Another LSAC victim. Question.

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
User avatar
cigrainger
Posts: 439
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:34 pm

Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby cigrainger » Wed May 05, 2010 11:54 am

Desert Fox wrote:I'm usually a big supporter of LSAT/GPA/URM being basically all that matters, but I think here, where your GPA is made up of a few courses taken in high school, you may be able to significantly out perform your GPA.

What is your UK gpa?

I'd apply to any school your LSAT is above their median. But you need to write a GPA addendum explaining exactly what happened. You application better be mother fucking flawless.

Once you are below a schools median GPA, it really doesn't hurt their USNEWs rankings, and once you are below their 25% GPA, it doesn't matter at all how low your GPA. But schools don't want idiots and slackers, however your gpa isn't really representative.

Now if your UK GPA is only so-so, you are going to have a hard time arguing that the GPA is not representative of your GPA.

If you get a 175+, I'd apply to the entire T14, including Yale. If you don't get into one, get a job and then apply ED to Northwestern the year after.


Thank you for this. In the UK we don't have a GPA (hence the problem of the ONLY GPA being shown as my high school DE grades), but I'll probably be graduating with a first class honours (unless I bombed stuff this year, which I don't think I did), which is basically an A average. I had a very very bad illness in first year, which complicates things as well, but I still managed the equivalent of a B average that year (and in the UK, only your last two years count for degree classification). Basically, according to rough translation, even including my poorish first year grades I have somewhere around a 3.8. That obviously depends on how things are translated, and LSAC does not translate things that way. The way LSAC does it, it will just say 'Superior' with an overview of my marks.

User avatar
kswiss
Posts: 391
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:58 am

Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby kswiss » Wed May 05, 2010 11:58 am

If you wait a year, take a couple online classes from a U.S. university. You could take the easiest 3 classes you could find and raise your GPA to like 3.5.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby 09042014 » Wed May 05, 2010 11:59 am

cigrainger wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I'm usually a big supporter of LSAT/GPA/URM being basically all that matters, but I think here, where your GPA is made up of a few courses taken in high school, you may be able to significantly out perform your GPA.

What is your UK gpa?

I'd apply to any school your LSAT is above their median. But you need to write a GPA addendum explaining exactly what happened. You application better be mother fucking flawless.

Once you are below a schools median GPA, it really doesn't hurt their USNEWs rankings, and once you are below their 25% GPA, it doesn't matter at all how low your GPA. But schools don't want idiots and slackers, however your gpa isn't really representative.

Now if your UK GPA is only so-so, you are going to have a hard time arguing that the GPA is not representative of your GPA.

If you get a 175+, I'd apply to the entire T14, including Yale. If you don't get into one, get a job and then apply ED to Northwestern the year after.


Thank you for this. In the UK we don't have a GPA (hence the problem of the ONLY GPA being shown as my high school DE grades), but I'll probably be graduating with a first class honours (unless I bombed stuff this year, which I don't think I did), which is basically an A average. I had a very very bad illness in first year, which complicates things as well, but I still managed the equivalent of a B average that year (and in the UK, only your last two years count for degree classification). Basically, according to rough translation, even including my poorish first year grades I have somewhere around a 3.8. That obviously depends on how things are translated, and LSAC does not translate things that way. The way LSAC does it, it will just say 'Superior' with an overview of my marks.


I don't want to be too optimistic, but there really isn't a reason for schools to punish you, but I'm sure some will. But you never know where you find that sympathetic adcom. Cornell might say "fuck this guy" and Columbia might understand. This is why you must apply to all the top schools.

Really focus on your LSAT.

I assume you are about to graduate? If not there might be other options.

User avatar
x47point6
Posts: 101
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:43 pm

Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby x47point6 » Wed May 05, 2010 12:00 pm

Desert Fox wrote:If you get a 175+, I'd apply to the entire T14, including Yale. If you don't get into one, get a job and then apply ED to Northwestern the year after.


This.

A 173+, even, and a first-class and you're competitive for HYS. H and Y (and possibly S) don't really have to worry about the USNWR, so in theory they have the privilege of being able to make case-by-case exceptions, whereas CCN on down pretty much are beholden to the rankings/numbers game.

User avatar
NayBoer
Posts: 1013
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:24 pm

Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby NayBoer » Wed May 05, 2010 12:01 pm

Desert Fox wrote:If you get a 175+, I'd apply to the entire T14, including Yale. If you don't get into one, get a job and then apply ED to Northwestern the year after.
This was going to be my advice, except not Yale. Get a job now, ideally one requiring a BA.

