Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

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chicoalto0649
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Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby chicoalto0649 » Mon May 03, 2010 9:38 pm

--LinkRemoved--

It saddens me that a school in the 21st century can still uphold blatantly discriminatory policies.

Here are the highlights:

Student group tries to form a panel on "Being Gay In The Orthodox World." Yeshiva President Richard Joel issues the following statement:

In light of recent events, we want to reiterate the absolute prohibition of homosexual relationships according to Jewish law. Of course, as was indicated in a message issued by our Roshei Yeshiva, those struggling with this issue require due sensitivity, although such sensitivity cannot be allowed to erode the Torah’s unequivocal condemnation of such activity. Sadly, as we have discovered, public gatherings addressing these issues, even when well-intentioned, could send the wrong message and obscure the Torah’s requirements of halakhic behavior and due modesty.


I know, I know, so there was a student backlash and the President backtracked on his statements but the damage is already done. Seriously, maybe people will take the school more seriously if they stop living in 2000 B.C.E. and worrying about "halakhic" behavior and due modesty.

Here's a rainbow for President Richard Joel. Maybe he should hug one...

Image
Last edited by chicoalto0649 on Mon May 03, 2010 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Aeroplane
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Re: Cardozo....Unequivocally anti-gay

Postby Aeroplane » Mon May 03, 2010 9:44 pm

My understanding is that the panel was put on by students of the undergrad school which is religious, and not the law school which is secular. The head of the law school issued a separate statement.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Cardozo....Unequivocally anti-gay

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon May 03, 2010 9:46 pm

Re: Joel's original statement: I don't know what to say. Sheer horror comes to mind, though.

dakatz
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Re: Cardozo....Unequivocally anti-gay

Postby dakatz » Mon May 03, 2010 9:46 pm

Not that I like to get into these discussions, but situations like these really make me ashamed to be Jewish. Given the hatred and discrimination my Jewish ancestors went through for centuries, you would think we would be a bit more open-minded and tolerant of others, after feeling the pain of such intolerance against us.

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chicoalto0649
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Re: Cardozo....Unequivocally anti-gay

Postby chicoalto0649 » Mon May 03, 2010 9:46 pm

Aeroplane wrote:My understanding is that the panel was put on by students of the undergrad school which is religious, and not the law school which is secular. The head of the law school issued a separate statement.


In light of recent events, we want to reiterate the absolute prohibition of homosexual relationships according to Jewish law.


This kind of says alot...imagine a school putting a prohibition on interracial relationships....

If that isn't discriminatory ....

LjakW
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Re: Cardozo....Unequivocally anti-gay

Postby LjakW » Mon May 03, 2010 9:47 pm

Good job reading, chico.... Yeshiva College is anti-homosexual sex (and tepid on gays), Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law is fine with both.

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Re: Cardozo....Unequivocally anti-gay

Postby BenJ » Mon May 03, 2010 9:50 pm

Yeshiva and Cardozo have an awkward relationship on this point. Working on LGBT for Bloomberg last summer, we held meeting with a lot of LGBT student organizations at schools around NYC. Yeshiva was actively hostile towards us trying to get in contact with LGBT student representatives, but they did direct us to ask at Cardozo, which has a great deal of independence from Yeshiva as a whole. Still, I don't think I would be comfortable having my tuition payment go toward Yeshiva University despite Cardozo's relative independence.

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Re: Cardozo....Unequivocally anti-gay

Postby LjakW » Mon May 03, 2010 9:57 pm

chicoalto0649 wrote:
In light of recent events, we want to reiterate the absolute prohibition of homosexual relationships according to Jewish law.


This kind of says alot...imagine a school putting a prohibition on interracial relationships....

If that isn't discriminatory ....

It's more like "Don't ask, don't tell"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_ask,_don%27t_tell

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romothesavior
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Re: Cardozo....Unequivocally anti-gay

Postby romothesavior » Mon May 03, 2010 10:03 pm

LjakW wrote:
chicoalto0649 wrote:
In light of recent events, we want to reiterate the absolute prohibition of homosexual relationships according to Jewish law.


This kind of says alot...imagine a school putting a prohibition on interracial relationships....

If that isn't discriminatory ....

It's more like "Don't ask, don't tell"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_ask,_don%27t_tell


Don't ask, Don't tell = Discriminatory

HTH

Tautology
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Re: Cardozo....Unequivocally anti-gay

Postby Tautology » Mon May 03, 2010 10:03 pm

I think the OP has given Cardozo a very unfair treatment. The University's President may be anti-gay, but when the Dean of the law school puts out the following statement I find the use of the word "unequivocally" entirely inappropriate.

