Another LSAC victim. Question.

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cigrainger
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby cigrainger » Wed May 05, 2010 1:35 pm

disco_barred wrote:
cigrainger wrote:So, depending on my LSAT, but assuming I don't score MUCH lower than my current averages (and I have 3 weeks of pure LSAT studying after my last exam), this is my list:

Harvard
Columbia
NYU
Chicago
Berkeley
Penn
Mich
Northwestern
Georgetown
UCLA

Like I said before, I'm bounded in by the fact that my SO has to be able to find a job. I worry about Mich in this regard, but she's planning on getting an MPP, so she may just apply to go to school there. If you can convince me that she could get a paid job doing something policy (particularly social policy) related in Palo Alto, New Haven, Charlottesville, Durham, and/or Ithaca.


Ballsy. I like it. But you seem smart, so you probably realize that even if you don't get in to those schools, it's risky to go to lower ranked schools.

I'd consider adding a school or two like Illinois/BU/BC/USC/Fordham. Your situation might get you big money from some lesser ranked schools who want your LSAT and see you as a strong applicant but also don't need to maintain their gpa medians at all costs.


Haha, I suppose it is. Thank you. I'd just rather work doing something else (maybe apply to TFA or something like the Sierra Club's ECA program) and reapply later. But that's just what it is -- for my career objectives and my risk-aversion, I'd rather go T15 (I'd be pretty happy at UCLA) or bust. I'll have a think about those. Thanks!

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NayBoer
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby NayBoer » Wed May 05, 2010 1:40 pm

I'd probably apply to the full T14 if you can afford it. If you luck out and get into Y or S, your girlfriend finding a job is hardly a barrier to going.

Don't be shocked if your highest admit is GULC. Or none of those. If nobody gives you leniency, then WashU is your highest admit without WE.

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cigrainger
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby cigrainger » Wed May 05, 2010 1:42 pm

NayBoer wrote:I'd probably apply to the full T14 if you can afford it. If you luck out and get into Y or S, your girlfriend finding a job is hardly a barrier to going.

Don't be shocked if your highest admit is GULC. Or none of those. If nobody gives you leniency, then WashU is your highest admit without WE.


Perhaps you're right. We can figure something out if I get into Y or S! (Quit putting these crazy ideas in my head!) I won't be surprised if that's the case, but like I said: if I get locked out, I'll just look for employment elsewhere and reapply with WE later. TFA is something I want to do anyway and would certainly help.

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NayBoer
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby NayBoer » Wed May 05, 2010 1:51 pm

Yeah, sorry to tantalize you. Here's some nice pessimistic reality: On your list of 10 schools, be prepared to get 8 or 9 rejections and a waitlist or two.

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cigrainger
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby cigrainger » Wed May 05, 2010 1:53 pm

NayBoer wrote:Yeah, sorry to tantalize you. Here's some nice pessimistic reality: On your list of 10 schools, be prepared to get 8 or 9 rejections and a waitlist or two.


:cry: Now make a prediction for if I hadn't been told dual enrollment was a great idea and was just applying with a First Class Honours degree, LSAT in the 170's, and pretty solid softs. :?

mah2012
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby mah2012 » Wed May 05, 2010 1:58 pm

cigrainger wrote:
NayBoer wrote:I'd probably apply to the full T14 if you can afford it. If you luck out and get into Y or S, your girlfriend finding a job is hardly a barrier to going.

Don't be shocked if your highest admit is GULC. Or none of those. If nobody gives you leniency, then WashU is your highest admit without WE.


Perhaps you're right. We can figure something out if I get into Y or S! (Quit putting these crazy ideas in my head!) I won't be surprised if that's the case, but like I said: if I get locked out, I'll just look for employment elsewhere and reapply with WE later. TFA is something I want to do anyway and would certainly help.


I'm sorry, but that's not particularly true. TFA is sweet and all, but it's not going to suddenly turn your 2.5 into a 3.8. Though obviously, it won't hurt. Look at some of the TFA stories on here. Also, remember, that TFA is not something you can "just do." It had somewhere around a 10% acceptance rate this year. You seem smart, and for what it's worth, I really think you should add WUSTL to the list. And seriously, with a 2.5, I think it would be in your best interest to have as little hope as possible about the T14 in general, and even less about YHS.

