Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

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MSUPHL
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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby MSUPHL » Tue May 04, 2010 12:00 am

guys the key here is notice how the Pres said JEWISH law. It is clear based on the text that JEWISH law does not allow Jews to act on homosexual behavior. Anyone is free to leave the Jewish religion at any time; Jews do not commit be-headings. Speaking to one Orthodox Rabbi in my personal experience, he said (I paraphrase) "I dont care who marries who as long as all marriages in my shul are between one man and one woman." Basically, I asked him about gay marriage and he said that marriage is not an issue to be "legal" or "illegal" but should be regulated only by those choosing to get married and the institution that is doing the marrying. An orthodox jew cant be mad if some reform temple is marrying two men, and conversely, the reform jew cant be made if the orthodox shul refuses to marry two men.

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Knock
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Re: Cardozo....Unequivocally anti-gay

Postby Knock » Tue May 04, 2010 12:03 am

dakatz wrote:Not that I like to get into these discussions, but situations like these really make me ashamed to be Jewish. Given the hatred and discrimination my Jewish ancestors went through for centuries, you would think we would be a bit more open-minded and tolerant of others, after feeling the pain of such intolerance against us.


This is not representative at all of American Jews. American Jews are overwhelmingly progressive. It is sad that some people could feel that way towards any group. I just wanted to note that the views held by Cardozo-Yeshiva are not shared but by a small minority of American Jews...
Last edited by Knock on Tue May 04, 2010 12:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

Tautology
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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby Tautology » Tue May 04, 2010 12:05 am

MSUPHL wrote:An orthodox jew cant be mad if some reform temple is marrying two men, and conversely, the reform jew cant be made if the orthodox shul refuses to marry two men.


They can very well be mad; if someone thinks what someone else is doing is wrong, they should be mad. Whether or not I have to listen to them I can dislike the practices of anyone, as can both the Reform Jew and the Orthodox Jew.

forty-two
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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby forty-two » Tue May 04, 2010 12:19 am

gbpackerbacker wrote:This is not representative at all of American Jews. American Jews are overwhelmingly progressive. It is sad that some people could feel that way towards any group. I just wanted to note that the views held by Cardozo-Yeshiva are not shared but by a small minority of American Jews...


+1000000000000000

bigben
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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby bigben » Tue May 04, 2010 12:57 am

Tautology wrote:It is not legal to discriminate based on sexual orientation, even for a private university.

Levin vs. Yeshiva


This is true in a minority of states. Some think it leads to funny results that infringe on freedom of association, for example in Washington.

Again, this is an issue separate from whether it is legal to make the statement President Joel made (of course it is legal).


Yes, of course it is. But as I linked above, this is not necessarily the case in Britain. You seem to suggest that the possibility of the US imitating Britain in this regard is absurd. That makes me happy.

MSUPHL
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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby MSUPHL » Tue May 04, 2010 1:10 am

Tautology wrote:
MSUPHL wrote:An orthodox jew cant be mad if some reform temple is marrying two men, and conversely, the reform jew cant be made if the orthodox shul refuses to marry two men.


They can very well be mad; if someone thinks what someone else is doing is wrong, they should be mad. Whether or not I have to listen to them I can dislike the practices of anyone, as can both the Reform Jew and the Orthodox Jew.



I disagree. If someone is doing something that does not affect you directly or harm anyone else significantly, you ought not be mad. And no I wouldnt buy the hypothetical argument that a small sect of people are hurting others by not allowing them to marry at their institutional if they do want those people to be married there (just like 2 non jews cant get married at an orthodox shul).

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romothesavior
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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby romothesavior » Tue May 04, 2010 1:18 am

MSUPHL wrote:
Tautology wrote:
MSUPHL wrote:An orthodox jew cant be mad if some reform temple is marrying two men, and conversely, the reform jew cant be made if the orthodox shul refuses to marry two men.


They can very well be mad; if someone thinks what someone else is doing is wrong, they should be mad. Whether or not I have to listen to them I can dislike the practices of anyone, as can both the Reform Jew and the Orthodox Jew.



I disagree. If someone is doing something that does not affect you directly or harm anyone else significantly, you ought not be mad. And no I wouldnt buy the hypothetical argument that a small sect of people are hurting others by not allowing them to marry at their institutional if they do want those people to be married there (just like 2 non jews cant get married at an orthodox shul).


