maybe 10k due to the tuition and COL differences. But just replace SMU with another random, cheap lower T1 or T2 in a decent secondary market and my point remains the same.

romothesavior wrote:

testmaster85 wrote:WUSTL Class of 2013 is supposedly the one to bring down their rankings big time. I spoke to someone at USNWR who said that they were facing a cash crunch and took in many people without scholarships as a result. Thus, competitive students went elsewhere, like to UIUC and Northwestern(much larger and powerful schools). Apparently WUSTL Class of 2013 is going to bring down WUSTL's ranking by 4-7 points!!!

This is absolutely and utterly absurd. No one at USNWR would have any clue what the c/o 2013's stats are because they haven't been released. The school isn't even positive what their numbers will be. And WUSTL still gave out tons of money this year, so I don't know how you are making this claim that WUSTL didn't give out many scholarships. Look at LSN and check out all the HUGE scholarships they gave out.

Also, even if WUSTL somehow dropped its median LSAT/GPA (not going to happen, btw), they would still be light years ahead of St. John's. WUSTL could drop into the third tier of USNWR's retarded rankings and it would still be:

WUSTL>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>St. John's

Hell, WUSTL could shoot up to #1 in the rankings next year and it would still be:

Yale>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>WUSTL

You are a moron for putting so much stock in the rankings, and an even bigger moron for asserting that WUSTL's c/o 2013 is going to drop off the map and destroy the school's ranking.

C'mon. Obvious troll is obvious.

Haha yes they are obvious. I even knew it while I was typing. But I couldn't resist... I'm pretty loyal to my school.

rad law wrote:

testmaster85 wrote: Don't listen to him. Go to St John's for sure. People get jobs out of St. John's in NYC. Even biglaw. No debt = no risk if you don't, you can start your own practice in the business capital of the world.

Biglaw? St. John's doesn't even make the top 50 for NLJ250, meaning you have less than a 13.2% chance (50th ranked for NLJ250 prospects) of anything even resembling biglaw.

Also, have fun being a solo practitioner in a city glutted with solos and lawyers in general. Moreover, you will have no clients starting out, and no capital for a copy machine, secretary, office, etc. in one of the most expensive cities in the country. Moreover, you will probably have no idea how to actually practice law; hope you don't get sued for malpractice!

90% of small businesses fail. Like those odds?

goodness...such a gloomy post.

romothesavior wrote:Haha yes they are obvious. I even knew it while I was typing. But I couldn't resist... I'm pretty loyal to my school.

<--transfer out of WUSTL

bk187 wrote:

romothesavior wrote:

testmaster85 wrote:WUSTL Class of 2013 is supposedly the one to bring down their rankings big time. I spoke to someone at USNWR who said that they were facing a cash crunch and took in many people without scholarships as a result. Thus, competitive students went elsewhere, like to UIUC and Northwestern(much larger and powerful schools). Apparently WUSTL Class of 2013 is going to bring down WUSTL's ranking by 4-7 points!!!

This is absolutely and utterly absurd. No one at USNWR would have any clue what the c/o 2013's stats are because they haven't been released. The school isn't even positive what their numbers will be. And WUSTL still gave out tons of money this year, so I don't know how you are making this claim that WUSTL didn't give out many scholarships. Look at LSN and check out all the HUGE scholarships they gave out.

Also, even if WUSTL somehow dropped its median LSAT/GPA (not going to happen, btw), they would still be light years ahead of St. John's. WUSTL could drop into the third tier of USNWR's retarded rankings and it would still be:

WUSTL>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>St. John's

Hell, WUSTL could shoot up to #1 in the rankings next year and it would still be:

Yale>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>WUSTL

You are a moron for putting so much stock in the rankings, and an even bigger moron for asserting that WUSTL's c/o 2013 is going to drop off the map and destroy the school's ranking.

LOL, relax it was a joke. Looks like I hit a sore spot.

Haha well played, well played. I knew in the back of my mind that you were trolling but I still couldn't resist.

Where did you transfer to?

Also, fwiw, OP should still not go to American.