Schools are not going to tell you that they just look to the numbers and ignore your resume. But they basically do. You're pretending that you are applying for the community spirit, amazing clinics and credentialed professors even though you really want the prestige and the job prospects. Why should schools be 100% honest when you aren't?

User avatar
YCrevolution
Posts: 4714
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 1:25 am

Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby YCrevolution » Wed May 05, 2010 12:01 pm

..

User avatar
cigrainger
Posts: 439
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:34 pm

Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby cigrainger » Wed May 05, 2010 12:01 pm

kswiss wrote:If you wait a year, take a couple online classes from a U.S. university. You could take the easiest 3 classes you could find and raise your GPA to like 3.5.


See my response above. LSAC slams the door shut.

User avatar
NayBoer
Posts: 1013
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:24 pm

Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby NayBoer » Wed May 05, 2010 12:01 pm

kswiss wrote:If you wait a year, take a couple online classes from a U.S. university. You could take the easiest 3 classes you could find and raise your GPA to like 3.5.
If he's already graduated, it's too late for this to work.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby 09042014 » Wed May 05, 2010 12:02 pm

x47point6 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:If you get a 175+, I'd apply to the entire T14, including Yale. If you don't get into one, get a job and then apply ED to Northwestern the year after.


This.

A 173+, even, and a first-class and you're competitive for HYS. H and Y (and possibly S) don't really have to worry about the USNWR, so in theory they have the privilege of being able to make case-by-case exceptions, whereas CCN on down pretty much are beholden to the rankings/numbers game.


Even at CCN, a 2.5 hurts their rankings exactly the same as a 3.5.

User avatar
cigrainger
Posts: 439
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:34 pm

Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby cigrainger » Wed May 05, 2010 12:03 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
cigrainger wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I'm usually a big supporter of LSAT/GPA/URM being basically all that matters, but I think here, where your GPA is made up of a few courses taken in high school, you may be able to significantly out perform your GPA.

What is your UK gpa?

I'd apply to any school your LSAT is above their median. But you need to write a GPA addendum explaining exactly what happened. You application better be mother fucking flawless.

Once you are below a schools median GPA, it really doesn't hurt their USNEWs rankings, and once you are below their 25% GPA, it doesn't matter at all how low your GPA. But schools don't want idiots and slackers, however your gpa isn't really representative.

Now if your UK GPA is only so-so, you are going to have a hard time arguing that the GPA is not representative of your GPA.

If you get a 175+, I'd apply to the entire T14, including Yale. If you don't get into one, get a job and then apply ED to Northwestern the year after.


Thank you for this. In the UK we don't have a GPA (hence the problem of the ONLY GPA being shown as my high school DE grades), but I'll probably be graduating with a first class honours (unless I bombed stuff this year, which I don't think I did), which is basically an A average. I had a very very bad illness in first year, which complicates things as well, but I still managed the equivalent of a B average that year (and in the UK, only your last two years count for degree classification). Basically, according to rough translation, even including my poorish first year grades I have somewhere around a 3.8. That obviously depends on how things are translated, and LSAC does not translate things that way. The way LSAC does it, it will just say 'Superior' with an overview of my marks.


I don't want to be too optimistic, but there really isn't a reason for schools to punish you, but I'm sure some will. But you never know where you find that sympathetic adcom. Cornell might say "fuck this guy" and Columbia might understand. This is why you must apply to all the top schools.

Really focus on your LSAT.

I assume you are about to graduate? If not there might be other options.


Thank you for the advice. I'm just going to have to apply everywhere and see what sticks. I am about to graduate. One more exam to go!

User avatar
cigrainger
Posts: 439
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:34 pm

Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby cigrainger » Wed May 05, 2010 12:04 pm

NayBoer wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:If you get a 175+, I'd apply to the entire T14, including Yale. If you don't get into one, get a job and then apply ED to Northwestern the year after.
This was going to be my advice, except not Yale. Get a job now, ideally one requiring a BA.

Schools are not going to tell you that they just look to the numbers and ignore your resume. But they basically do. You're pretending that you are applying for the community spirit, amazing clinics and credentialed professors even though you really want the prestige and the job prospects. Why should schools be 100% honest when you aren't?


You're right. And I'll be teaching English abroad (Japan) for this coming year.