I actually kind of agree with you. If someone is truly committed to the idea that other people can do as they please, then I think that's fine. For example, my mom is personally opposed to abortions and would never have one, but she supports other women's right to have them and she votes accordingly. Unfortunately, most people who are against gay marriage and against gay rights aren't saying, "I'll support your right to do it, but I don't want to be a part of it." Instead, most religious people vote as they believe and impose their worldview on the rest of society, and thus, people are harmed.

I cannot stand when people say that religion is a personal choice, but then allow their religion to pervade our society. On a personal level, I have no problem with religion, and I really have no problem with this rabbi dude that you talked about or his position against gay marriage. What I have a problem with is people who use their religion as an excuse to vote against granting people equality and dignity. And if I'm going to hold the Christians accountable, I'm going to hold the Jews accountable too.

Tautology
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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby Tautology » Tue May 04, 2010 1:26 am

bigben wrote:
Tautology wrote:Again, this is an issue separate from whether it is legal to make the statement President Joel made (of course it is legal).


Yes, of course it is. But as I linked above, this is not necessarily the case in Britain. You seem to suggest that the possibility of the US imitating Britain in this regard is absurd. That makes me happy.


I certainly hope it's absurd.

MSUPHL wrote:I disagree. If someone is doing something that does not affect you directly or harm anyone else significantly, you ought not be mad. And no I wouldnt buy the hypothetical argument that a small sect of people are hurting others by not allowing them to marry at their institutional if they do want those people to be married there (just like 2 non jews cant get married at an orthodox shul).


Tell gay children growing up in Orthodox Jewish families/communities that no one is significantly harmed by their position. Be told by people you love that who you are is an abomination before God and don't get upset because "you don't have to share their religion." Hate, even the "lesser" forms of hate, is hurtful and consequently upsetting. To not be upset by these things, even if you are not directly affected, shows either a lack of understanding or a lack of empathy on your part.

But don't even think about getting mad at me for saying that!

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mb88
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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby mb88 » Tue May 04, 2010 1:27 am

Interesting.

There are a lot of people in here throwing stones at the Jews for their stupid beliefs, yet I'd like to remind everyone that the majority of you also hold stupid beliefs. I'll stop short of naming them (*cough*jewzombie*cough*) so that I don't offend anybody's bronze-age sensibilities, but my point is that he who is without sin should cast the first stone.

Tautology
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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby Tautology » Tue May 04, 2010 1:33 am

mb88 wrote:Interesting.

There are a lot of people in here throwing stones at the Jews for their stupid beliefs, yet I'd like to remind everyone that the majority of you also hold stupid beliefs. I'll stop short of naming them (*cough*jewzombie*cough*) so that I don't offend anybody's bronze-age sensibilities, but my point is that he who is without sin should cast the first stone.


Before more Jewish TLSers get worried, I think we should note that specific Jewish beliefs, held by specific Jewish people, are being pummeled with stones. I don't think anyone is implying that all Jews share these beliefs or that all Jews are somehow tainted by Mr. Joel and his ilk.

I may have stupid beliefs (I don't hold the one you "stopped short of naming"), but the whole "he who is without sin . . ." thing is really stupid. Of course we are all flawed, that doesn't mean that all arguments we ever make are invalid (is that an ad hominem?). When next you find a belief I hold with which you disagree I welcome your loud, and hopefully thoughtful, condemnation.

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby LjakW » Tue May 04, 2010 7:44 am

hannah87 wrote: Basically, they should have allowed the event and issued a similar statement alongside it.

If you read the article, you'd know this is exactly what they did.

They had the event and then they made the statement (which was factually correct according to Jewish law, certainly as followed at Yeshiva College).

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby waitingforanswers » Tue May 04, 2010 8:22 am

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hannah87
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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby hannah87 » Tue May 04, 2010 8:50 am

LjakW wrote:
hannah87 wrote: Basically, they should have allowed the event and issued a similar statement alongside it.

If you read the article, you'd know this is exactly what they did.

They had the event and then they made the statement (which was factually correct according to Jewish law, certainly as followed at Yeshiva College).


yeah, i got that right after i posted my comment. thanks.

and i agree with you and have less of an issue with the whole thing now.

