UC Irvine School of Law's 2nd class statistics is out Forum

[YCrevolution]

..

[Danteshek]

It was not my intention to be mean or condescending. I pointed out a few perceived inconsistencies in UCI's message to the legal community. It's really interesting that people got so riled up, and attacked me on a personal level.

IMO, UCI should tone down the pompous rhetoric about rank and focus on creating a culture that will create lawyers who, when they graduate, rather than capitalize on the school's rank, will put their community ahead of their pocketbooks. If UCI could pull that off, UCI would actually deserve national recognition. UCI would literally be the first top school to take public service seriously (maybe other than Berkeley). We really don't need yet another biglaw factory. This is an amazing opportunity. I just hope you guys don't screw it up.

But what do I know. I'm just a student at Southwestern Law School.

[ViP]

It was not my intention to be mean or condescending. I pointed out a few perceived inconsistencies in UCI's message to the legal community. It's really interesting that people got so riled up, and attacked me on a personal level.

IMO, UCI should tone down the pompous rhetoric about rank and focus on creating a culture that will create lawyers who, when they graduate, rather than capitalize on the school's rank, will put their community ahead of their pocketbooks. If UCI could pull that off, UCI would actually deserve national recognition. UCI would literally be the first top school to take public service seriously (maybe other than Berkeley). We really don't need yet another biglaw factory. This is an amazing opportunity. I just hope you guys don't screw it up.

But what do I know. I'm just a student at Southwestern Law School.

Totally agree. I'm just as irritated as you are to read such personal attacks and such immaturity. You seem like a very bright guy, but it's hard for me to take you seriously sometimes because of your air of conceit. I don't know if you care or not. Just thought I'd share.

I have to respectfully disagree with your assessment of UCI's tone. I honestly don't know why you're so bothered by Chemerinsky's constant praise of his school as a "top" school in the nation. When asked why he feels so strongly about his school's status as one of the nation's best, he invariably refers to 1) the quality of the students, 2) the quality of the faculty, and sometimes 3) the quality of the education, which he considers very unique.

He and others at UCI are very proud of these things, and why shouldn't they be? Attracting top students and top faculty happens to work in favor of the rankings, and the reality is that "top" students and "top" professors flock to "top" schools. Regardless of your mission as a program, it's exciting to have such quality in your community. Any school would be proud to boast such stats. This simply does not work counter to to a mission to produce great lawyers that will serve the community. And anyone that knows anything about Chemerinsky knows that the man is as sincere as they come when he speaks.

You're making assumptions based on your suspicions of UCI's intent. I'm telling you as someone that has spoken with Chemerinsky and the rest of the UCI administration that they're committed to serving the community and they're shamelessly (and rightfully) vocal in their pride in the program's top-notch quality.

[sooner]

I just caught up on this thread and thought I'd add comment about the scholarship money offered at UCI. I'm planning to go to UCI even though I was offered $30-120 K at other law schools. Reason is that I think I'll get a better education--and in the long run, that's what I care about. I am not so interested in my first job--if I'm good at what I do, opportunities will open up. I plan to work as a lawyer for a long time, and that means different jobs. I'm not going to law school simply as a free ride to employment. People who do that wind up being very unhappy, even though they're making money. Even a poorly paid lawyer is making more than most people in this country.

[SandyC877]

I just caught up on this thread and thought I'd add comment about the scholarship money offered at UCI. I'm planning to go to UCI even though I was offered $30-120 K at other law schools. Reason is that I think I'll get a better education--and in the long run, that's what I care about. I am not so interested in my first job--if I'm good at what I do, opportunities will open up. I plan to work as a lawyer for a long time, and that means different jobs. I'm not going to law school simply as a free ride to employment. People who do that wind up being very unhappy, even though they're making money. Even a poorly paid lawyer is making more than most people in this country.

x2. I currently have UCI over UCLA + USC with money. I may be an anomaly, but UCI seriously excites me with its new direction in curriculum, strength of the faculty, awesome location/weather, and the support from its communities. I feel like UCI will be much less stressful and enjoyable than any other law schools. And anyone who has met the deans in person will say that they absolutely fell in love with them. All these things matter to me as they make up not just my legal education, but quality of life I will have outside of studies.