I'm just trying to be realistic instead of coddling, but I know how much it sucks. Dual Enrollment is almost certainly going to screw me out of T6 (and probably T10) so, to a lesser extent, I feel your pain. The fact of the matter is, regardless of how unfair, most law schools aren't going to care why your LSAC GPA doesn't represent your intelligence; they care about how their admitted students statistics look.

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cigrainger
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby cigrainger » Wed May 05, 2010 2:04 pm

mah2012 wrote:
cigrainger wrote:
NayBoer wrote:I'd probably apply to the full T14 if you can afford it. If you luck out and get into Y or S, your girlfriend finding a job is hardly a barrier to going.

Don't be shocked if your highest admit is GULC. Or none of those. If nobody gives you leniency, then WashU is your highest admit without WE.


Perhaps you're right. We can figure something out if I get into Y or S! (Quit putting these crazy ideas in my head!) I won't be surprised if that's the case, but like I said: if I get locked out, I'll just look for employment elsewhere and reapply with WE later. TFA is something I want to do anyway and would certainly help.


I'm sorry, but that's not particularly true. TFA is sweet and all, but it's not going to suddenly turn your 2.5 into a 3.8. Though obviously, it won't hurt. Look at some of the TFA stories on here. Also, remember, that TFA is not something you can "just do." It had somewhere around a 10% acceptance rate this year. You seem smart, and for what it's worth, I really think you should add WUSTL to the list. And seriously, with a 2.5, I think it would be in your best interest to have as little hope as possible about the T14 in general, and even less about YHS.

I'm just trying to be realistic instead of coddling, but I know how much it sucks. Dual Enrollment is almost certainly going to screw me out of T6 (and probably T10) so, to a lesser extent, I feel your pain. The fact of the matter is, regardless of how unfair, most law schools aren't going to care why your LSAC GPA doesn't represent your intelligence; they care about how their admitted students statistics look.


No I know that definitely about TFA. That's why I said elsewhere 'apply': I know it's very competitive (and it's something I really want to do). There are a lot of things I could do, though, and nowhere else is so unreasonable as to take into consideration DE grades and all that. My grades, experience, and recommendations are pretty strong, in my humble opinion.

I'm just going to apply around and see what happens. I'll look into WUSTL, thank you.

andreea7
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby andreea7 » Wed May 05, 2010 2:17 pm

cigrainger wrote:So I've spoken to LSAC about this, and tried to retroactively withdraw from courses taken while dual enrolled w/ community college in high school. No dice from either. Basically, I'm a US citizen, grew up in the US, went to high school in the US, and, like many people here, made the mistake of dual enrolling. We all know how that comes back and bites people in the ass from time to time, despite supposedly being a good thing when we're in high school. Usually it's 0.1 or so off your LSAC GPA. Not nice at all, but not absurd.

Well, I went to undergrad in the UK instead of the US. LSAC does not provide a GPA for foreign transcripts. But they DO still provide me with a nice little LSAC GPA, which is not representative of my undergraduate work at all. My dual enrollment GPA. Now, despite getting into a good university in the UK, I did NOT do well in those dual enrollment courses (some mild family problems, bad case of senioritis, whatever, I was 17).

Despite earning a first class honours degree (unless I bombed several of my exams this year), which is an A average, my LSAC GPA is going to be, roughly, a lovely 2.5. Oh yes.

LSAC is trying to reassure me by telling me universities know that this is only from a few courses in high school. But because it's my LSAC GPA, law schools have to report it to USNWR -- 2.5 doesn't treat a median GPA very well, even at schools with big class sizes.

My question is: do you think LSAC is right, or do you think law schools are going to drop the dinghammer on me, despite otherwise being qualified? I'm practice testing in the upper 170's and will sit the June LSAT, and I'm hoping to break 170 on the actual test. I was hoping to have a shot at places like Harvard, Columbia, NYU, Chicago, Berkeley, Penn, Mich (no subtle X trolling here -- have a girlfriend who needs to be in a city for work). Is this going to lock me out of the t14?

