The web search that is giving me serious pause...

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arundodonax
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The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby arundodonax » Wed May 05, 2010 7:40 pm

So went to Google and typed in the seach box:

"T2 where I've got my deposit" law school "2006 - 2009" site:linkedin.com

:shock:

I shouldn't be surprised, but this was a greater dose of reality than all the horror stories. Sure, those on linkedin may be looking for work/leads, and therefore may be self-selecting, but what I found was a menagerie of 2009 grads that:

1. Hung their own shingle
2. Started their own "consulting firm"
3. Continue to clerk for the law firm they worked for prior to graduation
4. Unemployed
5. Patent attorney

The majority being numbers 1 and 3. No smalllaw attorneys. No anylaw attorneys. (IP being a special case) Yes, some of these have not been updated since before graduation, and those that have real jobs may not be posting on linkedin.

So I ask you: representative or anomaly? Try it for your school and see if you are as depressed as I am.
Last edited by arundodonax on Wed May 05, 2010 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Rand M.
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby Rand M. » Wed May 05, 2010 7:45 pm

Wow, I really never knew you could do that. Thanks for that.

My first four were Skadden, Jenner, Irell, and Latham. I don't know what to make of the representativeness of the sample

Kobe_Teeth
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby Kobe_Teeth » Wed May 05, 2010 7:58 pm

I'm going T2 and I just did this as well. Good idea! Actually, mine wasn't as impressive as some but the vast majority were lawyers of some sort somewhere.

Awesome. Thank you.

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dvd
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby dvd » Wed May 05, 2010 8:05 pm

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Last edited by dvd on Thu Jul 01, 2010 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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sixburgher
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby sixburgher » Wed May 05, 2010 8:05 pm

This is brilliant. Thanks for the idea, even if some of the results are disheartening.
Last edited by sixburgher on Wed May 05, 2010 8:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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dvd
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby dvd » Wed May 05, 2010 8:06 pm

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Last edited by dvd on Thu Jul 01, 2010 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Matthies
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby Matthies » Wed May 05, 2010 8:06 pm

arundodonax wrote:So went to Google and typed in the seach box:

"T2 where I've got my deposit" law school "2006 - 2009" site:linkedin.com

:shock:

I shouldn't be surprised, but this was a greater dose of reality than all the horror stories. Sure, those on linkedin may be looking for work/leads, and therefore may be self-selecting, but what I found was a menagerie of 2009 grads that:

1. Hung their own shingle
2. Started their own "consulting firm"
3. Continue to clerk for the law firm they worked for prior to graduation
4. Unemployed
5. Patent attorney

The majority being numbers 1 and 3. No smalllaw attorneys. No anylaw attorneys. (IP being a special case) Yes, some of these have not been updated since before graduation, and those that have real jobs may not be posting on linkedin.

So I ask you: representative or anomaly? Try it for your school and see if you are as depressed as I am.


Its representative of the fact that most law students if they don't have something handed to them through the school will likely have no clue and or backup plan for finding a legal job if the former does not come through. Seriously, from my class of 2009 there are two kinds of graduates I know: those that found jobs on their own and those that are unemployed and still looking for jobs on the schools website (you would think after a year of that not working they would have tried other methods, you would be wrong though). You got hunters and you got gathers, most law students tend to be gathers, and will, if not provided for, starve when left to their own devices or grasp at low hanging fruit before they will ever evolve into hunters. In the old economy the name of your law school was enough to employ a large number of gathers, not anymore.

Law school attacks people like this, think about it, the type of people who tend to flock to LS are those that could not think of anything to do with their "X" degree. I.e. the degree determined their fate, or so they thought, so a JD would then determine their fate. When that does not happen, they become lost. The guy who went to LS w/o thinking is fate is predetermined is not going to give up so easily when faced with solving his own problem (i.e. finding a job on his own), however they are the minority not the majority (in LS and in life actually).

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Unemployed
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby Unemployed » Wed May 05, 2010 8:09 pm

Wow. One of the first people who show up was my college roommate. Seriously.

arundodonax
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby arundodonax » Wed May 05, 2010 8:11 pm

Quasi-heartening addenda: I did this again for one year prior and found much better results - also my school tends to have a lot of PI hopefuls and perhaps some holdouts. I chalk the 09 numbers up to ITE and lazy students who don't update their linkedin.