As for the few nay sayers above, their argument is misguided and very much strawman.

[270910]

I just caught up on this thread and thought I'd add comment about the scholarship money offered at UCI. I'm planning to go to UCI even though I was offered $30-120 K at other law schools. Reason is that I think I'll get a better education--and in the long run, that's what I care about. I am not so interested in my first job--if I'm good at what I do, opportunities will open up. I plan to work as a lawyer for a long time, and that means different jobs. I'm not going to law school simply as a free ride to employment. People who do that wind up being very unhappy, even though they're making money. Even a poorly paid lawyer is making more than most people in this country.

x2. I currently have UCI over UCLA + USC with money. I may be an anomaly, but UCI seriously excites me with its new direction in curriculum, strength of the faculty, awesome location/weather, and the support from its communities. I feel like UCI will be much less stressful and enjoyable than any other law schools. And anyone who has met the deans in person will say that they absolutely fell in love with them. All these things matter to me as they make up not just my legal education, but quality of life I will have outside of studies.

As for the few nay sayers above, their argument is misguided and very much strawman.

Uh, guys? Law school isn't about education. You don't learn anything practical. It's about getting hazed, it's about proving yourself in irrational competition, it's about surviving. I realize that isn't what law school SHOULD be about, but it is.

And your first job is literally the most important conceivable thing. Don't be naive. The legal community is obsessed with prestige and pedigree, and it's all but impossible to distinguish yourself outside of the usual paths of big law / govt / prestigious PI / etc. and lateral into better work elsewhere.

You're making decisions and value judgments based on the way you WISH the legal industry worked, the way you assume it SHOULD work - not the realities of the situation. That's a hell of a lot more dangerous than the people who make the opposite mistake and assume their good school will get them a job without effort (often, they wind up correct).

[SandyC877]

Uh, guys? Law school isn't about education. You don't learn anything practical. It's about getting hazed, it's about proving yourself in irrational competition, it's about surviving. I realize that isn't what law school SHOULD be about, but it is.

And your first job is literally the most important conceivable thing. Don't be naive. The legal community is obsessed with prestige and pedigree, and it's all but impossible to distinguish yourself outside of the usual paths of big law / govt / prestigious PI / etc. and lateral into better work elsewhere.

You're making decisions and value judgments based on the way you WISH the legal industry worked, the way you assume it SHOULD work - not the realities of the situation. That's a hell of a lot more dangerous than the people who make the opposite mistake and assume their good school will get them a job without effort (often, they wind up correct).

That's how you see it and perhaps your view is one that is most perpetual and accurate representation of the current law school atmosphere. But it isn't the case for UC Irvine. It's a new school with a new approach in a new environment. There are no other law schools in the Orange County area (other than a tier 3 school). UCI is trying to build something different and special in a place that can plausibly work. They have a philosophy to reform the legal education, structured their curriculum that way, and put the money up to their mouths. I want to be a part of that, and I think UCI recognized that; hence they admitted me.

You speak as if you are head above me in "getting" it - the way law career works. No offense, but you don't have some special knowledge that I haven't considered. At least I considered all the the nays I can think of.

I concluded that UCI is a great fit for me, and I will be fine.

[b.gump81]

Uh, guys? Law school isn't about education. You don't learn anything practical. It's about getting hazed, it's about proving yourself in irrational competition, it's about surviving. I realize that isn't what law school SHOULD be about, but it is.

And your first job is literally the most important conceivable thing. Don't be naive. The legal community is obsessed with prestige and pedigree, and it's all but impossible to distinguish yourself outside of the usual paths of big law / govt / prestigious PI / etc. and lateral into better work elsewhere.