User avatar
NayBoer
Posts: 1013
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:24 pm

Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby NayBoer » Wed May 05, 2010 12:04 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
x47point6 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:If you get a 175+, I'd apply to the entire T14, including Yale. If you don't get into one, get a job and then apply ED to Northwestern the year after.


This.

A 173+, even, and a first-class and you're competitive for HYS. H and Y (and possibly S) don't really have to worry about the USNWR, so in theory they have the privilege of being able to make case-by-case exceptions, whereas CCN on down pretty much are beholden to the rankings/numbers game.


Even at CCN, a 2.5 hurts their rankings exactly the same as a 3.5.
Yeah, forgot to dispute that part of the OP. It doesn't matter what the class size is. Once more: median =/= mean.

User avatar
cigrainger
Posts: 439
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:34 pm

Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby cigrainger » Wed May 05, 2010 12:06 pm

NayBoer wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
x47point6 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:If you get a 175+, I'd apply to the entire T14, including Yale. If you don't get into one, get a job and then apply ED to Northwestern the year after.


This.

A 173+, even, and a first-class and you're competitive for HYS. H and Y (and possibly S) don't really have to worry about the USNWR, so in theory they have the privilege of being able to make case-by-case exceptions, whereas CCN on down pretty much are beholden to the rankings/numbers game.


Even at CCN, a 2.5 hurts their rankings exactly the same as a 3.5.
Yeah, forgot to dispute that part of the OP. It doesn't matter what the class size is. Once more: median =/= mean.


Oh wow, I completely glazed over that it was median and not mean. Hm...

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby 09042014 » Wed May 05, 2010 12:07 pm

NayBoer wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:If you get a 175+, I'd apply to the entire T14, including Yale. If you don't get into one, get a job and then apply ED to Northwestern the year after.
This was going to be my advice, except not Yale. Get a job now, ideally one requiring a BA.

Schools are not going to tell you that they just look to the numbers and ignore your resume. But they basically do. You're pretending that you are applying for the community spirit, amazing clinics and credentialed professors even though you really want the prestige and the job prospects. Why should schools be 100% honest when you aren't?


There is no reason why Yale would be out of the question. In fact they may be one of the more likely ones to forgive it, only because they do have somewhat of a holistic admissions process. They at least read the PS.

270910
Posts: 2437
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 9:51 pm

Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby 270910 » Wed May 05, 2010 12:09 pm

Desert Fox wrote:I'm usually a big supporter of LSAT/GPA/URM being basically all that matters, but I think here, where your GPA is made up of a few courses taken in high school, you may be able to significantly out perform your GPA.

What is your UK gpa?

I'd apply to any school your LSAT is above their median. But you need to write a GPA addendum explaining exactly what happened. You application better be mother fucking flawless.

Once you are below a schools median GPA, it really doesn't hurt their USNEWs rankings, and once you are below their 25% GPA, it doesn't matter at all how low your GPA. But schools don't want idiots and slackers, however your gpa isn't really representative.

Now if your UK GPA is only so-so, you are going to have a hard time arguing that the GPA is not representative of your GPA.

If you get a 175+, I'd apply to the entire T14, including Yale. If you don't get into one, get a job and then apply ED to Northwestern the year after.


Big +1 to this.

Schools are absolutely merciless about counting the LSAC GPA since they are forced to report it - but every school takes splitters. This is literally the most unqiue uGPA question I have ever seen on TLS. Schools aren't dumb.

Prediction: OP will have the best cycle anyone with a 2.5 has ever had, bar none. OP will also get a few dings from schools that decide they can't take the U.S. News hit of the 2.5 uGPA.

Because it will be hard to predict, you more than anyone need to apply to a lot of schools. And write a short (maybe 1-2 paragraph) addendum so that the ad coms are completely clear about why the LSAC says you're a C student and the UK thinks you're a favorite son/daughter.

creatinganalt
Posts: 272
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 6:41 pm

Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby creatinganalt » Wed May 05, 2010 12:10 pm

cigrainger wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I'm usually a big supporter of LSAT/GPA/URM being basically all that matters, but I think here, where your GPA is made up of a few courses taken in high school, you may be able to significantly out perform your GPA.

What is your UK gpa?

I'd apply to any school your LSAT is above their median. But you need to write a GPA addendum explaining exactly what happened. You application better be mother fucking flawless.

