Another LSAC victim. Question.

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cigrainger
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Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby cigrainger » Wed May 05, 2010 9:57 am

So I've spoken to LSAC about this, and tried to retroactively withdraw from courses taken while dual enrolled w/ community college in high school. No dice from either. Basically, I'm a US citizen, grew up in the US, went to high school in the US, and, like many people here, made the mistake of dual enrolling. We all know how that comes back and bites people in the ass from time to time, despite supposedly being a good thing when we're in high school. Usually it's 0.1 or so off your LSAC GPA. Not nice at all, but not absurd.

Well, I went to undergrad in the UK instead of the US. LSAC does not provide a GPA for foreign transcripts. But they DO still provide me with a nice little LSAC GPA, which is not representative of my undergraduate work at all. My dual enrollment GPA. Now, despite getting into a good university in the UK, I did NOT do well in those dual enrollment courses (some mild family problems, bad case of senioritis, whatever, I was 17).

Despite earning a first class honours degree (unless I bombed several of my exams this year), which is an A average, my LSAC GPA is going to be, roughly, a lovely 2.5. Oh yes.

LSAC is trying to reassure me by telling me universities know that this is only from a few courses in high school. But because it's my LSAC GPA, law schools have to report it to USNWR -- 2.5 doesn't treat a median GPA very well, even at schools with big class sizes.

My question is: do you think LSAC is right, or do you think law schools are going to drop the dinghammer on me, despite otherwise being qualified? I'm practice testing in the upper 170's and will sit the June LSAT, and I'm hoping to break 170 on the actual test. I was hoping to have a shot at places like Harvard, Columbia, NYU, Chicago, Berkeley, Penn, Mich (no subtle X trolling here -- have a girlfriend who needs to be in a city for work). Is this going to lock me out of the t14?

Do I basically just have to try, spend all my time working on apps, only to possibly be shut out? Should I apply to a ridiculous range of schools and see what happens? After all this work, I'm not sure I want to shell out 200k for a much lower ranked school. It just doesn't seem cost effective to me.

Am I just being a drama queen? Do I need funny captioned animal pictures to tell me? :shock:


:(

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cigrainger
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby cigrainger » Wed May 05, 2010 9:59 am

Sorry for multiple posts, TLS is being weird. Trying to delete the second one now.

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cigrainger
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby cigrainger » Wed May 05, 2010 10:20 am

boo jersey shore wrote:If you score in the range you are PT'ing at, ed at NU. Other than them, T14 may be a stretch. You might try UVA because of the quick turnaround as well.


This is insane to me. I'm going to graduate in basically the top 5% of my year, and now I'm suddenly a splitter because of a handful of DE courses. Thank you for your input though. I'm just bummed.

makingasnack
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby makingasnack » Wed May 05, 2010 10:31 am

That sucks. Unfortunately, LSAC can do whatever it wants to and this is one of the flaws in the admissions system. They say they will look past the GPA since it doesn't represent your college work, but since they have to report it, you know that will be a big factor.

How many credits did you take through dual enrollment? You may not like this idea, but if it's only a few, why not take another year off and take courses through a community college or some school online and get a bunch of A+'s in them? Heck, depending on how important this is to you, you could inflate your GPA up to a killer #!

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cigrainger
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby cigrainger » Wed May 05, 2010 10:34 am

makingasnack wrote:That sucks. Unfortunately, LSAC can do whatever it wants to and this is one of the flaws in the admissions system. They say they will look past the GPA since it doesn't represent your college work, but since they have to report it, you know that will be a big factor.

How many credits did you take through dual enrollment? You may not like this idea, but if it's only a few, why not take another year off and take courses through a community college or some school online and get a bunch of A+'s in them? Heck, depending on how important this is to you, you could inflate your GPA up to a killer #!


Unfortunately once you earn an undergraduate degree, LSAC closes up shop on counting any more credits for this very reason. I'm graduating after one more exam.

jarofsoup
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby jarofsoup » Wed May 05, 2010 10:37 am

Call Law schools that you really want to go to and ask them how they look at it. This is the only way to really find out.

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cigrainger
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby cigrainger » Wed May 05, 2010 10:46 am

jarofsoup wrote:Call Law schools that you really want to go to and ask them how they look at it. This is the only way to really find out.


I think I will. Thanks for this advice.

makingasnack
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby makingasnack » Wed May 05, 2010 10:46 am

cigrainger wrote:
makingasnack wrote:That sucks. Unfortunately, LSAC can do whatever it wants to and this is one of the flaws in the admissions system. They say they will look past the GPA since it doesn't represent your college work, but since they have to report it, you know that will be a big factor.