Matthies: A peach of an analysis. Good thing I'm going for the right reasons. ::crossing fingers::
Last edited by arundodonax on Wed May 05, 2010 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

270910
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby 270910 » Wed May 05, 2010 8:14 pm

Keep in mind that somebody who is unemployed is exponentially less likely to have a linkedin profile. On the flip side, somebody who was employed prior to LS is both more likely to have a profile and to have found work after LS.

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dvd
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby dvd » Wed May 05, 2010 8:16 pm

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Last edited by dvd on Thu Jul 01, 2010 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

270910
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby 270910 » Wed May 05, 2010 8:38 pm

dvd wrote:
disco_barred wrote:Keep in mind that somebody who is unemployed is exponentially less likely to have a linkedin profile. On the flip side, somebody who was employed prior to LS is both more likely to have a profile and to have found work after LS.


Woah, I think most people would have had some form of work before law school.


I don't know a single person at my LS who has a linkedin profile.

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Matthies
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby Matthies » Wed May 05, 2010 9:17 pm

disco_barred wrote:
dvd wrote:
disco_barred wrote:Keep in mind that somebody who is unemployed is exponentially less likely to have a linkedin profile. On the flip side, somebody who was employed prior to LS is both more likely to have a profile and to have found work after LS.


Woah, I think most people would have had some form of work before law school.


I don't know a single person at my LS who has a linkedin profile.


there was the chick at my school who had, by 2L (and note she was PTer like me so had 2 years left) listed her occupation as attorny.

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Matthies
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby Matthies » Wed May 05, 2010 9:31 pm

arundodonax wrote:Matthies: A peach of an analysis. Good thing I'm going for the right reasons. ::crossing fingers::


Just to clarify, what i wrote has nothing to do with the right reasons, ones right reason could be making as much money as possible and still be as right as another's. The key is having the right attitude, i.e. that fate and/or your schools is not the only way or even the most likely way of landing a job. People who go in thinking that and it does not come true find out at the end of 3L or worse after graduation that then was a bad time to consider or start on plan B for finding a job. Say you graduate on May 15th, with no job. bar exam is end of July, results come out in October (will vary from state to state on results). that's five months from graduation, in one month loans start coming due, that a bad time for it to finally dawn on you that pinning all your hopes on OCI was not a smart idea. Cause at that point you have to do SOMETHING because most kids are out of money and have, as I said, not realized until very, very late in the game they should have had a plan B well in place (and by plan B I mean plan B for finding a legal job if the school does not find one for you). When you at that point, jobless six months out with no network, no connections and replying to the same 5-6 job postings a week as everyone else in the same position in your class your much more likely to have or be willing to take a crap job because that's all you can get at this point. Right reasons don't matter, right attitude does matter, and makes the difference between those employed and those not for a large number of law graduates.

Matthies advice on what should be your focus in LS. 1L all about greades, 2L all aout creating a network of working lawyers and judges OUTSIDE of school, 3L taping that network for a job at graduation. If OCI works out in between then great, if not, your not starting on soemthing (networking that takes time to pay off) when you have 30 days till laons being due and are desprate and come off that way to the lawyers you meet. Finding a job is a fulltime job and should start right after 1L.

270910
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby 270910 » Wed May 05, 2010 9:36 pm

Matthies wrote:Matthies advice on what should be your focus in LS. 1L all about greades, 2L all aout creating a network of working lawyers and judges OUTSIDE of school, 3L taping that network for a job at graduation. If OCI works out in between then great, if not, your not starting on soemthing (networking that takes time to pay off) when you have 30 days till laons being due and are desprate and come off that way to the lawyers you meet. Finding a job is a fulltime job and should start right after 1L.


Do you think Ken could just plaster that text in a banner at the top of every page? Make you re-type it in order to qualify to post - a captcha that checks for reasoning skills instead of humanity?

jkay
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby jkay » Wed May 05, 2010 9:49 pm

Sweet, from those results, everyone who actually got their JD at my future law school (TTT/only law school in the state) and is still in the same state is employed.