You're making decisions and value judgments based on the way you WISH the legal industry worked, the way you assume it SHOULD work - not the realities of the situation. That's a hell of a lot more dangerous than the people who make the opposite mistake and assume their good school will get them a job without effort (often, they wind up correct).

That's how you see it and perhaps your view is one that is most perpetual and accurate representation of the current law school atmosphere. But it isn't the case for UC Irvine. It's a new school with a new approach in a new environment. There are no other law schools in the Orange County area (other than a tier 3 school). UCI is trying to build something different and special in a place that can plausibly work. They have a philosophy to reform the legal education, structured their curriculum that way, and put the money up to their mouths. I want to be a part of that, and I think UCI recognized that; hence they admitted me.

You speak as if you are head above me in "getting" it - the way law career works. No offense, but you don't have some special knowledge that I haven't considered. At least I considered all the the nays I can think of.

I concluded that UCI is a great fit for me, and I will be fine.

chapman is tier 2 now

[bk1]

Uh, guys? Law school isn't about education. You don't learn anything practical. It's about getting hazed, it's about proving yourself in irrational competition, it's about surviving. I realize that isn't what law school SHOULD be about, but it is.

And your first job is literally the most important conceivable thing. Don't be naive. The legal community is obsessed with prestige and pedigree, and it's all but impossible to distinguish yourself outside of the usual paths of big law / govt / prestigious PI / etc. and lateral into better work elsewhere.

You're making decisions and value judgments based on the way you WISH the legal industry worked, the way you assume it SHOULD work - not the realities of the situation. That's a hell of a lot more dangerous than the people who make the opposite mistake and assume their good school will get them a job without effort (often, they wind up correct).

That's how you see it and perhaps your view is one that is most perpetual and accurate representation of the current law school atmosphere. But it isn't the case for UC Irvine. It's a new school with a new approach in a new environment. There are no other law schools in the Orange County area (other than a tier 3 school). UCI is trying to build something different and special in a place that can plausibly work. They have a philosophy to reform the legal education, structured their curriculum that way, and put the money up to their mouths. I want to be a part of that, and I think UCI recognized that; hence they admitted me.

You speak as if you are head above me in "getting" it - the way law career works. No offense, but you don't have some special knowledge that I haven't considered. At least I considered all the the nays I can think of.

I concluded that UCI is a great fit for me, and I will be fine.

chapman is tier 2 now

This changes everything.

[b.gump81]

Uh, guys? Law school isn't about education. You don't learn anything practical. It's about getting hazed, it's about proving yourself in irrational competition, it's about surviving. I realize that isn't what law school SHOULD be about, but it is.

And your first job is literally the most important conceivable thing. Don't be naive. The legal community is obsessed with prestige and pedigree, and it's all but impossible to distinguish yourself outside of the usual paths of big law / govt / prestigious PI / etc. and lateral into better work elsewhere.

You're making decisions and value judgments based on the way you WISH the legal industry worked, the way you assume it SHOULD work - not the realities of the situation. That's a hell of a lot more dangerous than the people who make the opposite mistake and assume their good school will get them a job without effort (often, they wind up correct).

That's how you see it and perhaps your view is one that is most perpetual and accurate representation of the current law school atmosphere. But it isn't the case for UC Irvine. It's a new school with a new approach in a new environment. There are no other law schools in the Orange County area (other than a tier 3 school). UCI is trying to build something different and special in a place that can plausibly work. They have a philosophy to reform the legal education, structured their curriculum that way, and put the money up to their mouths. I want to be a part of that, and I think UCI recognized that; hence they admitted me.

You speak as if you are head above me in "getting" it - the way law career works. No offense, but you don't have some special knowledge that I haven't considered. At least I considered all the the nays I can think of.

I concluded that UCI is a great fit for me, and I will be fine.

chapman is tier 2 now

This changes everything.

haha i was being facetious...just pointing out something has been messed up several times in this thread

[PDaddy]

Do they have to bring it up to a certain size? It seems like they could absolutely crush it in the rankings if they kept each 1L class to like 100 students.