How many credits did you take through dual enrollment? You may not like this idea, but if it's only a few, why not take another year off and take courses through a community college or some school online and get a bunch of A+'s in them? Heck, depending on how important this is to you, you could inflate your GPA up to a killer #!


Unfortunately once you earn an undergraduate degree, LSAC closes up shop on counting any more credits for this very reason. I'm graduating after one more exam.


Really? Good to know. That really is awful, but I agree with jarofsoup. I think it would definitely be worth an addendum as well. With a score into the 170's and a good addendum, I think you may still be able to crack the T-14, but it's hard to say since you are will be a huge splitter.

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cigrainger
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby cigrainger » Wed May 05, 2010 11:04 am

boo jersey shore wrote:
cigrainger wrote:
jarofsoup wrote:Call Law schools that you really want to go to and ask them how they look at it. This is the only way to really find out.


I think I will. Thanks for this advice.

Please don't think I am being a dick with this, but what are you expecting to hear? The school will most likely tell you about how they take a "holistic approach" to the process and will look at your packet in its entirety. What they really care about is your LSAT/GPA.

I know you are a bit panicked right now, OP. I understand. All you can do is buckle down on the LSAT, and put together a solid packet. Calling will most likely not provide you a solid answer and the admissions offices have enough going on as is.


Just rang a couple and they said that the DE grades will not be a big deal in the application. They said the adcoms will see that they are from high school and not place undue weight on them. Maybe they're lying, dunno. Will just have to wait and see. They were very pleasant and happy to help though. I feel a bit better now. We'll see if I feel this way if the dings start rolling in this winter.

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cigrainger
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby cigrainger » Wed May 05, 2010 11:14 am

boo jersey shore wrote:
cigrainger wrote:Just rang a couple and they said that the DE grades will not be a big deal in the application. They said the adcoms will see that they are from high school and not place undue weight on them. Maybe they're lying, dunno. Will just have to wait and see. They were very pleasant and happy to help though. I feel a bit better now. We'll see if I feel this way if the dings start rolling in this winter.

They will place the due weight, which is quite a bit. Trust me on this one, dood. Kick the LSAT's ass and consider ed'ing to UVA followed by ed to NU should the uva thing not work out.



How is their 'due' weight quite a lot? That makes no sense. Columbia said just to write an addendum so it's flagged for them immediately.

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YCrevolution
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby YCrevolution » Wed May 05, 2010 11:16 am

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cigrainger
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby cigrainger » Wed May 05, 2010 11:21 am

boo jersey shore wrote:
cigrainger wrote:
boo jersey shore wrote:
cigrainger wrote:Just rang a couple and they said that the DE grades will not be a big deal in the application. They said the adcoms will see that they are from high school and not place undue weight on them. Maybe they're lying, dunno. Will just have to wait and see. They were very pleasant and happy to help though. I feel a bit better now. We'll see if I feel this way if the dings start rolling in this winter.

They will place the due weight, which is quite a bit. Trust me on this one, dood. Kick the LSAT's ass and consider ed'ing to UVA followed by ed to NU should the uva thing not work out.



How is their 'due' weight quite a lot? That makes no sense. Columbia said just to write an addendum so it's flagged for them immediately.

Law schools care about three things, generally: GPA/LSAT/URM status. Sure, a good PS will not hurt you, but you are nuts if you think that GPA is not going to seriously, seriously hurt your chances. Look, I'm trying to be honest with you man. That 2.5 is going to limit your options. Columbia isn't happening. Neither is YHS. But that doesn't mean you can't get top 14 if you play your cards right. There are a lot of splitters running around this cycle who could give you great advice about application strategies.


Are you not seeing how absurd it is to base my 2.5 on a handful of DE courses when I'll be graduating near the top of my class? Am I wrong in thinking law school adcoms are not retarded? How does it make any sense for a handful of courses taken in high school to negate four years of work?

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YCrevolution
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby YCrevolution » Wed May 05, 2010 11:23 am

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d34d9823
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby d34d9823 » Wed May 05, 2010 11:27 am

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Last edited by d34d9823 on Thu May 20, 2010 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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cigrainger
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby cigrainger » Wed May 05, 2010 11:28 am

boo jersey shore wrote:
cigrainger wrote:Are you not seeing how absurd it is to base my 2.5 on a handful of DE courses when I'll be graduating near the top of my class? Am I wrong in thinking law school adcoms are not retarded?