Once you are below a schools median GPA, it really doesn't hurt their USNEWs rankings, and once you are below their 25% GPA, it doesn't matter at all how low your GPA. But schools don't want idiots and slackers, however your gpa isn't really representative.

Now if your UK GPA is only so-so, you are going to have a hard time arguing that the GPA is not representative of your GPA.

If you get a 175+, I'd apply to the entire T14, including Yale. If you don't get into one, get a job and then apply ED to Northwestern the year after.


Thank you for this. In the UK we don't have a GPA (hence the problem of the ONLY GPA being shown as my high school DE grades), but I'll probably be graduating with a first class honours (unless I bombed stuff this year, which I don't think I did), which is basically an A average. I had a very very bad illness in first year, which complicates things as well, but I still managed the equivalent of a B average that year (and in the UK, only your last two years count for degree classification). Basically, according to rough translation, even including my poorish first year grades I have somewhere around a 3.8. That obviously depends on how things are translated, and LSAC does not translate things that way. The way LSAC does it, it will just say 'Superior' with an overview of my marks.


Normally a 1st will be treated like a 4.0 basically. Make sure that if your rank is favorable that you get it in your application somewhere. I don't know where you are in the UK but you need to go over and beyond in your app to make sure the adcoms know the rigor of your course/uni/dept. Don't assume. Get your recommenders to address this and write a very clear addendum. And apply early. Everyone in the UK will be inefficient and take forever for stuff that isn't common there, e.g. Dean's certificates.

User avatar
YCrevolution
Posts: 4714
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 1:25 am

Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby YCrevolution » Wed May 05, 2010 12:11 pm

..

cr073137
Posts: 233
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:14 pm

Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby cr073137 » Wed May 05, 2010 12:20 pm

If I were you, since there are only a few courses, I would enroll in a community college over the summer and take a few BS courses, get the A on them, and use them to boost your GPA. Even if they are online... I know, it sucks, but there are some schools that are not online only, but offer a few courses online, especially computer courses, and dont look terrible on transcript (and Ad comm dont care much about the school either). Take 2 or 3, or whatever it takes to boost your GPA. If you are going to be in the states over the summer, just enroll in your local community college or any "easy" college for that matter and take a language course (if you are fluent in another language) or any course that you know you will get an A+ on. Btw, A+ are 4.33 for GPA LSAC, so they are an extra boost. Try to bring your GPA as high as possible, 4 A+ (2 classes per summer session, most schools have 2) should bring your GPA significantly.

User avatar
YCrevolution
Posts: 4714
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 1:25 am

Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby YCrevolution » Wed May 05, 2010 12:21 pm

..

User avatar
NayBoer
Posts: 1013
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:24 pm

Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby NayBoer » Wed May 05, 2010 12:24 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
NayBoer wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:If you get a 175+, I'd apply to the entire T14, including Yale. If you don't get into one, get a job and then apply ED to Northwestern the year after.
This was going to be my advice, except not Yale. Get a job now, ideally one requiring a BA.

Schools are not going to tell you that they just look to the numbers and ignore your resume. But they basically do. You're pretending that you are applying for the community spirit, amazing clinics and credentialed professors even though you really want the prestige and the job prospects. Why should schools be 100% honest when you aren't?


There is no reason why Yale would be out of the question. In fact they may be one of the more likely ones to forgive it, only because they do have somewhat of a holistic admissions process. They at least read the PS.
I suppose it's worth a shot, money permitting. Yale seems much more likely to look past low LSAT (for URMs) than a low LSAC GPA, judging by LSN.

I think if any will forgive it will be Boalt, or maybe small chance at Mich or Penn with ED. NU ED most likely with WE.

Still a reasonable chance that OP will be waitlisted at NU and GULC and his best admit will be WUSTL.

BizOwner
Posts: 89
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:16 am

Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby BizOwner » Wed May 05, 2010 12:26 pm

Call me what you will, but I'm amazed at how so many law school applicants are "T-14 or bust". The OP here has expressed complete frustration over the issue but, at least in any postings, has not showed an interest in what the schools offer other than T-14 prestige.

With all do respect to the OP, do we as applicants get too caught up in the rankings and whore ourselves out, and not evaluate thoroughly what we are subscribing to for the next 3 years?

My perspective may be due to my age (30s) but seriously. Could this "whoring" be symbolic of what your going to provide the legal community after LS?

