Radical thought: line up a summer position BEFORE 1L starts?

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legalized
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Radical thought: line up a summer position BEFORE 1L starts?

Postby legalized » Fri May 07, 2010 1:28 pm

From bigdebtsmalllaw blog:
Caveat Emptor, I am sure you are aware that it did not used to be like this. Gerry Spence, in his book, “With Justice For None,” goes off on U.S. law schools. He mentions that he once took some practice LSATs, after many years of successful practice, to see how well he could do. He mentions that he did so poorly on them, that he crumpled up his practice exams. He went on to have a famed, splendid legal career, without a standardized admittance test to potentially bar him from law school.

Likewise, I had one elderly professor who told the class that when he was applying to law school, he needed to get at a signed statement from at least one attorney who would vouch for his “character” and be willing to hire him upon graduation. There is no such requirement today. All you need to do now is register with LSAC, get a halfway decent score on the LSAT, earn a solid UGPA, and send in your letters of recommendation and your personal essay/resume. The schools don’t care how much debt you take on (or your chances of legal employment) – as long as your loans/scholarship/savings is enough to cover tuition. Once you sign, you are stuck holding all that debt. And the law school takes in another cla$$ of $tudent$.


Wow that sounds so nice, with everything going on now. I have seen another article that states apprenticeship should should be the last year or two of law school.

Someone I know who is will be articling in the UK (he is in the West Indies currently) says they HAVE to do this to pass their bar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articled_clerk

I personally think it's a nice idea since only 1L grades count for anything. I think this model died out because it wasn't allowing access for everyone...black law students, I am sure would have had a harder time back then finding a lawyer to apprentice with, given the laws and attitudes of the old days (some of which still exist).

Has anyone been thinking of working any contacts they have now to line up some kind of work in a sensible stable field before you set food in the law school door and become liable for tuition books and fees?

Also read the rest of the blog post and the comments...

One thing I think that is overlooked though, is that people prefer lawyers who look like them and have similar background. So this is a good time for minorities to be a lawyer precisely because there are not a lot of them. But of course I am not talking about minorities in biglaw since those clients don't care what the lawyer looks like, I'm thinking.

--LinkRemoved--

So yeah if we approached law school with an apprenticeship model in mind, how would you propose people get this done? Offer to work for free and therefore know (if accepted) to save up living expenses for the 1L summer from the pre-1L summer's job? Suggestions? Thoughts? Discuss!

270910
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Re: Radical thought: line up a summer position BEFORE 1L starts?

Postby 270910 » Fri May 07, 2010 2:30 pm

I didn't bother reading your post, but that's impossible.*

*For the relevant, average 1L. Even with absurd connections, you'll get a 'wtf?' if you try to actually get a job before you've started law school. Nobody hires that far out, and you'd look like an uber obnoxious gunning striver d-bag for trying.

Slow your roll.

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IzziesGal
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Re: Radical thought: line up a summer position BEFORE 1L starts?

Postby IzziesGal » Fri May 07, 2010 2:34 pm

disco_barred wrote:I didn't bother reading your post, but that's impossible.*

*For the relevant, average 1L. Even with absurd connections, you'll get a 'wtf?' if you try to actually get a job before you've started law school. Nobody hires that far out, and you'd look like an uber obnoxious gunning striver d-bag for trying.

Slow your roll.


+1. Your post was too long, and I am in finals mode, so I don't have time for extra reading.

BUT yeah. First, you're not even legally allowed to talk to firms and most gov't agencies before Dec. 1 of your 1L year per NALP guidelines.

And second, no one will hire this far out (perhaps if it's your dad's or aunt's firm, you know you're a lock....but I am assuming this isn't what you're talking about). Having not even started law school, no one is going to take your application seriously. What's there to assure them that you will actually attend and not change your mind? Or that you won't drop out mid year? Too many variables. And 1L summer internships are NOT like 2L recruiting, where they're hiring for years out. They are only filling an immediate need - for summer help. Of THAT year.

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D. H2Oman
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Re: Radical thought: line up a summer position BEFORE 1L starts?

Postby D. H2Oman » Fri May 07, 2010 2:36 pm

legalized wrote:From bigdebtsmalllaw blog


Stopped reading.

270910
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Re: Radical thought: line up a summer position BEFORE 1L starts?

Postby 270910 » Fri May 07, 2010 2:42 pm

D. H2Oman wrote:
legalized wrote:From bigdebtsmalllaw blog


Stopped reading.


