The web search that is giving me serious pause...

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blerg
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby blerg » Thu May 06, 2010 9:58 am

The T3 that has my deposit has a HUGE number of grads working for the state, according to this. Fine with me.

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legalease9
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby legalease9 » Thu May 06, 2010 10:04 am

Matthies wrote:
disco_barred wrote:
Matthies wrote:Matthies advice on what should be your focus in LS. 1L all about greades, 2L all aout creating a network of working lawyers and judges OUTSIDE of school, 3L taping that network for a job at graduation. If OCI works out in between then great, if not, your not starting on soemthing (networking that takes time to pay off) when you have 30 days till laons being due and are desprate and come off that way to the lawyers you meet. Finding a job is a fulltime job and should start right after 1L.


Do you think Ken could just plaster that text in a banner at the top of every page? Make you re-type it in order to qualify to post - a captcha that checks for reasoning skills instead of humanity?


But that would single handedly kill places like JDU and ABL whose sole existence is dedicated to the premise that an individual law graduate does not have a job because (choose all that apply):

1 If you went outside the top 25 schools the reputation of your school

2. if you went to a top 25 school than its the all the TTT schools flooding the market with lawyers (Note this MUST also be paired with comments that no TTT graduate ever gets a legal job, failure to argue both at the same time might induce some kind of personal responsibility in the poster or show actual logical thinking abilities, both a no-no when your inability to find a job is of course completely someone else fault)

3. the ABA

4. Illegal aliens

5. OCS at your school sucking

What the hell would all these unemployed lawyers do with all their free time if they did not have someone else to blame for them not getting a job when they did all the hard work that a legal job search requires by filling out their bids for OCI and getting them submitted before the deadline and massmailing unsolicted resumes to firms chosen at random of off matrina-dale?


:lol: I hope no one actually argues this!

270910
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby 270910 » Thu May 06, 2010 10:08 am

legalized: Neither Law school nor the bar in any meaningful way prepare you to practice law. The education is very abstract, and will prepare you for thinking, in an abstract way, about legal disputes for the rest of your career. But the education is not, and never has, been sufficient to prepare a recent grad for motion practice, client relations, legal tactics, etc. For that reason it's extraordinarily risky. Legal malpractice means that if you make a mistake as a fresh grad trying to hang your own shingle that a competent attorney would not have made, you're mega-fucked. Missed a motion deadline? Didn't know about your state's different version of the rule against perpetuities? Game over!

Working towards a solo practice is one thing, and it doesn't even need to take a long time. Working under a local attorney for a year or 2 then starting out on your own may still be risky, but at least you're not going to be 'learning by doing' AKA helping your clients by handing out malpractice causes of action with every business card.

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pinkzeppelin
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby pinkzeppelin » Thu May 06, 2010 10:23 am

mytwocents wrote:I'm pretty sure it's the same guy. I'm also pretty sure that he wrote a hell of a post (similar to Arrow's famous thread) about all the ins and outs of networking in law school. It's golden, and absolutely bookmark-able.

ETA: Matthies, have you ever posted anything like that thread on TLS? LSD is pretty sparsely populated (compared to TLS, at least), you'd be helping even more people by posting it here.


Here's a link. http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prel ... msg5153383

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Matthies
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby Matthies » Thu May 06, 2010 10:54 am

legalease9 wrote:
Matthies wrote:
disco_barred wrote:
Matthies wrote:Matthies advice on what should be your focus in LS. 1L all about greades, 2L all aout creating a network of working lawyers and judges OUTSIDE of school, 3L taping that network for a job at graduation. If OCI works out in between then great, if not, your not starting on soemthing (networking that takes time to pay off) when you have 30 days till laons being due and are desprate and come off that way to the lawyers you meet. Finding a job is a fulltime job and should start right after 1L.


Do you think Ken could just plaster that text in a banner at the top of every page? Make you re-type it in order to qualify to post - a captcha that checks for reasoning skills instead of humanity?


