Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

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romothesavior
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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby romothesavior » Wed May 05, 2010 3:13 pm

newyorker88 wrote:
mb88 wrote:my point is that he who is without sin should cast the first stone.



And since you're not without sin you shouldn't cast stones at anyone throughout your life including yeshiva university.


One of Christ's worst teachings, FWIW.

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby newyorker88 » Wed May 05, 2010 3:16 pm

romothesavior wrote:
newyorker88 wrote:
mb88 wrote:my point is that he who is without sin should cast the first stone.



And since you're not without sin you shouldn't cast stones at anyone throughout your life including yeshiva university.


One of Christ's worst teachings, FWIW.


More like one of the most misunderstood teachings. People who've never read the bible constantly quote it with no context and distort the meaning. I'm just playing the same game mb88 is for argument's purposes.

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby BenJ » Wed May 05, 2010 4:20 pm

evilgenius wrote:
BenJ wrote:
evilgenius wrote:As someone that is openly gay, I actually don't find anything wrong with the statement. I mean, its not like it was false. Homosexuality is against jewish law. It's also against Catholic, Protestant, and Islamic law as well. I don't here anyone saying that they aren't going to attend Georgetown, Fordham, Notre Dame, or other universities because the Catholics are against homosexuality and abortion.


Georgetown and Fordham, at least, as well as BC, don't have their Presidents making statements like this. (Notre Dame, being CSC instead of Jesuit, is much less tolerant and has been antagonistic in the recent past.) You will also find regular criticism of Pepperdine, Southern Methodist, BYU, etc. The fact is that the Jesuits don't hold that being gay is sinful, so their universities are not hostile.

Compare this story at Fordham to the comparable story at Yeshiva/Cardozo.


I don't think Yeshiva was being hostile. They did let the event take place. And the article that you posted is a story about a fight for benefits that has been going on for several years. It also mentions that the reason that there was a fight is due to the beliefs of the Catholic Archdiocese and the President of Fordham University. And the President of Fordham University didn't make a statement supporting the LDA benefits.


Yeshiva is hostile. They disallow the existence of any LGBT student group on campus. (Not at Cardozo, but at Yeshiva.)

Maybe the Fordham article wasn't clear. The President of Fordham has been fighting the Archbishop to get equal benefits rights instated for years, and he finally got the Archbishop to cave. The entire university is explicitly opposed to the official church stance. (Generally, this is true of the Jesuits as a whole, and thus also of Georgetown and BC; don't speak from ignorance on the issue.)

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby hannah87 » Wed May 05, 2010 4:41 pm

BenJ wrote:Yeshiva is hostile. They disallow the existence of any LGBT student group on campus. (Not at Cardozo, but at Yeshiva.)


I think it's just Yeshiva College (undergrad) where LGBT clubs don't exist (and where the vast majority of students are orthodox Jews)...I believe they are allowed and running at Cardozo, Einstein, and many of their other graduate programs. I do obviously think that a group should be allowed at the undergrad if students want to start it but understand why it would seem paradoxical to the torah-based mission of the undergraduate school. I don't think it's meant to be hostile.

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby BenJ » Wed May 05, 2010 5:09 pm

hannah87 wrote:
BenJ wrote:Yeshiva is hostile. They disallow the existence of any LGBT student group on campus. (Not at Cardozo, but at Yeshiva.)


I think it's just Yeshiva College (undergrad) where LGBT clubs don't exist (and where the vast majority of students are orthodox Jews)...I believe they are allowed and running at Cardozo, Einstein, and many of their other graduate programs. I do obviously think that a group should be allowed at the undergrad if students want to start it but understand why it would seem paradoxical to the torah-based mission of the undergraduate school. I don't think it's meant to be hostile.


It's inherently hostile to ban them; that the religion/branch of the religion itself is hostile doesn't forgive it. "Holy" books are just books. But, yes, you're right, it's only Yeshiva proper, which is why I said that. (I have no idea about any of their grad programs save Cardozo, so I kept silent there.)

There are Catholic colleges that ban LGBT student groups, and they're hostile, too. But such schools tend to be small and poorly known. The College of Mount Saint Vincent, conveniently for comparison also in NYC, is one example. Yeshiva is comparable to such schools; it is not comparable to a Jesuit Catholic school.

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby Aeroplane » Wed May 05, 2010 6:12 pm

BenJ wrote:It's inherently hostile to ban them; that the religion/branch of the religion itself is hostile doesn't forgive it. "Holy" books are just books. But, yes, you're right, it's only Yeshiva proper, which is why I said that. (I have no idea about any of their grad programs save Cardozo, so I kept silent there.)