Do I basically just have to try, spend all my time working on apps, only to possibly be shut out? Should I apply to a ridiculous range of schools and see what happens? After all this work, I'm not sure I want to shell out 200k for a much lower ranked school. It just doesn't seem cost effective to me.

Am I just being a drama queen? Do I need funny captioned animal pictures to tell me? :shock:


:(


I haven't read everything people told you here, but if I were you I wouldn't rely on the advice of some strangers. Try talking to someone who really knows law school admissions, maybe even try calling an admissions office at one of the schools you are interested in? Besides, isn't this one of the reasons to write a good addendum to your application?

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dutchstriker
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby dutchstriker » Wed May 05, 2010 2:27 pm

andreea7 wrote:I haven't read everything people told you here, but if I were you I wouldn't rely on the advice of some strangers. Try talking to someone who really knows law school admissions, maybe even try calling an admissions office at one of the schools you are interested in? Besides, isn't this one of the reasons to write a good addendum to your application?

I would listen to people on TLS well before I listened people who "really know law school admissions." Most people who pretend to know actually don't (prelaw advisors) and law school admissions offices have good reason to be vague/lie about this stuff.

TLS is an incredible resource and by using it wisely you will almost 100% of the time getting better answers than you could using the methods you mentioned. I would not have had the success I had this cycle without TLS.

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cigrainger
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby cigrainger » Wed May 05, 2010 2:37 pm

dutchstriker wrote:
andreea7 wrote:I haven't read everything people told you here, but if I were you I wouldn't rely on the advice of some strangers. Try talking to someone who really knows law school admissions, maybe even try calling an admissions office at one of the schools you are interested in? Besides, isn't this one of the reasons to write a good addendum to your application?

I would listen to people on TLS well before I listened people who "really know law school admissions." Most people who pretend to know actually don't (prelaw advisors) and law school admissions offices have good reason to be vague/lie about this stuff.

TLS is an incredible resource and by using it wisely you will almost 100% of the time getting better answers than you could using the methods you mentioned. I would not have had the success I had this cycle without TLS.


I've rung around a few admissions offices and they've all said basically to write an addendum and that will keep it from getting chucked, and it will basically flag it up for them to see the UK grades rather than taking the DE GPA at face value. Pretty solid advice, methinks.

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FlanAl
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby FlanAl » Wed May 05, 2010 2:47 pm

cigrainger,

Major congratulations on the 1st!!!

I was just hoping that you could make sure to post on one of the uk forums during your cycle. i think this will definitely be of interest for other uk students from the states who might have done community college courses over summers or whatever. also would it be ok to pm you with questions?

I'd also say that you should probably be ok since a 1st is golden and all the schools claim to look past the raw numbers. I would also apply to schools with exchange programs with your school. just a 0L opinion though.

Good Luck!

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cigrainger
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby cigrainger » Wed May 05, 2010 2:51 pm

FlanAl wrote:cigrainger,

Major congratulations on the 1st!!!

I was just hoping that you could make sure to post on one of the uk forums during your cycle. i think this will definitely be of interest for other uk students from the states who might have done community college courses over summers or whatever. also would it be ok to pm you with questions?

I'd also say that you should probably be ok since a 1st is golden and all the schools claim to look past the raw numbers. I would also apply to schools with exchange programs with your school. just a 0L opinion though.

Good Luck!


Thanks! It's not official yet, but it would take a big surprise for the 1st not to come in. I'll definitely post about my cycle here, and of course I'd be happy to chat via PM. Which UK forums would you recommend? The Student Room?

Cheers mate.. I really hope they're telling the truth when they say they look past the raw numbers. Maybe somewhere like Berkeley that really prides itself on its holistic process will show some kindness?

When are you applying?