But that would single handedly kill places like JDU and ABL whose sole existence is dedicated to the premise that an individual law graduate does not have a job because (choose all that apply):

1 If you went outside the top 25 schools the reputation of your school

2. if you went to a top 25 school than its the all the TTT schools flooding the market with lawyers (Note this MUST also be paired with comments that no TTT graduate ever gets a legal job, failure to argue both at the same time might induce some kind of personal responsibility in the poster or show actual logical thinking abilities, both a no-no when your inability to find a job is of course completely someone else fault)

3. the ABA

4. Illegal aliens

5. OCS at your school sucking

What the hell would all these unemployed lawyers do with all their free time if they did not have someone else to blame for them not getting a job when they did all the hard work that a legal job search requires by filling out their bids for OCI and getting them submitted before the deadline and massmailing unsolicted resumes to firms chosen at random of off matrina-dale?


:lol: I hope no one actually argues this!


I bet new law grads in Arizona will jump all over this now

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Matthies
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby Matthies » Thu May 06, 2010 10:54 am

pinkzeppelin wrote:
mytwocents wrote:I'm pretty sure it's the same guy. I'm also pretty sure that he wrote a hell of a post (similar to Arrow's famous thread) about all the ins and outs of networking in law school. It's golden, and absolutely bookmark-able.

ETA: Matthies, have you ever posted anything like that thread on TLS? LSD is pretty sparsely populated (compared to TLS, at least), you'd be helping even more people by posting it here.


Here's a link. http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prel ... msg5153383


Damn i could not even find that. Need to re-read and see if I have any changes since 2008

JOThompson
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby JOThompson » Thu May 06, 2010 11:00 am

I'm terrified. The first several people weren't faring so well, despite LR/honors. About half the graduates were working well outside the midwest region though, which is somewhat reassuring.

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historyholly
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby historyholly » Thu May 06, 2010 7:03 pm

Sweetsauce. I did a search and I did it with and without years. Good things. I like it

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echoi
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby echoi » Fri May 07, 2010 12:05 am

linkedin is a highly self-selecting population...i wouldn't put much stock into this.

Mr. Pablo
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby Mr. Pablo » Fri May 07, 2010 12:33 am

I guess I'm still sort of dumbfounded that people could expect to obtain a job without actively seeking one out. The OCI thing is funny to me; an employer coming to me? That is a pretty novel concept to me. Does anyone think it's possible that the unemployment horror stories of some kids at highly ranked schools may stem from the fact that they don't go out and, you know, actually apply for jobs?

edit: not that I think this thread is about highly ranked schools, but I think the principle may still hold.

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phoenix323
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby phoenix323 » Fri May 07, 2010 1:00 am

To OP: Thanks for this. It rocks.

I typed in my school and saw a few people who were "Post-Bar Law Clerks" for firms.

What does this mean?

LateNight
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby LateNight » Fri May 07, 2010 1:04 am

Just did my target T20 school. Most do not work in Law and are instead in another field entirely. Interesting...

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Matthies
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby Matthies » Fri May 07, 2010 9:26 am

phoenix323 wrote:To OP: Thanks for this. It rocks.

I typed in my school and saw a few people who were "Post-Bar Law Clerks" for firms.

What does this mean?


Might mean they are working for a frim awaiting bar results before they can be lic.

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phoenix323
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby phoenix323 » Fri May 07, 2010 5:51 pm

Matthies wrote:
phoenix323 wrote:To OP: Thanks for this. It rocks.

I typed in my school and saw a few people who were "Post-Bar Law Clerks" for firms.

What does this mean?


Might mean they are working for a frim awaiting bar results before they can be lic.


That makes sense.

Thanks!

ScaredWorkedBored
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby ScaredWorkedBored » Fri May 07, 2010 10:20 pm

legalized wrote:...someone explain to me what exactly is wrong with a hanging a shingle straight out of law school?


What the bar allows you to do and what the bar will not sanction you for trying to do are two entirely different things. All non-specialist lawyers being held to the same competency rules cuts both ways...