There are Catholic colleges that ban LGBT student groups, and they're hostile, too. But such schools tend to be small and poorly known. The College of Mount Saint Vincent, conveniently for comparison also in NYC, is one example. Yeshiva is comparable to such schools; it is not comparable to a Jesuit Catholic school.

YU is not just a college that happens to have lot of Orthodox Jews or be affiliated with a religious group like Fordham or Georgetown. Its mission is to be a religious institution for a specific denomination that defines itself by following Jewish law, it's split into two single-sex schools and all YU undergrads have to study religious topics in addition to secular studies. They don't have a Catholic club either, and probably wouldn't allow one.

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby chicoalto0649 » Wed May 05, 2010 6:28 pm

Aeroplane wrote:
BenJ wrote:It's inherently hostile to ban them; that the religion/branch of the religion itself is hostile doesn't forgive it. "Holy" books are just books. But, yes, you're right, it's only Yeshiva proper, which is why I said that. (I have no idea about any of their grad programs save Cardozo, so I kept silent there.)

There are Catholic colleges that ban LGBT student groups, and they're hostile, too. But such schools tend to be small and poorly known. The College of Mount Saint Vincent, conveniently for comparison also in NYC, is one example. Yeshiva is comparable to such schools; it is not comparable to a Jesuit Catholic school.

YU is not just a college that happens to have lot of Orthodox Jews or be affiliated with a religious group like Fordham or Georgetown. Its mission is to be a religious institution for a specific denomination that defines itself by following Jewish law, it's split into two single-sex schools and all YU undergrads have to study religious topics in addition to secular studies. They don't have a Catholic club either, and probably wouldn't allow one.


Will donate $10 to start a religious institution that follows/promotes only Sharia law. Yeshiva's new rival!

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby BenJ » Wed May 05, 2010 7:10 pm

Aeroplane wrote:
BenJ wrote:It's inherently hostile to ban them; that the religion/branch of the religion itself is hostile doesn't forgive it. "Holy" books are just books. But, yes, you're right, it's only Yeshiva proper, which is why I said that. (I have no idea about any of their grad programs save Cardozo, so I kept silent there.)

There are Catholic colleges that ban LGBT student groups, and they're hostile, too. But such schools tend to be small and poorly known. The College of Mount Saint Vincent, conveniently for comparison also in NYC, is one example. Yeshiva is comparable to such schools; it is not comparable to a Jesuit Catholic school.

YU is not just a college that happens to have lot of Orthodox Jews or be affiliated with a religious group like Fordham or Georgetown. Its mission is to be a religious institution for a specific denomination that defines itself by following Jewish law, it's split into two single-sex schools and all YU undergrads have to study religious topics in addition to secular studies. They don't have a Catholic club either, and probably wouldn't allow one.


That's missing the point: They're still hostile. I'm not demanding that they change their policies, just pointing out that those policies are vile, regardless of whether they have some religious justification (which is no justification at all).

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby a.shoshana » Wed May 05, 2010 7:26 pm

BenJ wrote:
Aeroplane wrote:
BenJ wrote:It's inherently hostile to ban them; that the religion/branch of the religion itself is hostile doesn't forgive it. "Holy" books are just books. But, yes, you're right, it's only Yeshiva proper, which is why I said that. (I have no idea about any of their grad programs save Cardozo, so I kept silent there.)

There are Catholic colleges that ban LGBT student groups, and they're hostile, too. But such schools tend to be small and poorly known. The College of Mount Saint Vincent, conveniently for comparison also in NYC, is one example. Yeshiva is comparable to such schools; it is not comparable to a Jesuit Catholic school.

YU is not just a college that happens to have lot of Orthodox Jews or be affiliated with a religious group like Fordham or Georgetown. Its mission is to be a religious institution for a specific denomination that defines itself by following Jewish law, it's split into two single-sex schools and all YU undergrads have to study religious topics in addition to secular studies. They don't have a Catholic club either, and probably wouldn't allow one.


That's missing the point: They're still hostile. I'm not demanding that they change their policies, just pointing out that those policies are vile, regardless of whether they have some religious justification (which is no justification at all).


This is ridiculous. Yeshiva University is a orthodox religious institution (read: not comparable to fordham) which orthodox jewish students choose to attend. any gay student that chooses to go to yeshiva university knows full well what the orthodox jewish position on homosexuality is. the torah has said the same stuff for 4,000 years... if you don't like it, pick a different college.

