So conflicted

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mugrad06
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So conflicted

Postby mugrad06 » Thu May 06, 2010 8:31 pm

So I heard from one of the two schools I was waiting on. Ohio Northern waitlisted me. Kinda surprised. Surely thought I was going to get rejected. I know it's a 3rd tier (hey WVU was until recently) And I did do some research, one of the firms here that would be consider like biglaw (gotta remember this is WV) Goodwin & Goodwin, there are quite a few from ONU. I have to send in a LOCI if I want to stay on the WL and should know a final decision by the 31st. I just went to the site to check how much tutition was, and they raised it. It is now just shy of 31,000 (up 4,000). Def more than the other school I did actually get into. I'm so conflicted. I had all but given up on going, but this kinda made me rethink, or really 2nd guess. I know how bad the legal market is, 40,000 or more graduates a yr and most are having a difficult time finding a job. The wall street journal just ran an article, and wow someone from the ABA actually said those considering going to law school might want to reconsider. 31,000 a year for just tutition. Not sure how much the rest of the COA would be, but it's just like damn is it even worth it?

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deadpanic
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Re: So conflicted

Postby deadpanic » Thu May 06, 2010 8:33 pm

mugrad06 wrote:...but it's just like damn is it even worth it?


No. Not at all.

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D. H2Oman
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Re: So conflicted

Postby D. H2Oman » Thu May 06, 2010 8:33 pm

No

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Ragged
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Re: So conflicted

Postby Ragged » Thu May 06, 2010 9:13 pm

I only skimmed over your post but after I saw "3rd tier" I can safely say its not worth it.

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Knock
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Re: So conflicted

Postby Knock » Fri May 07, 2010 4:08 am

Ragged wrote:I only skimmed over your post but after I saw "3rd tier" I can safely say its not worth it.


+1

LateNight
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Re: So conflicted

Postby LateNight » Fri May 07, 2010 4:15 am

Is this a troll? LSAT / GPA?

TTT isn't even worth a full-ride unless you want to take a few years of and chill.

LateNight
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Re: So conflicted

Postby LateNight » Fri May 07, 2010 4:35 am

So, I looked at some of your other posts and I want to save you from trouble.

First, if you really want to practice law then it is something that you can come back to later. Right now it would be monumentally stupid for you to take out 150,000 dollars to attend a school that did not give you a real shot at a job. Even students from T25 schools are having trouble finding jobs right now.

Unless you, or your parents, are loaded then law school would probably turn into a disaster for you. I say this because the pressure of having the equivalent of paying back a mortgage with a job, that if you are lucky will pay 45,000 a year, is unimaginable. Chances are you will be unable to find a job that can even come close to helping you pay that back, leading you to search for work outside of law or default on your loans.

If you could go for free / had a full scholarship you would have no downside, other than wasting 3 years, but the fact of the matter is that you have a huge potential life changing downside if it does not work out. Imagine that you do not graduate in the top half of your class from a TTTT or TTT law school; you will be financially ruined.

I know that there are people on here who will disagree with me, but, if I were in your position I would go into teaching (as you indicated you were interested in doing.) 1) The job prospects are much better, and you will probably make more than you would as a lawyer from a TTTT or TTT school. 2) If your intent is to help people, law is not the way to do this. Teaching would probably be a more rewarding career path. 3) If you really still want to go to law school, and decide you hate teaching, you can probably have more financial savings to be able to finance such an endeavor.


Good luck man!

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deadpanic
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Re: So conflicted

Postby deadpanic » Fri May 07, 2010 8:40 am

Knockglock wrote:
Ragged wrote:I only skimmed over your post but after I saw "3rd tier" I can safely say its not worth it.


+1


While this is the case in this thread, I don't agree with this method. If the person wanted to attend a 3rd tier state school with reasonable tuition like Wyoming, Montana, etc. and work in those states, then it could be worth it.

Now if they want to attend a T3/T4 that is 30K+ a year? Hell no it is not worth it.