User avatar
KibblesAndVick
Posts: 541
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2010 5:29 am

Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby KibblesAndVick » Wed May 05, 2010 12:29 pm

BizOwner wrote:Call me what you will, but I'm amazed at how so many law school applicants are "T-14 or bust". The OP here has expressed complete frustration over the issue but, at least in any postings, has not showed an interest in what the schools offer other than T-14 prestige.

With all do respect to the OP, do we as applicants get too caught up in the rankings and whore ourselves out, and not evaluate thoroughly what we are subscribing to for the next 3 years?

My perspective may be due to my age (30s) but seriously. Could this "whoring" be symbolic of what your going to provide the legal community after LS?


"Whoring" out to the legal community is a funny way of saying "having a job"...

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby 09042014 » Wed May 05, 2010 12:30 pm

NayBoer wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
NayBoer wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:If you get a 175+, I'd apply to the entire T14, including Yale. If you don't get into one, get a job and then apply ED to Northwestern the year after.
This was going to be my advice, except not Yale. Get a job now, ideally one requiring a BA.

Schools are not going to tell you that they just look to the numbers and ignore your resume. But they basically do. You're pretending that you are applying for the community spirit, amazing clinics and credentialed professors even though you really want the prestige and the job prospects. Why should schools be 100% honest when you aren't?


There is no reason why Yale would be out of the question. In fact they may be one of the more likely ones to forgive it, only because they do have somewhat of a holistic admissions process. They at least read the PS.
I suppose it's worth a shot, money permitting. Yale seems much more likely to look past low LSAT (for URMs) than a low LSAC GPA, judging by LSN.

I think if any will forgive it will be Boalt, or maybe small chance at Mich or Penn with ED. NU ED most likely with WE.

Still a reasonable chance that OP will be waitlisted at NU and GULC and his best admit will be WUSTL.


Depending on the LSAT, if they don't get GULC or NU, I'd reapply and ED at NU the year after.

User avatar
cigrainger
Posts: 439
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:34 pm

Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby cigrainger » Wed May 05, 2010 12:31 pm

BizOwner wrote:Call me what you will, but I'm amazed at how so many law school applicants are "T-14 or bust". The OP here has expressed complete frustration over the issue but, at least in any postings, has not showed an interest in what the schools offer other than T-14 prestige.

With all do respect to the OP, do we as applicants get too caught up in the rankings and whore ourselves out, and not evaluate thoroughly what we are subscribing to for the next 3 years?

My perspective may be due to my age (30s) but seriously. Could this "whoring" be symbolic of what your going to provide the legal community after LS?


You're not wrong to think this based on what I have (or haven't) posted here. My issue is that I have worked very (very) hard for top marks at undergrad, and law school is an investment. I'm actually not interested in BigLaw or whoring for prestige. But when you look at clerkships, and you look at placement in top plaintiff's firms and major public interest positions, the top schools dominate the field. They also provide the best LRAPs (though IBR is making that less important). I want to go to a top school because I think it is a better investment of my time and money based on my career objectives, and because I feel that I have worked extremely hard to get a shot at the top schools. It very little to do with prestige and a lot to do with the opportunities it opens up and the chance to work with some of the top legal academics (obviously there are top academics and practitioners at many other law schools, but they are in a higher concentration at the T14).

User avatar
NayBoer
Posts: 1013
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:24 pm

Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby NayBoer » Wed May 05, 2010 12:32 pm

BizOwner wrote:Call me what you will, but I'm amazed at how so many law school applicants are "T-14 or bust". The OP here has expressed complete frustration over the issue but, at least in any postings, has not showed an interest in what the schools offer other than T-14 prestige.

With all do respect to the OP, do we as applicants get too caught up in the rankings and whore ourselves out, and not evaluate thoroughly what we are subscribing to for the next 3 years?

My perspective may be due to my age (30s) but seriously. Could this "whoring" be symbolic of what your going to provide the legal community after LS?
Don't be so self-righteous.

And fuck the rankings; I just want the job. If I gave a shit about impressing people, I wouldn't be looking into tax law.

There aren't a lot of jobs. Aside from being known quantities with strong reputations, the top schools have already pre-sorted law students based on certain measures of raw ability (like the LSAT) and so forth. Firms rely on this pre-sorting so that they can search for talent in a more limited pool.

If I thought I could pay off my debt and get an interesting, high-paying job going to a lower-prestige school for less money then I would. But I like my chances better in the T14, even though the shot at biglaw from my school is roughly only 1 in 2.




Return to “Law School Admissions Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: hwwong and 4 guests