You got further than I did :D

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legalease9
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Re: Radical thought: line up a summer position BEFORE 1L starts?

Postby legalease9 » Fri May 07, 2010 2:43 pm

IzziesGal wrote:
disco_barred wrote:I didn't bother reading your post, but that's impossible.*

*For the relevant, average 1L. Even with absurd connections, you'll get a 'wtf?' if you try to actually get a job before you've started law school. Nobody hires that far out, and you'd look like an uber obnoxious gunning striver d-bag for trying.

Slow your roll.


+1. Your post was too long, and I am in finals mode, so I don't have time for extra reading.

BUT yeah. First, you're not even legally allowed to talk to firms and most gov't agencies before Dec. 1 of your 1L year per NALP guidelines.

And second, no one will hire this far out (perhaps if it's your dad's or aunt's firm, you know you're a lock....but I am assuming this isn't what you're talking about). Having not even started law school, no one is going to take your application seriously. What's there to assure them that you will actually attend and not change your mind? Or that you won't drop out mid year? Too many variables. And 1L summer internships are NOT like 2L recruiting, where they're hiring for years out. They are only filling an immediate need - for summer help. Of THAT year.


THIS! Don't try it.

270910
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Re: Radical thought: line up a summer position BEFORE 1L starts?

Postby 270910 » Fri May 07, 2010 2:44 pm

legalease9 wrote:
IzziesGal wrote:
disco_barred wrote:I didn't bother reading your post, but that's impossible.*

*For the relevant, average 1L. Even with absurd connections, you'll get a 'wtf?' if you try to actually get a job before you've started law school. Nobody hires that far out, and you'd look like an uber obnoxious gunning striver d-bag for trying.

Slow your roll.


+1. Your post was too long, and I am in finals mode, so I don't have time for extra reading.

BUT yeah. First, you're not even legally allowed to talk to firms and most gov't agencies before Dec. 1 of your 1L year per NALP guidelines.

And second, no one will hire this far out (perhaps if it's your dad's or aunt's firm, you know you're a lock....but I am assuming this isn't what you're talking about). Having not even started law school, no one is going to take your application seriously. What's there to assure them that you will actually attend and not change your mind? Or that you won't drop out mid year? Too many variables. And 1L summer internships are NOT like 2L recruiting, where they're hiring for years out. They are only filling an immediate need - for summer help. Of THAT year.


THIS! Don't try it.


You heard of Obama's FEMA death camps? Turns out they were for people who violate NALP hiring guidelines.

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IzziesGal
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Re: Radical thought: line up a summer position BEFORE 1L starts?

Postby IzziesGal » Fri May 07, 2010 2:45 pm

I heard that's what the CIA black sites were really for?? Weird.

legalized
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Re: Radical thought: line up a summer position BEFORE 1L starts?

Postby legalized » Fri May 07, 2010 3:53 pm

Actually, I was obviously talking about personal connections, working on them from now so you can have something lined up by the time the summer rolls around if biglaw isn't your goal or isn't possible.

Why would you walk into a stranger's office and try to get them to commit to you when they don't know you?

smh.

Many people going into law know someone who is a lawyer or who is friends with a lawyer...or are related to a lawyer. Not all of them might have hiring power but they might know another lawyer who does.

People need to start thinking of alternatives to whatever the tradition is instead of throwing up blogs like bigdebtsmalllaw left and right when the traditional course becomes obsolete. If you have been accepted to a school what you learn in one semester doesn't radically change what you can do on the first law school job ever, so if you can start networking through familiar elements ahead of time and not just immediately beg them for a summer job but work your way up to that point...why not?

Who does the NALP thing cover? Isn't that for people who come recruiting on your school's campus? That can't apply to people in your own informal network.

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Re: Radical thought: line up a summer position BEFORE 1L starts?

Postby 270910 » Fri May 07, 2010 3:54 pm

legalized wrote:[strike]Actually, I was obviously talking about personal connections, working on them from now so you can have something lined up by the time the summer rolls around if biglaw isn't your goal or isn't possible.

Why would you walk into a stranger's office and try to get them to commit to you when they don't know you?

smh.

Many people going into law know someone who is a lawyer or who is friends with a lawyer...or are related to a lawyer. Not all of them might have hiring power but they might know another lawyer who does.

People need to start thinking of alternatives to whatever the tradition is instead of throwing up blogs like bigdebtsmalllaw left and right when the traditional course becomes obsolete. If you have been accepted to a school what you learn in one semester doesn't radically change what you can do on the first law school job ever, so if you can start networking through familiar elements ahead of time and not just immediately beg them for a summer job but work your way up to that point...why not?