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MrKappus
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby MrKappus » Wed May 05, 2010 3:02 pm

Get a law degree in the UK. :D

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cigrainger
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby cigrainger » Wed May 05, 2010 3:03 pm

MrKappus wrote:Get a law degree in the UK. :D


I have an American friend who's doing that; he's on a two-year accelerated LLB program at Cambridge starting next year. But I want to live in the US and practice in the US. And I don't think I would be happy with the way barristers work over here.

creatinganalt
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby creatinganalt » Wed May 05, 2010 3:05 pm

OP

Just thought about it - GET AN ADMISSIONS CONSULTANT NOW. You are exactly the kind of candidate who needs an admissions consultant. It would be worth every penny. Seriously. Adcoms at schools are generally not very useful (and as many people have said) tell you what you want to hear BUT an admissions consultant would be able to give you a frank assessment of your chances and help craft the best application you can. Don't skimp on this. Pay up for Ann Ivey or someone with a great rep.

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MrKappus
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby MrKappus » Wed May 05, 2010 3:08 pm

cigrainger wrote:
MrKappus wrote:Get a law degree in the UK. :D


I have an American friend who's doing that; he's on a two-year accelerated LLB program at Cambridge starting next year. But I want to live in the US and practice in the US. And I don't think I would be happy with the way barristers work over here.


Yeah...just kidding. The two systems are apples/oranges. You could wear a dope wig to Court, however.

Sorry to read about your situation. If Kafka could come back and write a novel about LSAC, the plotline'd probably look like this.

270910
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby 270910 » Wed May 05, 2010 3:14 pm

MrKappus wrote:If Kafka could come back and write a novel about LSAC, the plotline'd probably look like this.


True and hilarious - 180

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FlanAl
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby FlanAl » Wed May 05, 2010 3:17 pm

posting on student room would probably be good but also on some of the UK TLS forums would be great. I plan to apply in the fall and if there isn't a forum for UK applicant's on this site by then i will start one.

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YCrevolution
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby YCrevolution » Wed May 05, 2010 3:32 pm

..

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cigrainger
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby cigrainger » Wed May 05, 2010 7:26 pm

disco_barred wrote:
MrKappus wrote:If Kafka could come back and write a novel about LSAC, the plotline'd probably look like this.


True and hilarious - 180


I LOLed.

nawktasy
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby nawktasy » Thu May 06, 2010 4:49 am

cigrainger wrote:LSAC is trying to reassure me by telling me universities know that this is only from a few courses in high school. But because it's my LSAC GPA, law schools have to report it to USNWR -- 2.5 doesn't treat a median GPA very well, even at schools with big class sizes.

My question is: do you think LSAC is right, or do you think law schools are going to drop the dinghammer on me, despite otherwise being qualified? I'm practice testing in the upper 170's and will sit the June LSAT, and I'm hoping to break 170 on the actual test. I was hoping to have a shot at places like Harvard, Columbia, NYU, Chicago, Berkeley, Penn, Mich (no subtle X trolling here -- have a girlfriend who needs to be in a city for work). Is this going to lock me out of the t14?


What a sucky and IMO unjust situation, cigrainger. I have a few thoughts:

1) I'm pretty sure you've already done this, but do make sure you've uncovered every possible loophole or technicality with LSAC and/or the community college at which you DEed. Review the official, verbatim policies at both places regarding this matter, and make sure you talk(ed) to the "right" people at LSAC/the CC. If you've done this already, try to find out how you can get this policy changed. Don't count on it working, but it wouldn't hurt to try - and maybe with the right argument in front of the right people, LSAC's DE policy could change. I obviously wouldn't recommend this for just anything, and there are a lot of iffy LSAC policies that people do just have to accept, but, IMO, your situation as I understand it takes the cake. The LSAC can say all it wants about how writing an addendum will help, but the law schools aren't answering to LSAC - as you astutely point out, they're answering to USNWR. And I just don't see an addendum doing much of anything to make your 2.5 "acceptable" to the schools you mentioned.