I have no intention of ever leaving this state so that search just made my week. Thanks!

arundodonax
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby arundodonax » Wed May 05, 2010 10:07 pm

arundodonax wrote: Good thing I'm going for the right reasons.


I suppose that came off as cheeky, and not tongue-in-cheek, as I had intended it.

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Matthies
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby Matthies » Wed May 05, 2010 11:39 pm

disco_barred wrote:
Matthies wrote:Matthies advice on what should be your focus in LS. 1L all about greades, 2L all aout creating a network of working lawyers and judges OUTSIDE of school, 3L taping that network for a job at graduation. If OCI works out in between then great, if not, your not starting on soemthing (networking that takes time to pay off) when you have 30 days till laons being due and are desprate and come off that way to the lawyers you meet. Finding a job is a fulltime job and should start right after 1L.


Do you think Ken could just plaster that text in a banner at the top of every page? Make you re-type it in order to qualify to post - a captcha that checks for reasoning skills instead of humanity?


But that would single handedly kill places like JDU and ABL whose sole existence is dedicated to the premise that an individual law graduate does not have a job because (choose all that apply):

1 If you went outside the top 25 schools the reputation of your school

2. if you went to a top 25 school than its the all the TTT schools flooding the market with lawyers (Note this MUST also be paired with comments that no TTT graduate ever gets a legal job, failure to argue both at the same time might induce some kind of personal responsibility in the poster or show actual logical thinking abilities, both a no-no when your inability to find a job is of course completely someone else fault)

3. the ABA

4. Illegal aliens

5. OCS at your school sucking

What the hell would all these unemployed lawyers do with all their free time if they did not have someone else to blame for them not getting a job when they did all the hard work that a legal job search requires by filling out their bids for OCI and getting them submitted before the deadline and massmailing unsolicted resumes to firms chosen at random of off matrina-dale?

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Grond
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby Grond » Thu May 06, 2010 12:15 am

Matthies wrote:
arundodonax wrote:Matthies: A peach of an analysis. Good thing I'm going for the right reasons. ::crossing fingers::


Just to clarify, what i wrote has nothing to do with the right reasons, ones right reason could be making as much money as possible and still be as right as another's. The key is having the right attitude, i.e. that fate and/or your schools is not the only way or even the most likely way of landing a job. People who go in thinking that and it does not come true find out at the end of 3L or worse after graduation that then was a bad time to consider or start on plan B for finding a job. Say you graduate on May 15th, with no job. bar exam is end of July, results come out in October (will vary from state to state on results). that's five months from graduation, in one month loans start coming due, that a bad time for it to finally dawn on you that pinning all your hopes on OCI was not a smart idea. Cause at that point you have to do SOMETHING because most kids are out of money and have, as I said, not realized until very, very late in the game they should have had a plan B well in place (and by plan B I mean plan B for finding a legal job if the school does not find one for you). When you at that point, jobless six months out with no network, no connections and replying to the same 5-6 job postings a week as everyone else in the same position in your class your much more likely to have or be willing to take a crap job because that's all you can get at this point. Right reasons don't matter, right attitude does matter, and makes the difference between those employed and those not for a large number of law graduates.

Matthies advice on what should be your focus in LS. 1L all about greades, 2L all aout creating a network of working lawyers and judges OUTSIDE of school, 3L taping that network for a job at graduation. If OCI works out in between then great, if not, your not starting on soemthing (networking that takes time to pay off) when you have 30 days till laons being due and are desprate and come off that way to the lawyers you meet. Finding a job is a fulltime job and should start right after 1L.


There used to be a guy that would post stuff like this on lawschooldiscussion all the time.

270910
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby 270910 » Thu May 06, 2010 12:17 am

Grond wrote:There used to be a guy that would post stuff like this on lawschooldiscussion all the time.


You mean the LSD poster matthies?

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jayn3
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby jayn3 » Thu May 06, 2010 12:21 am

sixburgher wrote:This is brilliant.


+1

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Grond
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby Grond » Thu May 06, 2010 12:32 am

disco_barred wrote:
Grond wrote:There used to be a guy that would post stuff like this on lawschooldiscussion all the time.


You mean the LSD poster matthies?

:shock:

Creepy.