OP-
If you really want to attend law school, I'd really recommend hiring tutors, taking LSAT classes, and just devoting all of your free time to studying for the LSAT. I think if you did this properly you could get into WVU, which dominates WV as you know.

mugrad06
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Re: So conflicted

Postby mugrad06 » Fri May 07, 2010 9:27 am

Sorry I haven't been able to reply back. No internet at home right now so I had to wait till I got to work. Is it worth it, was more rethorical than anything. I was really just venting. I was just having a discussion with the attorney I work for about the situation and still can't believe how much law schools cost nowadays. (When he went to WVU back in the 80s it was 1,200 a semester) There is just no way to afford it. 150,000+ in loans, not to mention the interest that accumulates the 3 yrs in school, add to that the 17,000 I have from undergrad and grad loans already. Parents aren't loaded, mom is retiring in June and I believe my dad will be in Oct. We have money, just not the kind that would be able to put me through LS. Besides I think any disposable income my parents have will be put to going to Germany to see their granddaughter and newborn grandson (who can blame them - hell I wanna go over too)

As for the LSAT, I honestly don't feel that I can get my score up 10 pts. I know my study habits, the way I think etc.. and I have been doing some practice test and still only scoring in the 140s. I have had a class before, 3 months of hardcore studying but apparently it isn't a test I can learn. Hate to say it because I want to have some glimer of hope, but I have to be realistic.

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deadpanic
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Re: So conflicted

Postby deadpanic » Fri May 07, 2010 10:13 am

Alright, so I snooped on LSN and saw your stats. I think you only need to pull up your LSAT by 6 or 7 points for WVU, not 10, and you may even get in with a 150 being a WV resident. You are a lot closer than you think. If you just dedicate everything you have to LSAT prep, a 4 point jump is very reasonable. Please do not attend ONU or Appalachian. I personally know an ONU grad and they went over $150,000 in debt and this person has just now, 3 years later, got a job as an attorney. Their family almost had to file for bankruptcy several times.

Best of luck to you.

mugrad06
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Re: So conflicted

Postby mugrad06 » Fri May 07, 2010 10:28 am

yeah but WVU has also been dinging people with low to mid 150s. I have several friends that applied there that aren't on LSN, 2 of which got in but they had 158/160 respectively and a couple that got rejected, one with 152 and the other 150. (one other friend is still waiting and she applied back in Oct with a 156/3.4 gpa) And all are WV residents. It's really a crap shoot. Even if I do manage 4-5pts, there is still that possibilty that they will still say nope we don't want you. How do they look at an applicant that has applied 3 times in the last 5 yrs? cuz if I try again thats exactly what I'll be. I really don't want to end up in the same situation I am now a yr from now. Honestly, I am the pt in my life where I really want to make something of myself, get my life started and finally move out of my parents house.

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deadpanic
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Re: So conflicted

Postby deadpanic » Fri May 07, 2010 10:52 am

mugrad06 wrote: Honestly, I am the pt in my life where I really want to make something of myself, get my life started and finally move out of my parents house.


I know what you are saying & don't take this the wrong way, but it is a good possibility that if you attend ONU or Appalachian, you may move out now, but in a few years you will be moving back in. That is a lot of debt to take on for those schools.

Think of it this way: people are taking out that kind of money to attend the top law schools and even they may have a hard time paying it back. Law school is not always the solution to a new career.

I really wish you the best and know you have a tough decision ahead. Good luck!

mugrad06
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Re: So conflicted

Postby mugrad06 » Fri May 07, 2010 11:02 am

deadpanic wrote:
mugrad06 wrote: Honestly, I am the pt in my life where I really want to make something of myself, get my life started and finally move out of my parents house.


I know what you are saying & don't take this the wrong way, but it is a good possibility that if you attend ONU or Appalachian, you may move out now, but in a few years you will be moving back in. That is a lot of debt to take on for those schools.

Think of it this way: people are taking out that kind of money to attend the top law schools and even they may have a hard time paying it back. Law school is not always the solution to a new career.

I really wish you the best and know you have a tough decision ahead. Good luck!



oh sorry I didn't mean it as in I'll go to the TTT or even TTTT just to get out of my parents house. Shit that would be insanely stupid. yeah I would more than likely be moving back in if I did that, and sorry mom and dad, I don't want to be 31 almost 32 living at home. It was more geared towards looking into alternatives other than ls, such as the teaching degree or something else that is more along the lines with the amount of administrative experience I have, maybe something managerial. I would in no way advocate someone going to law school just to get away from your parents. I love mine I do. I am very fortunate to have a very loving and supporting family, and being home does have some perks, (hell if I go to Germany in Sept, my dad is pretty much paying my way) but I don' want to be there forever.