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby a.shoshana » Wed May 05, 2010 7:31 pm

dhg5004 wrote:and here Cardozo was one of my number 1 choices. Labeling myself gay this is a serious deterrent in my once profound interest in the university. Despite its law school being 'secular' its parent college Yeshiva is quite the opposite.

I agree, I'd never want to put my tuition dollars toward a discriminatory institution.

How disappointing. And to think it's the year 2010 AD not 2010 BC. jeeeez

Cracks me up when minority groups (jews/blacks in particular) are hostile against the gay population when they were once harshly discriminated against themselves.


Oh, and about your statement... right. Orthodox rabbis refusing to marry gay people is EXACTLY the same thing as being stuck in concentration camps.

As a religious jew, I'm disgusted and offended by your analogy. Jews do not persecute anyone for their lifestyle choices. We were killed for ours. NOT the same thing.

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby Tautology » Wed May 05, 2010 7:40 pm

a.shoshana wrote:This is ridiculous. Yeshiva University is a orthodox religious institution (read: not comparable to fordham) which orthodox jewish students choose to attend. any gay student that chooses to go to yeshiva university knows full well what the orthodox jewish position on homosexuality is. the torah has said the same stuff for 4,000 years... if you don't like it, pick a different college.


You do not understand BenJ's point. The position is reprehensible whether or not anyone is adversely affected. Bigots are bigoted, whether or not people are forced to endure their bigotry. BenJ is condemning the bigotry shown by President Joel, and by extension the bigotry of that particular belief. The fact that the belief is religious is irrelevant; the fact that President Joel is an individual merely stating a fact is irrelevant; the fact that Yeshiva is a private university that students choose to attend is irrelevant. Some of us just like to express our disgust when bigotry rears its ugly head, regardless of the source or possible consequences.

a.shoshana wrote:Oh, and about your statement... right. Orthodox rabbis refusing to marry gay people is EXACTLY the same thing as being stuck in concentration camps.


Cool straw man; he didn't even mention the Holocaust.

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby romothesavior » Wed May 05, 2010 7:44 pm

Tautology wrote:
a.shoshana wrote:This is ridiculous. Yeshiva University is a orthodox religious institution (read: not comparable to fordham) which orthodox jewish students choose to attend. any gay student that chooses to go to yeshiva university knows full well what the orthodox jewish position on homosexuality is. the torah has said the same stuff for 4,000 years... if you don't like it, pick a different college.


You do not understand BenJ's point. The position is reprehensible whether or not anyone is adversely affected. Bigots are bigoted, whether or not people are forced to endure their bigotry. BenJ is condemning the bigotry shown by President Joel, and by extension the bigotry of that particular belief. The fact that the belief is religious is irrelevant; the fact that President Joel is an individual merely stating a fact is irrelevant; the fact that Yeshiva is a private university that students choose to attend is irrelevant. Some of us just like to express our disgust when bigotry rears its ugly head, regardless of the source or possible consequences.

a.shoshana wrote:Oh, and about your statement... right. Orthodox rabbis refusing to marry gay people is EXACTLY the same thing as being stuck in concentration camps.


Cool straw man; he didn't even mention the Holocaust.


+1. A.shoshana, bigoted is not the same thing as oppressive. Yeshiva is not oppressing anybody. Gays are free to choose to attend other schools. But that doesn't make Yeshiva's stance less bigoted (and neither does the fact that it is rooted in religion).

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby a.shoshana » Wed May 05, 2010 7:47 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Tautology wrote:
a.shoshana wrote:This is ridiculous. Yeshiva University is a orthodox religious institution (read: not comparable to fordham) which orthodox jewish students choose to attend. any gay student that chooses to go to yeshiva university knows full well what the orthodox jewish position on homosexuality is. the torah has said the same stuff for 4,000 years... if you don't like it, pick a different college.


You do not understand BenJ's point. The position is reprehensible whether or not anyone is adversely affected. Bigots are bigoted, whether or not people are forced to endure their bigotry. BenJ is condemning the bigotry shown by President Joel, and by extension the bigotry of that particular belief. The fact that the belief is religious is irrelevant; the fact that President Joel is an individual merely stating a fact is irrelevant; the fact that Yeshiva is a private university that students choose to attend is irrelevant. Some of us just like to express our disgust when bigotry rears its ugly head, regardless of the source or possible consequences.

a.shoshana wrote:Oh, and about your statement... right. Orthodox rabbis refusing to marry gay people is EXACTLY the same thing as being stuck in concentration camps.