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mytwocents
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby mytwocents » Thu May 06, 2010 12:38 am

Grond wrote:
Matthies wrote:
arundodonax wrote:Matthies: A peach of an analysis. Good thing I'm going for the right reasons. ::crossing fingers::


Just to clarify, what i wrote has nothing to do with the right reasons, ones right reason could be making as much money as possible and still be as right as another's. The key is having the right attitude, i.e. that fate and/or your schools is not the only way or even the most likely way of landing a job. People who go in thinking that and it does not come true find out at the end of 3L or worse after graduation that then was a bad time to consider or start on plan B for finding a job. Say you graduate on May 15th, with no job. bar exam is end of July, results come out in October (will vary from state to state on results). that's five months from graduation, in one month loans start coming due, that a bad time for it to finally dawn on you that pinning all your hopes on OCI was not a smart idea. Cause at that point you have to do SOMETHING because most kids are out of money and have, as I said, not realized until very, very late in the game they should have had a plan B well in place (and by plan B I mean plan B for finding a legal job if the school does not find one for you). When you at that point, jobless six months out with no network, no connections and replying to the same 5-6 job postings a week as everyone else in the same position in your class your much more likely to have or be willing to take a crap job because that's all you can get at this point. Right reasons don't matter, right attitude does matter, and makes the difference between those employed and those not for a large number of law graduates.

Matthies advice on what should be your focus in LS. 1L all about greades, 2L all aout creating a network of working lawyers and judges OUTSIDE of school, 3L taping that network for a job at graduation. If OCI works out in between then great, if not, your not starting on soemthing (networking that takes time to pay off) when you have 30 days till laons being due and are desprate and come off that way to the lawyers you meet. Finding a job is a fulltime job and should start right after 1L.


There used to be a guy that would post stuff like this on lawschooldiscussion all the time.


I'm pretty sure it's the same guy. I'm also pretty sure that he wrote a hell of a post (similar to Arrow's famous thread) about all the ins and outs of networking in law school. It's golden, and absolutely bookmark-able.

ETA: Matthies, have you ever posted anything like that thread on TLS? LSD is pretty sparsely populated (compared to TLS, at least), you'd be helping even more people by posting it here.

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Thirteen
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby Thirteen » Thu May 06, 2010 12:58 am

sixburgher wrote:This is brilliant. Thanks for the idea, even if some of the results are disheartening.


Thanks OP.

legalized
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Re: The web search that is giving me serious pause...

Postby legalized » Thu May 06, 2010 9:46 am

...someone explain to me what exactly is wrong with a hanging a shingle straight out of law school?

You are allowed to do that the second you pass the bar...and for those who know exactly what kind of law they want to practice and already know they don't want to be kissing ass up someone else's corporate ladder but would rather just have their own ladder...what is wrong with that?

That is what I don't get with these unemployed younger lawyers that aren't specialized into any niche yet. Why are they bawling? Why aren't they being entrepreneurs?

Yes you might need work experience to do IP and some other less bread and butter types of legal practice but maybe that's the problem, people need to stop aiming for these esoteric trendy areas of law and get back to what's always in business year after year.

People should be prepared for any eventuality and know that when you have a PROFESSION you should never be out of a job for longer than a few months. Even if you graduate from a top 10 law school, I would think these schools would inform people that your options UPON graduation and bar passage INCLUDES going solo! Solosez is out there to help people with that.

I know my thinking is not strange because I see older more experienced attorneys posting that type of comment after all these articles bellyaching the state of affairs "what happened to hanging a shingle."

I read of at least one Harvard grad who hung a shingle straight out of law school. Yes it's long hours and you might have to meet up with clients at the courthouse if you have only a home office but it's totally doable and totally affordable, especially if you set up shop in the same city as your law school and can get into the law library/internet legal necessities from there.

Matter of fact many things are cheaper to purchase as students from the ABA etc. so if people really think ahead to open this option for themselves, they use their student status to get certain memberships and products that are more expensive as simply a member of the bar.

Yeah, I am researching ALL my options, because I don't intend to work for people the rest of my life, I think we see how cold life can be when we always depend on someone else running their show for our bread and butter. When we don't figure into their priorities we get left hanging. Law is a trade, like carpenter, like mechanic...if people aren't hiring you can set up shop on your own.




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