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dhg5004
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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby dhg5004 » Tue May 04, 2010 8:55 am

and here Cardozo was one of my number 1 choices. Labeling myself gay this is a serious deterrent in my once profound interest in the university. Despite its law school being 'secular' its parent college Yeshiva is quite the opposite.

I agree, I'd never want to put my tuition dollars toward a discriminatory institution.

How disappointing. And to think it's the year 2010 AD not 2010 BC. jeeeez

Cracks me up when minority groups (jews/blacks in particular) are hostile against the gay population when they were once harshly discriminated against themselves.

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hannah87
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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby hannah87 » Tue May 04, 2010 9:01 am

dhg5004 wrote:and here Cardozo was one of my number 1 choices. Labeling myself gay this is a serious deterrent in my once profound interest in the university. Despite its law school being 'secular' its parent college Yeshiva is quite the opposite.

I agree, I'd never want to put my tuition dollars toward a discriminatory institution.

How disappointing. And to think it's the year 2010 AD not 2010 BC. jeeeez

Cracks me up when minority groups (jews/blacks in particular) are hostile against the gay population when they were once harshly discriminated against themselves.


Jews are not "hostile" toward gays...the most orthodox (very small minority) may disapprove of their lifestyle choice but I don't think that even they are hostile... and certainly not in any way similar to the way Jews are/have been discriminated against.

edit: i'm sorry you feel that way, though. it must be disappointing to get so turned off by a school you'd been so interested in :(

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dhg5004
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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby dhg5004 » Tue May 04, 2010 9:19 am

hannah87 wrote:
dhg5004 wrote:and here Cardozo was one of my number 1 choices. Labeling myself gay this is a serious deterrent in my once profound interest in the university. Despite its law school being 'secular' its parent college Yeshiva is quite the opposite.

I agree, I'd never want to put my tuition dollars toward a discriminatory institution.

How disappointing. And to think it's the year 2010 AD not 2010 BC. jeeeez

Cracks me up when minority groups (jews/blacks in particular) are hostile against the gay population when they were once harshly discriminated against themselves.


Jews are not "hostile" toward gays...the most orthodox (very small minority) may disapprove of their lifestyle choice but I don't think that even they are hostile... and certainly not in any way similar to the way Jews are/have been discriminated against.

edit: i'm sorry you feel that way, though. it must be disappointing to get so turned off by a school you'd been so interested in :(


I apologize. I meant in this case Yeshiva as an institution seems to be hostile; 'jews' representing Yeshiva. Used them interchangeably here.

But yes. It is disappointing. :(

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby OnWisconsin » Tue May 04, 2010 9:40 am

romothesavior wrote:
MSUPHL wrote:
Tautology wrote:
MSUPHL wrote:An orthodox jew cant be mad if some reform temple is marrying two men, and conversely, the reform jew cant be made if the orthodox shul refuses to marry two men.


They can very well be mad; if someone thinks what someone else is doing is wrong, they should be mad. Whether or not I have to listen to them I can dislike the practices of anyone, as can both the Reform Jew and the Orthodox Jew.



I disagree. If someone is doing something that does not affect you directly or harm anyone else significantly, you ought not be mad. And no I wouldnt buy the hypothetical argument that a small sect of people are hurting others by not allowing them to marry at their institutional if they do want those people to be married there (just like 2 non jews cant get married at an orthodox shul).


I actually kind of agree with you. If someone is truly committed to the idea that other people can do as they please, then I think that's fine. For example, my mom is personally opposed to abortions and would never have one, but she supports other women's right to have them and she votes accordingly. Unfortunately, most people who are against gay marriage and against gay rights aren't saying, "I'll support your right to do it, but I don't want to be a part of it." Instead, most religious people vote as they believe and impose their worldview on the rest of society, and thus, people are harmed.

I cannot stand when people say that religion is a personal choice, but then allow their religion to pervade our society. On a personal level, I have no problem with religion, and I really have no problem with this rabbi dude that you talked about or his position against gay marriage. What I have a problem with is people who use their religion as an excuse to vote against granting people equality and dignity. And if I'm going to hold the Christians accountable, I'm going to hold the Jews accountable too.




I like your answers; they seem to be most closely associated with a classically liberal vein of thought.
That being said I have a question about one of your comments.


“I cannot stand when people say that religion is a personal choice, but then allow their religion to pervade our society.”


What if we were to turn that statement around? A personal choice, but then demand that it pervade religion?