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Duralex
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Re: So conflicted

Postby Duralex » Fri May 07, 2010 11:08 am

If you're really interested in the law, consider doing a paralegal certification and getting a job at a law office of some kind. Do that for a year (or two), then apply to WVU again in the following year's cycle.

Also, I have no idea if this is at all feasible but next door in Virginia it is still possible to be admitted by "reading law." So you might be able to get a paralegal cert, work in Virginia for a while, and then do that under the sponsorship of an attorney/judge, etc. I have no idea how often this is done and how the rest of the legal community would treat you, however.

http://www.vbbe.state.va.us/reader/reader.html
Last edited by Duralex on Fri May 07, 2010 11:22 am, edited 2 times in total.

mugrad06
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Re: So conflicted

Postby mugrad06 » Fri May 07, 2010 11:16 am

actually I am sort of in a paralegal position right now. the other one I work with said it was a waste of money to get a paralegal cert (actually I think hers was an associates degree) She learned more in the 4 yrs she has been here than her classes taught her. The only benefit was she learned the language/terminology.

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Duralex
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Re: So conflicted

Postby Duralex » Fri May 07, 2010 11:19 am

mugrad06 wrote:actually I am sort of in a paralegal position right now. the other one I work with said it was a waste of money to get a paralegal cert (actually I think hers was an associates degree) She learned more in the 4 yrs she has been here than her classes taught her. The only benefit was she learned the language/terminology.


Having the credential might help with admission. It's a demonstration of your dedication and commitment, if nothing else. Ad-comms don't get to know the "real you," they're dealing with narrow profiles and making decisions based on what they find there.

/shrug

mugrad06
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Re: So conflicted

Postby mugrad06 » Fri May 07, 2010 11:26 am

If having a Master Degree, which is suppose to be harder than undergrad, doesn't do anything for admissions, how is getting a certificate in paralegal going to be more benefical? It comes down to numbers LSAC GPA and LSAT. Getting a cert wouldn't change my gpa numbers. I honestly don't see how that would benefit me in the admissions process. People with Ph.Ds were getting rejected.

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Duralex
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Re: So conflicted

Postby Duralex » Fri May 07, 2010 1:42 pm

The idea is that you would look less like just another frustrated student looking for a "safe" career and more like an adult who has made a considered decision to enter the legal world and is already doing so by hook or crook. You have to give the adcom a reason to look past your GPA and LSAT if they aren't getting you where you want to be. You can then reapply, saying "here are the steps I've taken to demonstrate my ability and dedication." I know it sounds silly if you already hold a masters and it isn't helping, but I'd consider giving it a shot. It's fairly inexpensive. You also might be able to make more at your current position (or another like it) or be entrusted with more complicated or independent work, which will both improve your performance down the road and enhance your application.

Anyway, I hope it works out for you whatever you decide.

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shepdawg
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Re: So conflicted

Postby shepdawg » Fri May 07, 2010 2:30 pm

Do not waste your life teaching. I have learned from my 7 years as a teacher that the old adage "Those who can't, teach" is very true. After working for a M.Ed and rising to the top of my profession, I am still not treated like a professional. The hours are great and the work is not challenging, but your salary is not limited by how hard you work or how smart you are, but instead by how many years you have taught. I don't mind taking the risk of going to a T4 school to switch to the career that I have always wanted.

mugrad06
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Re: So conflicted

Postby mugrad06 » Fri May 07, 2010 2:56 pm

shepdawg wrote:Do not waste your life teaching. I have learned from my 7 years as a teacher that the old adage "Those who can't, teach" is very true. After working for a M.Ed and rising to the top of my profession, I am still not treated like a professional. The hours are great and the work is not challenging, but your salary is not limited by how hard you work or how smart you are, but instead by how many years you have taught. I don't mind taking the risk of going to a T4 school to switch to the career that I have always wanted.



Thats what I am trying to figure out if I should go for a teaching degree or try something else, like HR Management. I never thought of a back up plan if I ended up not going to law school. I swear I am having a quarter life crisis. I want to do something with my life that will provide with at least a little bit of stability. Im not asking to be paid thousands upon thousands of dollars, but I want to make more than my 17,000 a/yr now.




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