Who does the NALP thing cover? Isn't that for people who come recruiting on your school's campus? That can't apply to people in your own informal network.[/strike]


I love that there's just a button that says strike. It's so satisfying to post one of these.

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wakefield
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Re: Radical thought: line up a summer position BEFORE 1L starts?

Postby wakefield » Fri May 07, 2010 3:56 pm

legalized wrote:
One thing I think that is overlooked though, is that people prefer lawyers who look like them and have similar background. So this is a good time for minorities to be a lawyer precisely because there are not a lot of them. But of course I am not talking about minorities in biglaw since those clients don't care what the lawyer looks like, I'm thinking.



whaaat?

acdisagod
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Re: Radical thought: line up a summer position BEFORE 1L starts?

Postby acdisagod » Fri May 07, 2010 4:00 pm

disco_barred wrote:
legalease9 wrote:
IzziesGal wrote:
disco_barred wrote:I didn't bother reading your post, but that's impossible.*

*For the relevant, average 1L. Even with absurd connections, you'll get a 'wtf?' if you try to actually get a job before you've started law school. Nobody hires that far out, and you'd look like an uber obnoxious gunning striver d-bag for trying.

Slow your roll.


+1. Your post was too long, and I am in finals mode, so I don't have time for extra reading.

BUT yeah. First, you're not even legally allowed to talk to firms and most gov't agencies before Dec. 1 of your 1L year per NALP guidelines.

And second, no one will hire this far out (perhaps if it's your dad's or aunt's firm, you know you're a lock....but I am assuming this isn't what you're talking about). Having not even started law school, no one is going to take your application seriously. What's there to assure them that you will actually attend and not change your mind? Or that you won't drop out mid year? Too many variables. And 1L summer internships are NOT like 2L recruiting, where they're hiring for years out. They are only filling an immediate need - for summer help. Of THAT year.


THIS! Don't try it.


You heard of Obama's FEMA death camps? Turns out they were for people who violate NALP hiring guidelines.


lmao

legalized
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Re: Radical thought: line up a summer position BEFORE 1L starts?

Postby legalized » Fri May 07, 2010 8:41 pm

disco_barred wrote:
legalized wrote:[strike]Actually, I was obviously talking about personal connections, working on them from now so you can have something lined up by the time the summer rolls around if biglaw isn't your goal or isn't possible.

Why would you walk into a stranger's office and try to get them to commit to you when they don't know you?

smh.

Many people going into law know someone who is a lawyer or who is friends with a lawyer...or are related to a lawyer. Not all of them might have hiring power but they might know another lawyer who does.

People need to start thinking of alternatives to whatever the tradition is instead of throwing up blogs like bigdebtsmalllaw left and right when the traditional course becomes obsolete. If you have been accepted to a school what you learn in one semester doesn't radically change what you can do on the first law school job ever, so if you can start networking through familiar elements ahead of time and not just immediately beg them for a summer job but work your way up to that point...why not?

Who does the NALP thing cover? Isn't that for people who come recruiting on your school's campus? That can't apply to people in your own informal network.[/strike]


I love that there's just a button that says strike. It's so satisfying to post one of these.


lol glad you got that out of your system.

So can anyone tell me why there use to be an apprentice system and it has now been made illegal?

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IzziesGal
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Re: Radical thought: line up a summer position BEFORE 1L starts?

Postby IzziesGal » Fri May 07, 2010 9:06 pm

You're still going to have a hard time lining up a position before you even start school. There are still too many variables. Because of the Dec. 1st rule, most places don't start posting job announcements until around this time, or require 1st semester transcripts (which you obviously don't have) as part of the application. I would save your connections until your first semester is finished, otherwise you're going to risk looking really foolish to them.

legalized
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Re: Radical thought: line up a summer position BEFORE 1L starts?

Postby legalized » Fri May 07, 2010 9:30 pm

IzziesGal wrote:You're still going to have a hard time lining up a position before you even start school. There are still too many variables. Because of the Dec. 1st rule, most places don't start posting job announcements until around this time, or require 1st semester transcripts (which you obviously don't have) as part of the application. I would save your connections until your first semester is finished, otherwise you're going to risk looking really foolish to them.


Sounds like you are referring to big or midsize firms. What about small firms, does anyone intern with them, and are they bound by the same rules if they are not part of OCI and already knew the person? Just wondering.