Cool straw man; he didn't even mention the Holocaust.


+1. A.shoshana, bigoted is not the same thing as oppressive. Yeshiva is not oppressing anybody. Gays are free to choose to attend other schools. But that doesn't make Yeshiva's stance less bigoted (and neither does the fact that it is rooted in religion).


Fine, so you think it's bigoted. That's one thing. But he claimed that we shouldn't be discriminatory because we were discriminated against. Don't compare apples and oranges, or tell anyone why they do/don't have a right to opinions.

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby Tautology » Wed May 05, 2010 7:48 pm

romothesavior wrote:+1. A.shoshana, bigoted is not the same thing as oppressive. Yeshiva is not oppressing anybody. Gays are free to choose to attend other schools. But that doesn't make Yeshiva's stance less bigoted (and neither does the fact that it is rooted in religion).


If only we had pointed this out earlier in this very thread. Oh wait . . .

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby Aeroplane » Wed May 05, 2010 7:49 pm

BenJ wrote:
Aeroplane wrote:
BenJ wrote:It's inherently hostile to ban them; that the religion/branch of the religion itself is hostile doesn't forgive it. "Holy" books are just books. But, yes, you're right, it's only Yeshiva proper, which is why I said that. (I have no idea about any of their grad programs save Cardozo, so I kept silent there.)

There are Catholic colleges that ban LGBT student groups, and they're hostile, too. But such schools tend to be small and poorly known. The College of Mount Saint Vincent, conveniently for comparison also in NYC, is one example. Yeshiva is comparable to such schools; it is not comparable to a Jesuit Catholic school.

YU is not just a college that happens to have lot of Orthodox Jews or be affiliated with a religious group like Fordham or Georgetown. Its mission is to be a religious institution for a specific denomination that defines itself by following Jewish law, it's split into two single-sex schools and all YU undergrads have to study religious topics in addition to secular studies. They don't have a Catholic club either, and probably wouldn't allow one.


That's missing the point: They're still hostile. I'm not demanding that they change their policies, just pointing out that those policies are vile, regardless of whether they have some religious justification (which is no justification at all).
Is the absence of a Catholic club vile too? Hostile to Catholics perhaps? I guess it could be viewed that way. I guess my point is that the absence of an LGBT club is not a result of targeted hatred towards gays that is only subsequently "justified" by religion, but rather just one part of a huge framework of a gazilllion prohibitions on conduct, many of which are quite technical and detailed. Prohibited stuff includes: Jesus-worship, eating pork, mixing certain cloth fibers, and lots of other things that most Americans find good, or at least unobjectionable. It may not make a difference to your opinion, but I wanted to put it out there.

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby a.shoshana » Wed May 05, 2010 7:53 pm

Is the absence of a Catholic club vile too? Hostile to Catholics perhaps? I guess it could be viewed that way. I guess my point is that the absence of an LGBT club is not a result of targeted hatred towards gays that is only subsequently "justified" by religion, but rather just one part of a huge framework of a gazilllion prohibitions on conduct, many of which are quite technical and detailed. Prohibited stuff includes: Jesus-worship, eating pork, mixing certain cloth fibers, and lots of other things that most Americans find good, or at least unobjectionable. It may not make a difference to your opinion, but I wanted to put it out there.


+1. You also can't bring pepperoni pizza into YU. Is that bigoted? Against the huge number of people in this country who have a right to choose to eat pepperoni? No, for some reason none of you have a problem with that religiously justified view.

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby romothesavior » Wed May 05, 2010 7:55 pm

a.shoshana wrote:+1. You also can't bring pepperoni pizza into YU. Is that bigoted? Against the huge number of people in this country who have a right to choose to eat pepperoni? No, for some reason none of you have a problem with that religiously justified view.


Big difference between the classes of people "pepperoni pizza eaters" and "gays." Also a big difference between pizza preferences and your natural predisposition to people of the same sex. If you can't understand that, then law school may give you fits.

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby Tautology » Wed May 05, 2010 7:57 pm

a.shoshana wrote:Fine, so you think it's bigoted. That's one thing. But he claimed that we shouldn't be discriminatory because we were discriminated against. Don't compare apples and oranges, or tell anyone why they do/don't have a right to opinions.