UCI could start out top-30.

[catlawl]

Many posters are echoing the common complaint that the ABA is responsible for declining wages and rising unemployment in the legal profession because it continues to accredit new law schools. However, this criticism is misplaced; it should be directed toward the Department of Justice.

In 1995 the DOJ Antitrust Division filed suit against the ABA. As a consequence, the ABA was forced to settle the case with an antitrust consent decree, essentially stripping the organization of its ability to restrict the expansion of law school accreditation on the basis of protecting lawyers' economic interests. Federal government policy has left the ABA impotent, allowing law schools to proliferate across the country so long as the market deems them financially viable, irrespective of the negative economic consequences for lawyers.

Because the consent decree neutered the ABA, lawyers wishing to protect their financial interests have two options. First, they can lobby Congress to exempt the ABA from existing antitrust legislation. Second, they can sit idly by and allow the market to take its course. In this case, the price of legal services will continue to decrease until the proper economic equilibrium is reached (a situation in which consumers of legal services benefit while lawyers are harmed).

[Danteshek]

It doesn't surprise me that a UCI admit is so dismissive of Chapman. Of course, Western State and Whittier do not even need be alluded to.

[SandyC877]

It doesn't surprise me that a UCI admit is so dismissive of Chapman. Of course, Western State and Whittier do not even need be alluded to.

Blatant anti-UCI troll from Southwestern

[YCrevolution]

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[arhmcpo]

Uh, guys? Law school isn't about education. You don't learn anything practical. It's about getting hazed, it's about proving yourself in irrational competition, it's about surviving. I realize that isn't what law school SHOULD be about, but it is.

And your first job is literally the most important conceivable thing. Don't be naive. The legal community is obsessed with prestige and pedigree, and it's all but impossible to distinguish yourself outside of the usual paths of big law / govt / prestigious PI / etc. and lateral into better work elsewhere.

You're making decisions and value judgments based on the way you WISH the legal industry worked, the way you assume it SHOULD work - not the realities of the situation. That's a hell of a lot more dangerous than the people who make the opposite mistake and assume their good school will get them a job without effort (often, they wind up correct).

That's how you see it and perhaps your view is one that is most perpetual and accurate representation of the current law school atmosphere. But it isn't the case for UC Irvine. It's a new school with a new approach in a new environment. There are no other law schools in the Orange County area (other than a tier 3 school). UCI is trying to build something different and special in a place that can plausibly work. They have a philosophy to reform the legal education, structured their curriculum that way, and put the money up to their mouths. I want to be a part of that, and I think UCI recognized that; hence they admitted me.

You speak as if you are head above me in "getting" it - the way law career works. No offense, but you don't have some special knowledge that I haven't considered. At least I considered all the the nays I can think of.

I concluded that UCI is a great fit for me, and I will be fine.

That's because he is. He has actually participated, perhaps even excelled, in the thing you can only read about: law school. He is completely right; I highly doubt 0L's would try to talk about business school in such philosophical and false terms (i.e. "Its not about job prospects its about the unique education we can receive", umm hate to burst your bubble but WRONG); and law school is the same as business school in the sense it is vocational based and about the job you can get; largely due to the fact that the education you receive is errily similar everywhere and the amount of debt + 3 years lost salary you take on.

The "reform of the legal education" you speak of at UCI seems to mostly involve shuffling up 1L and 2L classes - if you think that is worthy of dismissing UCLA and USC with money then that is your well-educated 0L opinion, but don't pretend as though you have a better understanding of what law school is and is not, than someone like Disco - because you don't and you can't.

And don't give me the old "the faculty at UCI is extra-special super", because if you get into UCI you've gotten into other schools who guess what - have just as extra-special of faculty. What's unique and cool about UCI is in no particular order: the OC, Chemirinsky, and the cool/energy factor of starting a new law school from scratch.