Cardozo is a diverse law school that welcomes people of all religions, races, backgrounds and sexual orientations. We are proud of our community and value the many contributions of our past and present gay and lesbian students, faculty, administrators, and staff to building our Law School and to our nationally recognized success. Cardozo has an active LGBT student organization and sponsors a range of academic activities focusing on the legal questions raised by issues relating to sexual orientation, including faculty scholarship, courses, public panels and speakers. The Law School also has programs to support the careers of LGBT students and alumni who may face issues of discrimination in the job market.

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chicoalto0649
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Re: Cardozo....Unequivocally anti-gay

Postby chicoalto0649 » Mon May 03, 2010 10:07 pm

Tautology wrote:I think the OP has given Cardozo a very unfair treatment. The University's President may be anti-gay, but when the Dean of the law school puts out the following statement I find the use of the word "unequivocally" entirely inappropriate.

Cardozo is a diverse law school that welcomes people of all religions, races, backgrounds and sexual orientations. We are proud of our community and value the many contributions of our past and present gay and lesbian students, faculty, administrators, and staff to building our Law School and to our nationally recognized success. Cardozo has an active LGBT student organization and sponsors a range of academic activities focusing on the legal questions raised by issues relating to sexual orientation, including faculty scholarship, courses, public panels and speakers. The Law School also has programs to support the careers of LGBT students and alumni who may face issues of discrimination in the job market.


Thread title fixed in order to be more specific.

Still....Cardozo falls under the Yeshiva umbrella, therefore I will go out on a limb and say the prohibition on gay relations still holds for the law students.

Also, that statement does not acknowledge that there is a prohibition on gay relations between Yeshiva students...

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bernie shmegma
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Re: Cardozo....Unequivocally anti-gay

Postby bernie shmegma » Mon May 03, 2010 10:20 pm

chicoalto0649 wrote:
Tautology wrote:I think the OP has given Cardozo a very unfair treatment. The University's President may be anti-gay, but when the Dean of the law school puts out the following statement I find the use of the word "unequivocally" entirely inappropriate.

Cardozo is a diverse law school that welcomes people of all religions, races, backgrounds and sexual orientations. We are proud of our community and value the many contributions of our past and present gay and lesbian students, faculty, administrators, and staff to building our Law School and to our nationally recognized success. Cardozo has an active LGBT student organization and sponsors a range of academic activities focusing on the legal questions raised by issues relating to sexual orientation, including faculty scholarship, courses, public panels and speakers. The Law School also has programs to support the careers of LGBT students and alumni who may face issues of discrimination in the job market.


Thread title fixed in order to be more specific.

Still....Cardozo falls under the Yeshiva umbrella, therefore I will go out on a limb and say the prohibition on gay relations still holds for the law students.

Also, that statement does not acknowledge that there is a prohibition on gay relations between Yeshiva students...


Firstly, Yeshiva is a private institution separate from the state. The civil rights lingo is great and all for practical purposes as well trying to make a point, but careful how far you think its legitimacy goes when it comes to such institutions. Secondly, it is a private institution that practices and exercises its freedom of religion, including a heritage of natural rights. Thirdly, the law school is very different from the undergrad institution. Go on the law school's website and start listening to orientation videos and interviews with students, then come back and tell us you think gays are being discriminated against.

Tautology
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Re: Cardozo....Unequivocally anti-gay

Postby Tautology » Mon May 03, 2010 10:25 pm

chicoalto0649 wrote:
Thread title fixed in order to be more specific.

Still....Cardozo falls under the Yeshiva umbrella, therefore I will go out on a limb and say the prohibition on gay relations still holds for the law students.

Also, that statement does not acknowledge that there is a prohibition on gay relations between Yeshiva students...


I appreciate the changes to the OP and title, but I still think you're reading this wrong. The President of the university described an "absolute prohibition of homosexual relationships according to Jewish law." Although such a statement is clearly discriminatory and, in my opinion, reprehensible, I do not think it implies a prohibition at the school. In my extensive two minutes of research on the university website, I could find neither such a prohibition or language specifically denying such a prohibition. On the law school's website however, I was able to find the following as part of its non-discrimination policy:

. . . Cardozo's policy is to ensure that its programs are administered in a manner that does not improperly discriminate on the basis of any individual's or group's actual or perceived race, sex, religion, creed, color, national or ethnic origin, ancestry, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, age, disability, veteran or disabled veteran status, marital or civil union or domestic partner status, citizenship status, or other categories protected by law, or in retaliation for opposition to any practices proscribed by this policy.