Sort of a quandary and I’d like to hear your two cents.

LjakW
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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby LjakW » Tue May 04, 2010 10:06 am

dhg5004 wrote:How disappointing. And to think it's the year 2010 AD not 2010 BC. jeeeez

Cracks me up when minority groups (jews/blacks in particular) are hostile against the gay population when they were once harshly discriminated against themselves.

I find it rather ironic that you use the AD/BC terminology here.

Also, Yeshiva is not hostile to the gay population. This isn't Iran or Saudi Arabia; there is nowhere in the world (not even Israel) that enforces Jewish law. The college was just telling people that if you, personally, want to keep to the strictures of Orthodox Jewish law, you should know that it is not permitted to engage in that activity. They had to make this statement in light of the fact that they just allowed a panel discussion with gay alumni and students that might have seemed to imply that this activity was permitted according to Orthodox Jewish law.

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby evilgenius » Tue May 04, 2010 10:51 am

As someone that is openly gay, I actually don't find anything wrong with the statement. I mean, its not like it was false. Homosexuality is against jewish law. It's also against Catholic, Protestant, and Islamic law as well. I don't here anyone saying that they aren't going to attend Georgetown, Fordham, Notre Dame, or other universities because the Catholics are against homosexuality and abortion.

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby somewhatwayward » Wed May 05, 2010 11:47 am

mb88 wrote:my point is that he who is without sin should cast the first stone.


i'm pretty sure the university cast the first stone in this case.

does anyone know whether yeshiva gets money from the state or the federal government?

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby BenJ » Wed May 05, 2010 12:10 pm

evilgenius wrote:As someone that is openly gay, I actually don't find anything wrong with the statement. I mean, its not like it was false. Homosexuality is against jewish law. It's also against Catholic, Protestant, and Islamic law as well. I don't here anyone saying that they aren't going to attend Georgetown, Fordham, Notre Dame, or other universities because the Catholics are against homosexuality and abortion.


Georgetown and Fordham, at least, as well as BC, don't have their Presidents making statements like this. (Notre Dame, being CSC instead of Jesuit, is much less tolerant and has been antagonistic in the recent past.) You will also find regular criticism of Pepperdine, Southern Methodist, BYU, etc. The fact is that the Jesuits don't hold that being gay is sinful, so their universities are not hostile.

Compare this story at Fordham to the comparable story at Yeshiva/Cardozo.

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newyorker88
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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby newyorker88 » Wed May 05, 2010 1:18 pm

evilgenius wrote:As someone that is openly gay, I actually don't find anything wrong with the statement. I mean, its not like it was false. Homosexuality is against jewish law. It's also against Catholic, Protestant, and Islamic law as well. .


+1 it was a mere statement of fact.

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Borhas
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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby Borhas » Wed May 05, 2010 1:21 pm

mb88 wrote:but my point is that he who is without sin should cast the first stone.


Image

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evilgenius
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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby evilgenius » Wed May 05, 2010 1:51 pm

BenJ wrote:
evilgenius wrote:As someone that is openly gay, I actually don't find anything wrong with the statement. I mean, its not like it was false. Homosexuality is against jewish law. It's also against Catholic, Protestant, and Islamic law as well. I don't here anyone saying that they aren't going to attend Georgetown, Fordham, Notre Dame, or other universities because the Catholics are against homosexuality and abortion.


Georgetown and Fordham, at least, as well as BC, don't have their Presidents making statements like this. (Notre Dame, being CSC instead of Jesuit, is much less tolerant and has been antagonistic in the recent past.) You will also find regular criticism of Pepperdine, Southern Methodist, BYU, etc. The fact is that the Jesuits don't hold that being gay is sinful, so their universities are not hostile.

Compare this story at Fordham to the comparable story at Yeshiva/Cardozo.


I don't think Yeshiva was being hostile. They did let the event take place. And the article that you posted is a story about a fight for benefits that has been going on for several years. It also mentions that the reason that there was a fight is due to the beliefs of the Catholic Archdiocese and the President of Fordham University. And the President of Fordham University didn't make a statement supporting the LDA benefits.

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newyorker88
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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby newyorker88 » Wed May 05, 2010 3:10 pm

mb88 wrote:my point is that he who is without sin should cast the first stone.



And since you're not without sin you shouldn't cast stones at anyone throughout your life including yeshiva university.




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