[Mr. Matlock]

Uh, guys? Law school isn't about education. You don't learn anything practical. It's about getting hazed, it's about proving yourself in irrational competition, it's about surviving. I realize that isn't what law school SHOULD be about, but it is.

And your first job is literally the most important conceivable thing. Don't be naive. The legal community is obsessed with prestige and pedigree, and it's all but impossible to distinguish yourself outside of the usual paths of big law / govt / prestigious PI / etc. and lateral into better work elsewhere.

You're making decisions and value judgments based on the way you WISH the legal industry worked, the way you assume it SHOULD work - not the realities of the situation. That's a hell of a lot more dangerous than the people who make the opposite mistake and assume their good school will get them a job without effort (often, they wind up correct).

That's how you see it and perhaps your view is one that is most perpetual and accurate representation of the current law school atmosphere. But it isn't the case for UC Irvine. It's a new school with a new approach in a new environment. There are no other law schools in the Orange County area (other than a tier 3 school). UCI is trying to build something different and special in a place that can plausibly work. They have a philosophy to reform the legal education, structured their curriculum that way, and put the money up to their mouths. I want to be a part of that, and I think UCI recognized that; hence they admitted me.

You speak as if you are head above me in "getting" it - the way law career works. No offense, but you don't have some special knowledge that I haven't considered. At least I considered all the the nays I can think of.

I concluded that UCI is a great fit for me, and I will be fine.

That's because he is. He has actually participated, perhaps even excelled, in the thing you can only read about: law school. He is completely right; I highly doubt 0L's would try to talk about business school in such philosophical and false terms (i.e. "Its not about job prospects its about the unique education we can receive", umm hate to burst your bubble but WRONG); and law school is the same as business school in the sense it is vocational based and about the job you can get; largely due to the fact that the education you receive is errily similar everywhere and the amount of debt + 3 years lost salary you take on.

The "reform of the legal education" you speak of at UCI seems to mostly involve shuffling up 1L and 2L classes - if you think that is worthy of dismissing UCLA and USC with money then that is your well-educated 0L opinion, but don't pretend as though you have a better understanding of what law school is and is not, than someone like Disco - because you don't and you can't.

And don't give me the old "the faculty at UCI is extra-special super", because if you get into UCI you've gotten into other schools who guess what - have just as extra-special of faculty. What's unique and cool about UCI is in no particular order: the OC, Chemirinsky, and the cool/energy factor of starting a new law school from scratch.

BOOM goes the dynamite!!!!

[Borhas]

can you guys be more specific about the reformed educational model at UCI. I'm kinda interested.

Is it a more practical approach like W&L or what?

[mhernton]

To add to the bruhaha all ready brewing, I have an MBA from UCSD Rady School of Management. Rady was the last time that the UC Regents decided on a new professional school. I've written about this issue several time, and wrote to the webmaster at TLS. Rady and UCI Law are comparable. Dean Sullivan, Dean Chem counterpart at Duke years ago is the Dean at Rady. Rady made all the same promises that UCI is making but about the business school universe. Largely Rady had kept up their end of the bargain except one thing; business school rankings don't change over night and they don't change because you want them to. They change because the perception is that the program is putting out a high quality product. We won't know what UCI is doing for years, furthermore its joining an already crowded market in Southern California. Educational models are all well and good but professionals higher Harvard Grads because other Harvard grads have done incredible things. Until a UCI grad does something incredible or even noteworthy its just another law school. If you compare the numbers for incoming students to Rady they look remarkably similar to other noteworth business schools. GMAT means around 680, GPA means from undergrad around 3.75. The school is unknown nationally and barely known of in Southern California. UCI will be the same. If an employer in Orange county has the choice between hiring a UCI grad, UCLA grad, or USC grad, who do you think they will hire?? With the legal market what it is today, why take a chance on an unknown quantity?