There are rare exceptions usually grounded in a ton of specialized practical classes & internships that would let a new lawyer perform as competently as the average bum, usually in criminal defense (because most representation here is horrendous). The potential to fuck up the organizational aspects of it would still be immense. Oh, and while you probably *won't* be bad enough to actually get your client reversed because of ineffective criminal counsel, the bar can and will still ring you up.

Business transactions and stuff like that - it's highly unlikely you have taken courses that specifically prepare you for the practical aspects here. Only a few schools have ones worth mentioning. It's true there's nothing to stop you from going with the MPRE Law in a Flash card where you get a $1 billion complex LBO as your first client, and you could theoretically even learn to be competent in doing that. In the real world, you don't know how to actually do a real estate closing, let alone draft the necessary documents.

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Matthies
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby Matthies » Sat May 08, 2010 12:40 pm

You know there are these mythical people, they are called "mentors" and sometimes they have lots of experience in the legal world and are willing to help new lawyers start their own firms right out of law school. Supposedly they send you work, advise you on how to do it, even some say, go to court with you. I've heard rumor of entire organizations dedicated to coupling mentors with new lawyers for this purpose. Of course you have to be a decent human being and not a douchbag to have theses ethereal mentors want to help you so most law students and new lawyers never actually meet one. I glimpsed one once, but not sure if it was a mirage or not.

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby Mr. Matlock » Sat May 08, 2010 12:48 pm

Matthies wrote:You know there are these mythical people, they are called "mentors" and sometimes they have lots of experience in the legal world and are willing to help new lawyers start their own firms right out of law school. Supposedly they send you work, advise you on how to do it, even some say, go to court with you. I've heard rumor of entire organizations dedicated to coupling mentors with new lawyers for this purpose. Of course you have to be a decent human being and not a douchbag to have theses ethereal mentors want to help you so most law students and new lawyers never actually meet one. I glimpsed one once, but not sure if it was a mirage or not.

Image

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Grizz
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby Grizz » Sat May 08, 2010 12:58 pm

legalized wrote:...someone explain to me what exactly is wrong with a hanging a shingle straight out of law school?


Affordable? Have fun paying for office space, ad space, copier, bizhub, legal assistant, Westlaw, etc. with no startup capital. Moar loans? Sounds great! Then, with no established clients, high overhead, and legalzoom.com making people realize they could do simple "bread and butter" legal stuff themselves, you have a good shot at financial ruin. If you somehow do make it into court, you have a good shot at a malpractice lawsuit. Solo practice right out of law school sounds like a good way to get screwed.

With a few years experience, maybe a partner or two, and some clients, then we'd be talking.

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Matthies
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby Matthies » Sat May 08, 2010 12:59 pm

Mr. Matlock wrote:
Matthies wrote:You know there are these mythical people, they are called "mentors" and sometimes they have lots of experience in the legal world and are willing to help new lawyers start their own firms right out of law school. Supposedly they send you work, advise you on how to do it, even some say, go to court with you. I've heard rumor of entire organizations dedicated to coupling mentors with new lawyers for this purpose. Of course you have to be a decent human being and not a douchbag to have theses ethereal mentors want to help you so most law students and new lawyers never actually meet one. I glimpsed one once, but not sure if it was a mirage or not.

Image


Pretty funny but yesterday at "new lawyer boot camp aka how not to get disbarred" they said the number one reason, 3x1 over any of single grievance complaint they get about new lawyers is 'bad personality/personal skills" then showed a us a demand letter written by, wait for it, a newly minted T14 lawyer who opened the letter to opposing counsel with "Dear Douchbag." He's on a 1 year suspension now.

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SwollenMonkey
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby SwollenMonkey » Sat May 08, 2010 1:05 pm

I'm grateful I found a few from a T3 and T4 school that have granted me acceptances. This is a great idea.