2) That said, I certainly don't think it's *impossible* for you to get into a T10, and there are a few things still within your control. To start off, you should definitely find out whether at least one of the schools you mentioned has taken at least one non-URM 2.5 in the past. LSN/LSP would help with that. If there is such a case of this, try to discern what pushed the candidate over the edge. I'd venture to say that, if this has ever happened, it was because of both a really high LSAT and some compelling soft factor (e.g. Rhodes). So, first, it is imperative that you get a high LSAT (obvious, but the closer you get to 180, the harder you are to ignore - and you're testing close to that range anyhow). Second, and perhaps more within your control than getting nothing less than a 180, find something compelling and impactful to do and do it. I don't think doing TFA in and of itself will make a huge difference, although you should definitely do it if you feel like it's the right direction for you, notwithstanding its impact on your applications. And you're not going to win a Rhodes or cure cancer soon - not that you're incapable, but I feel like you would've mentioned it, hehe. But there are lay people doing big things every day, in politics, community service, etc. - who's to say you can't? Easier said than done, of course, but possible - and if it's T10 or bust for you, necessary. So, in summary, I'd say it's not a strictly impossible situation. 2.5 w/GPA addendum + 180ish + incredible soft + a bit of luck could = T10. Relatedly, unless you find compelling evidence that X school has a pattern of taking 2.5s with certain LSAT/softs ED, I think you should just apply RD, though early to these schools.

3) Even if you get a high LSAT and acquire a game-changing soft, luck will still play a role in the case of an extreme splitter. So, in case all of the above doesn't work out, do start to accept now that, as it stands, your odds at the T10 are not good - so having "safeties" is very important.

Good luck with everything! I hope it all works out.
Last edited by nawktasy on Thu May 06, 2010 5:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Nom Sawyer
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby Nom Sawyer » Thu May 06, 2010 5:06 am

If I were you OP (and I know your taking your last exam, planning on graduating right after, etc.) I would do anything possible to delay my graduation for either one semester or until the end of the summer...

Seeing how your US GPA is only a couple of mistakes in High School this is the one case where you SHOULD go and take several online US courses over the summer, grab A+'s and get your LSAC GPA closer to what your international degree really is.. So try to get a minor or do something to extend finishing your graduate degree by a little bit, get those online course so you have a 3.5ish, and then you would have a much, much better shot at the schools you want to apply to.

And yeah, I agree the situation isn't very fair in your case.

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cigrainger
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby cigrainger » Thu May 06, 2010 6:06 am

Thank you guys for the advice and well-wishing. I sent another email to LSAC this morning, but I may ring up. I'll definitely look to see about all that on LSN. It seems crazy that if I had not done a handful of dual enrollment classes in high school, trying to get upper 170's and pulling a magnificent soft factor out of a hat would be the makings of a HYS application, and now it's just for a shot at the T14 at all. It's just the cards that have been dealt though, so I just have to do what I can. I'm not opposed to applying PT at GULC either, just was giving that some thought to that possibility.

Nom Sawyer (awesome name by the way), my email to LSAC this morning asked about whether, because it's a UK undergraduate degree, it precludes me from continuing US undergrad courses towards my LSAC GPA. Maybe there's a loophole there. I can't delay my graduation -- the jobs I am pursuing teaching english in Japan require the degree, and I don't think I could get my school to delay it without keeping me enrolled/paying tuition anyway.

Again, thanks. I'll keep you guys updated and keep in mind your advice.

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cigrainger
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby cigrainger » Thu May 06, 2010 9:53 am

Do you guys think 250 words is alright for an addendum? I want to clear up the issue about the GPA and mention why my first year grades (though not horrible) are not as good as the rest of my grades (I had post-streptococcal inflammation with intense joint and muscle pain that lasted over six months).
Last edited by cigrainger on Thu May 06, 2010 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

270910
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby 270910 » Thu May 06, 2010 9:55 am

cigrainger wrote:Do you guys think 250 words is alright for an addendum? I want to clear up the issue about the GPA and mention why my first year grades (though not horrible) are not as good as the rest of my grades (I had rheumatic fever with intense general inflammation that lasted over six months).


I'd say 250 is the absolute limit. Addenda are in most cases a place to convey info quickly, not write a towering essay. Keeping it shorter than 250 will convey maturity and respect to the adcoms, but as long as it's < 1 page you'll probably be good.




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