I chose to go to Rady because the program focuses on high tech entrepreneurship. I wasn't concerned about rankings until the job I was promised after business fell through. Then the economy bottomed out. Not only was I competing with business school students from the top ten schools, but also with out of work professionals. The legal industry is in the same position as business. To all those considering UCI, I wish you luck, because my personal belief is that you have been mislead by a lot of hype and a great marketing campaign. Choosing UCI over UCLA is misguided, and I'm being as diplomatic as possible when I say that. Once your in the industry no one really cares where you came from. Get in is the issue...

[bk1]

To add to the bruhaha all ready brewing, I have an MBA from UCSD Rady School of Management. Rady was the last time that the UC Regents decided on a new professional school. I've written about this issue several time, and wrote to the webmaster at TLS. Rady and UCI Law are comparable. Dean Sullivan, Dean Chem counterpart at Duke years ago is the Dean at Rady. Rady made all the same promises that UCI is making but about the business school universe. Largely Rady had kept up their end of the bargain except one thing; business school rankings don't change over night and they don't change because you want them to. They change because the perception is that the program is putting out a high quality product. We won't know what UCI is doing for years, furthermore its joining an already crowded market in Southern California. Educational models are all well and good but professionals higher Harvard Grads because other Harvard grads have done incredible things. Until a UCI grad does something incredible or even noteworthy its just another law school. If you compare the numbers for incoming students to Rady they look remarkably similar to other noteworth business schools. GMAT means around 680, GPA means from undergrad around 3.75. The school is unknown nationally and barely known of in Southern California. UCI will be the same. If an employer in Orange county has the choice between hiring a UCI grad, UCLA grad, or USC grad, who do you think they will hire?? With the legal market what it is today, why take a chance on an unknown quantity?

I chose to go to Rady because the program focuses on high tech entrepreneurship. I wasn't concerned about rankings until the job I was promised after business fell through. Then the economy bottomed out. Not only was I competing with business school students from the top ten schools, but also with out of work professionals. The legal industry is in the same position as business. To all those considering UCI, I wish you luck, because my personal belief is that you have been mislead by a lot of hype and a great marketing campaign. Choosing UCI over UCLA is misguided, and I'm being as diplomatic as possible when I say that. Once your in the industry no one really cares where you came from. Get in is the issue...

I think this misses one key element, what the small class size and the intensity of the first few years can do for those classes. While down the road I do not know if this will be true, but the way it seems is that UCI is trying really fucking hard for the first few years, which includes getting their students jobs (like the 100% placement they touted for their first class). Due to their small size they can do this and I think it is worthy of consideration. I agree that USC/UCLA are going to be a better guarantee, but I think that is not where the comparison should lie. The comparison should be between UCI and Davis/Hastings in CA or Fordham/UIUC and other regional schools in their respective region.

I don't expect UCI to overtake UCLA/USC or be a better deal unless one is extremely debt averse and getting significantly more from UCI. But I think that, at least for its first few classes, there is that benefit of going to a place that is trying to place you rather than relying on their prestige/alums when UCI is considered versus other strong regional schools. Of course this benefit may fade in time, but I have the feeling it does exist for the moment.

[YCrevolution]

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[SaintClarence27]

Children, please behave.

If I have to post this again, some people are going to have to spend some quality time with the banhammer.

*quietly backs away in fear*

[Mr. Matlock]

Children, please behave.

If I have to post this again, some people are going to have to spend some quality time with the banhammer.

Oh yea tough guy? OH YEA???????

Wait a minute. What in the fuck do I care about UCI? I really don't. In fact, I pray that everyone finds some shred of happiness in this shit-hole we call life. Even the TLS douchebags. (You know who you are) Be it at a T14, T1, 2, 3, or 4, here's hoping everyone gets a taste of their dream!! Cheers everyone.

*Matlock whistles and leaves*

[SandyC877]

.

[SaintClarence27]

You are an idiot.

SOMEONE is getting the banhammer!