Again, you are taking criticism and interpreting it as a proposition to infringe your/someone else's rights. dhg5004 commented on the irony that populations who have themselves faced discrimination are still willing to inflict it on others. Clearly, dhg5004 thinks that those populations should be more sensitive to other groups facing discrimination. None of that suggests the ridiculous claim that dhg5004 thinks that you have no right to your opinion, or that Orthodox Jews have no right to their opinion. It is criticism, learn to take it and, if you are so inclined, respond to the arguments presented. Of course, just to be crystal clear, you have every right to continue to whine about your "rights" every time someone criticizes you.

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby a.shoshana » Wed May 05, 2010 8:02 pm

romothesavior wrote:Big difference between the classes of people "pepperoni pizza eaters" and "gays." Also a big difference between pizza preferences and your natural predisposition to people of the same sex. If you can't understand that, then law school may give you fits.


Nah, I think law school and I will be just fine.

You, however, might get frustrated when you find out that religious people can express their oh-so-bigoted religious views, as well as condone homosexuality in their private institutions, and there's nothing you can do about it. Law school is about upholding and practicing the law of the united states, not about fighting all the "hate" and "bigotry" in the world.

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby romothesavior » Wed May 05, 2010 8:04 pm

a.shoshana wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Big difference between the classes of people "pepperoni pizza eaters" and "gays." Also a big difference between pizza preferences and your natural predisposition to people of the same sex. If you can't understand that, then law school may give you fits.


Nah, I think law school and I will be just fine.

You, however, might get frustrated when you find out that religious people can express their oh-so-bigoted religious views, as well as condone homosexuality in their private institutions, and there's nothing you can do about it. Law school is about upholding and practicing the law of the united states, not about fighting all the "hate" and "bigotry" in the world.


I think you mean condemn, chief.

And fighting hate and practicing the law are not mutually exclusive, and I don't just mean PI work. I can work big law or corporate law and still oppose religious bigots on my own time.

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby a.shoshana » Wed May 05, 2010 8:05 pm

Tautology wrote:
a.shoshana wrote:Fine, so you think it's bigoted. That's one thing. But he claimed that we shouldn't be discriminatory because we were discriminated against. Don't compare apples and oranges, or tell anyone why they do/don't have a right to opinions.


Again, you are taking criticism and interpreting it as a proposition to infringe your/someone else's rights. dhg5004 commented on the irony that populations who have themselves faced discrimination are still willing to inflict it on others. Clearly, dhg5004 thinks that those populations should be more sensitive to other groups facing discrimination. None of that suggests the ridiculous claim that dhg5004 thinks that you have no right to your opinion, or that Orthodox Jews have no right to their opinion. It is criticism, learn to take it and, if you are so inclined, respond to the arguments presented. Of course, just to be crystal clear, you have every right to continue to whine about your "rights" every time someone criticizes you.


Fine. By your argument, he was just commenting on the irony, not implying that something should be done about it.

I didn't quite interpret it that way... agree to disagree.

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby a.shoshana » Wed May 05, 2010 8:07 pm

romothesavior wrote:
I think you mean condemn, chief.

And fighting hate and practicing the law are not mutually exclusive, and I don't just mean PI work. I can work big law or corporate law and still oppose religious bigots on my own time.


touche on condone/condemn. was thinking too quickly.

but i didn't say anything about what you could/couldn't do on your own time... we were discussing whether law school would give us fits or not. right?

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby Tautology » Wed May 05, 2010 8:07 pm

a.shoshana wrote:Fine. By your argument, he was just commenting on the irony, not implying that something should be done about it.

I didn't quite interpret it that way... agree to disagree.


So long as we are disagreeing because I am right and you are wrong. :wink:

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby romothesavior » Wed May 05, 2010 8:08 pm

a.shoshana wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
I think you mean condemn, chief.

And fighting hate and practicing the law are not mutually exclusive, and I don't just mean PI work. I can work big law or corporate law and still oppose religious bigots on my own time.


touche on condone/condemn. was thinking too quickly.

but i didn't say anything about what you could/couldn't do on your own time... we were discussing whether law school would give us fits or not. right?


The difference is that I'm not drawing absurd analogies between pizza eaters and gays.

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby a.shoshana » Wed May 05, 2010 8:08 pm

Tautology wrote:
a.shoshana wrote:Fine. By your argument, he was just commenting on the irony, not implying that something should be done about it.

I didn't quite interpret it that way... agree to disagree.


So long as we are disagreeing because I am right and you are wrong. :wink:


obviously. :wink:




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