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby Mr. Matlock » Sat May 08, 2010 1:09 pm

Matthies wrote:Pretty funny but yesterday at "new lawyer boot camp aka how not to get disbarred" they said the number one reason, 3x1 over any of single grievance complaint they get about new lawyers is 'bad personality/personal skills" then showed a us a demand letter written by, wait for it, a newly minted T14 lawyer who opened the letter to opposing counsel with "Dear Douchbag." He's on a 1 year suspension now.

:lol:
I'm laughing to keep from crying at the fact you actually need a class to be told not to do this!!!

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Matthies
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby Matthies » Sat May 08, 2010 1:40 pm

Mr. Matlock wrote:
Matthies wrote:Pretty funny but yesterday at "new lawyer boot camp aka how not to get disbarred" they said the number one reason, 3x1 over any of single grievance complaint they get about new lawyers is 'bad personality/personal skills" then showed a us a demand letter written by, wait for it, a newly minted T14 lawyer who opened the letter to opposing counsel with "Dear Douchbag." He's on a 1 year suspension now.

:lol:
I'm laughing to keep from crying at the fact you actually need a class to be told not to do this!!!


Dude PEOPLE WHERE TAKING NOTES :roll:

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uwb09
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby uwb09 » Sat May 08, 2010 1:59 pm

Matthies wrote:
Mr. Matlock wrote:
Matthies wrote:Pretty funny but yesterday at "new lawyer boot camp aka how not to get disbarred" they said the number one reason, 3x1 over any of single grievance complaint they get about new lawyers is 'bad personality/personal skills" then showed a us a demand letter written by, wait for it, a newly minted T14 lawyer who opened the letter to opposing counsel with "Dear Douchbag." He's on a 1 year suspension now.

:lol:
I'm laughing to keep from crying at the fact you actually need a class to be told not to do this!!!


Dude PEOPLE WHERE TAKING NOTES :roll:

it's kinda sad that "being part of an undergrad campus/other grad school community" had to be pretty high on my priority list, but man, almost every other student I knew in undergrad who wanted to go to law school was just a snobby stuck up douchebag, if i had to be in an entirely separate building/campus with 85% people like that, i'd want to shoot myself

there are obviously exceptions, there seem to be a lot of cool/chill/social/down to earth people on this site, but i'm not looking forward to the amount of snobby/self-entitled a-holes awaiting me next year

dakatz
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby dakatz » Sat May 08, 2010 2:03 pm

uwb09 wrote:
Matthies wrote:
Mr. Matlock wrote:
Matthies wrote:Pretty funny but yesterday at "new lawyer boot camp aka how not to get disbarred" they said the number one reason, 3x1 over any of single grievance complaint they get about new lawyers is 'bad personality/personal skills" then showed a us a demand letter written by, wait for it, a newly minted T14 lawyer who opened the letter to opposing counsel with "Dear Douchbag." He's on a 1 year suspension now.

:lol:
I'm laughing to keep from crying at the fact you actually need a class to be told not to do this!!!


Dude PEOPLE WHERE TAKING NOTES :roll:

it's kinda sad that "being part of an undergrad campus/other grad school community" had to be pretty high on my priority list, but man, almost every other student I knew in undergrad who wanted to go to law school was just a snobby stuck up douchebag, if i had to be in an entirely separate building/campus with 85% people like that, i'd want to shoot myself

there are obviously exceptions, there seem to be a lot of cool/chill/social/down to earth people on this site, but i'm not looking forward to the amount of snobby/self-entitled a-holes awaiting me next year


Amen. I stopped by Columbia Law yesterday since I know some people in the area, and the snobbery and pretension was just through the roof. I've always been a pretty humble and chill person, and could never imagine myself in such an environment. I really hope not all schools are like this, though I'm afraid they might be.

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Unemployed
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby Unemployed » Sat May 08, 2010 2:08 pm

dakatz wrote:Amen. I stopped by Columbia Law yesterday since I know some people in the area, and the snobbery and pretension was just through the roof. I've always been a pretty humble and chill person, and could never imagine myself in such an environment. I really hope not all schools are like this, though I'm afraid they might be.


:lol: :lol:

A humble and chill person usually doesn't say things like this with a straight face!




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