I said absolutely nothing about that, cig. I'm being a pragmatist. The USNWR rankings place a lot of emphasis on the GPA, and therefore so do the law schools. Whether or not its right, IT IS WHAT IT IS. There is nothing wrong with being frustrated about it. There is something worng if you let that frustration cause you to make bad decisions in your upcoming cycle. You have to think, man. Don't let the fact that you got fucked over once continue to fuck you over in the future.


Maybe you're right. We'll see. I'm not going to ED at a school I don't want to go to on the chance (however likely) that adcoms will be absurd about this. I'll probably sling a whole bunch of shit against the wall and see if anything sticks.

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cigrainger
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby cigrainger » Wed May 05, 2010 11:29 am

boo jersey shore wrote:
d34dluk3 wrote:Have you already sent your transcripts to LSAC? I know of several people who failed out their first attempt at college and just didn't bother to send those transcripts.

Note: for this to work, they can't be on your good transcript.

Second note: this might be fraud, I'm not sure, proceed at your own risk.

It is fraud.


It is and I have no interest in spending 200k on law school just to be denied access to the bar. Not to mention, you know, it's wrong.

d34d9823
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby d34d9823 » Wed May 05, 2010 11:32 am

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cigrainger
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby cigrainger » Wed May 05, 2010 11:33 am

boo jersey shore wrote:
cigrainger wrote:I'll probably sling a whole bunch of shit against the wall and see if anything sticks.

Now we're talking. Still, if you are a T-14 or bust kind of guy, you may need to consider ED.


I know you don't think it's wise, but I will probably ED at Columbia or NYU, depending on what my LSAT is. I've just got to go on the possibility that they're telling me the truth, and if I ED at NU or UVA and then it turns out they were being honest and I get accepted at, say Columbia or NYU, I would be well pissed.

If I get locked out, I'll figure it out from there.
Last edited by cigrainger on Wed May 05, 2010 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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YCrevolution
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby YCrevolution » Wed May 05, 2010 11:34 am

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cigrainger
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby cigrainger » Wed May 05, 2010 11:36 am

YCrevolution wrote:
boo jersey shore wrote:
cigrainger wrote:I'll probably sling a whole bunch of shit against the wall and see if anything sticks.

Now we're talking. Still, if you are a T-14 or bust kind of guy, you may need to consider ED.

If you're willing to forego law school (for a year, two years, or forever...) if you don't get into any T14 schools, then apply to all of them and see what happens. With a strong LSAT (at least 170, ideally higher), your chances improve at all of them.

If you're a bit more risk-adverse or really want to go to a T14 law school in Fall 2011, then do what Boo said and ED to UVA, and, if that fails, ED to Northwestern. Note that some schools only allow you to ED once per cycle (and you can never ED to more than one a school at a time... a decision has to be rendered at your first ED school before you ED at the second school, etc.)


I'm happy to forego it if I get locked out. It would give me an excuse to do TFA and then reapply.

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YCrevolution
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby YCrevolution » Wed May 05, 2010 11:37 am

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cigrainger
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby cigrainger » Wed May 05, 2010 11:38 am

YCrevolution wrote:I rarely feel this strongly about things, but I find out applicants failed to submit deterimental (and required) grades to the LSAC, I will report them. It's a clear LSAC policy. It's unfortunate that the application of the policy can perhaps create a GPA that is not reflective of a candidate, but it's there for a reason.


I agree. I would never do that, as much as LSAC is bending me over.

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YCrevolution
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby YCrevolution » Wed May 05, 2010 11:41 am

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d34d9823
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby d34d9823 » Wed May 05, 2010 11:45 am

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09042014
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Re: Another LSAC victim. Question.

Postby 09042014 » Wed May 05, 2010 11:46 am

I'm usually a big supporter of LSAT/GPA/URM being basically all that matters, but I think here, where your GPA is made up of a few courses taken in high school, you may be able to significantly out perform your GPA.

What is your UK gpa?

I'd apply to any school your LSAT is above their median. But you need to write a GPA addendum explaining exactly what happened. You application better be mother fucking flawless.

Once you are below a schools median GPA, it really doesn't hurt their USNEWs rankings, and once you are below their 25% GPA, it doesn't matter at all how low your GPA. But schools don't want idiots and slackers, however your gpa isn't really representative.

Now if your UK GPA is only so-so, you are going to have a hard time arguing that the GPA is not representative of your GPA.

If you get a 175+, I'd apply to the entire T14, including Yale. If you don't get into one, get a job and then apply ED to Northwestern the year after.




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