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Matthies
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Re: Radical thought: line up a summer position BEFORE 1L starts?

Postby Matthies » Fri May 07, 2010 10:46 pm

Work your conncetions, NALP guidlines take effect once your enroled. if you can secure a gig between now and then and don't, then you gave it a shot,. Besides, there's your intro, Mr, lawyer freind can I ask you a question this NALP thing has me all confused, if I really want to work here and train under your extenstive knowldage could I do that durin 1L summer, or is that again the rules?

waxloaf
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Re: Radical thought: line up a summer position BEFORE 1L starts?

Postby waxloaf » Fri May 07, 2010 10:55 pm

Haven't read the whole thread, but did read the bold part about having a current atty to vouch for your character and one who hire you, I think most people who have worked in a legal field previous to school would have such a connection.

The atty I work for now has offered to hire me summer after 1L, not a big firm or anything and chances are I won't be doing it, but it certainly is nice to know that spot is available.

edit: decided to read most of thread. I think there are many reasons why the apprentice system is no longer the primary way to enter a legal career, but there are certainly attys like my boss who like to mentor young folks interested in the law. It usually takes a connection or two and the means to work for free though.

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Re: Radical thought: line up a summer position BEFORE 1L starts?

Postby Mr. Pablo » Fri May 07, 2010 11:11 pm

In ye olde days the only way to be come a lawyer was to apprentice, just like any other trade. Some firms trained many lawyers, and began charging for the apprenticeship. These firms became known for teaching, and eventually merged with private universities like Harvard, or they became stand-alone schools. It made a lot of sense because practicing attorneys would no longer have to spend time teaching their apprentices legal theory, common law, and other such stuff; they could just hire someone who knew the basics from the get go. This was so successful that it became the standard. Why on earth would a firm spend time and money on teaching the basics when they could just pick who they wanted from a pre-trained pool of applicants? It's not what makes sense for the student, its what makes business sense to the employer.

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IzziesGal
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Re: Radical thought: line up a summer position BEFORE 1L starts?

Postby IzziesGal » Sat May 08, 2010 1:37 am

Wait - are we talking about working a connection here, or actually looking for an offer? There is a big difference between the two.

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jlnoa0915
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Re: Radical thought: line up a summer position BEFORE 1L starts?

Postby jlnoa0915 » Sat May 08, 2010 1:40 am

Already have a job lined up at my current firm for the summer and graduation if I want to take advantage of it.

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Kohinoor
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Re: Radical thought: line up a summer position BEFORE 1L starts?

Postby Kohinoor » Sat May 08, 2010 3:21 am

D. H2Oman wrote:
legalized wrote:From bigdebtsmalllaw blog


Stopped reading.

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pilawpcv
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Re: Radical thought: line up a summer position BEFORE 1L starts?

Postby pilawpcv » Sat May 08, 2010 5:01 am

The point of this post about apprenticeship aka practical education is not a bad idea, in my opinion. Education is currently trending towards the handout. It started in elementary schools and is working its way up--check the number of colleges that now have service learning classes. Northeastern already has an apprentice-type system; I wonder if it will catch on anywhere else.

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creamedcats
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Re: Radical thought: line up a summer position BEFORE 1L starts?

Postby creamedcats » Sat May 08, 2010 5:30 am

Your post didn't seem to have a lot to do with your post title, but I have lined up an internship to fill the gap between my current job and 1L. It's only quasi law-related, but I don't see how any apprenticeship system is going to take people who haven't done 1L. Just fill the gaps on your resume with interesting and valuable (fun, dare I say?) experience and work hard in school.

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Matthies
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Re: Radical thought: line up a summer position BEFORE 1L starts?

Postby Matthies » Sat May 08, 2010 12:25 pm

IzziesGal wrote:Wait - are we talking about working a connection here, or actually looking for an offer? There is a big difference between the two.


No, there's not

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IzziesGal
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Re: Radical thought: line up a summer position BEFORE 1L starts?

Postby IzziesGal » Tue May 11, 2010 4:17 pm

Matthies wrote:
IzziesGal wrote:Wait - are we talking about working a connection here, or actually looking for an offer? There is a big difference between the two.


No, there's not


Um, yes, there is. You can mention to a family friend, former job, etc. that you're going to law school and would be interested in working at X during your summer, just to plant the seed. That's entirely different from handing them your resume and cover letter and trying to lock in a job before even starting class. The first is old fashioned networking. The second is.....I don't know what.




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