I think the law school very clearly does not prohibit such relationships, nor does it prohibit the existence of a GLBT student group.

The university has a shitty bigoted president, but I don't think that affects the law school except for the embarrassment of association.

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby Bankhead » Mon May 03, 2010 10:27 pm

I don't see the problem. Yeshiva is a Jewish private university. Jewish faith is not accepting of homosexuals. The President reminded the student body of this fact. I think the statement articulates this well.

If you have a problem with it, then simply don't attend a religious institution. There is no point in watering down Jewish principles to include everyone.

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby hannah87 » Mon May 03, 2010 10:33 pm

I don't necessarily find Mr. Joel's comments offensive. I do find it very offensive and unfair that the students were not allowed to have the panel. I don't think that the statement that the Torah disallows homosexuality is the issue. It's an orthodox university and that is the widespread, accepted orthodox interpretation of the text. It is when that is used as an excuse to deny students a harmless educational and relevant gathering that it becomes a problem.

And to reflect some of the above posters: it is sad that the University is discriminatory in this way, but it must be said that students who choose to attend know what the school's values are before they enroll. They make no attempt to hide them.

...and I agree that this should not badly affect Cardozo's reputation.
Last edited by hannah87 on Mon May 03, 2010 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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TTH
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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby TTH » Mon May 03, 2010 10:35 pm

Yeshiva's positions on homosexuality are distasteful, but understandable. However, I cannot abide their position on pork.

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby Bankhead » Mon May 03, 2010 10:35 pm

hannah87 wrote:I don't necessarily find Mr. Joel's comments offensive. I do find it very offensive and unfair that the students were not allowed to have the panel. I don't think that the statement that the Torah disallows homosexuality is the issue. It's an orthodox university and that is the widespread, accepted orthodox interpretation of the text. It is when that is used as an excuse to deny students a harmless educational and relevant gathering that it becomes a problem.


Why would they give conduct they don't agree with a stage? In a way, that can be viewed as condoning it. It's a private school. This is orthodox Judaism. It's a very strict religion. It's not for everyone. Cardozo is quite far removed from Yeshiva, culturally, by the way. I think that is contributing to a lot of the confusion on this thread.

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby Tautology » Mon May 03, 2010 10:42 pm

hannah87 wrote:I don't necessarily find Mr. Joel's comments offensive. I do find it very offensive and unfair that the students were not allowed to have the panel. I don't think that the statement that the Torah disallows homosexuality is the issue. It's an orthodox university and that is the widespread, accepted orthodox interpretation of the text. It is when that is used as an excuse to deny students a harmless educational and relevant gathering that it becomes a problem.


From President Joel's statement:

In light of recent events, we want to reiterate the absolute prohibition of homosexual relationships according to Jewish law. Of course, as was indicated in a message issued by our Roshei Yeshiva, those struggling with this issue require due sensitivity, although such sensitivity cannot be allowed to erode the Torah's unequivocal condemnation of such activity.


This statement clearly does more than simply point out orthodox interpretation of the Torah, it encourages students to follow that interpretation. That is very clearly offensive to those of us not 100 years behind the times.

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby im_blue » Mon May 03, 2010 10:43 pm

Bankhead wrote:I don't see the problem. Yeshiva is a Jewish private university. Jewish faith is not accepting of homosexuals. The President reminded the student body of this fact. I think the statement articulates this well.

If you have a problem with it, then simply don't attend a religious institution. There is no point in watering down Jewish principles to include everyone.

+1. When in Rome, do as the Romans do, or GTFO!

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby hannah87 » Mon May 03, 2010 10:44 pm

Bankhead wrote:
hannah87 wrote:I don't necessarily find Mr. Joel's comments offensive. I do find it very offensive and unfair that the students were not allowed to have the panel. I don't think that the statement that the Torah disallows homosexuality is the issue. It's an orthodox university and that is the widespread, accepted orthodox interpretation of the text. It is when that is used as an excuse to deny students a harmless educational and relevant gathering that it becomes a problem.


Why would they give conduct they don't agree with a stage? In a way, that can be viewed as condoning it. It's a private school. This is orthodox Judaism. It's a very strict religion. It's not for everyone. Cardozo is quite far removed from Yeshiva, culturally, by the way. I think that is contributing to a lot of the confusion on this thread.


Trust me, I know how strict it is. I went to a yeshiva high school. I think that they could have spun the event in a way to demonstrate support and understanding of an issue that clearly exists in the community, whether they condone it or not. Basically, they should have allowed the event and issued a similar statement alongside it.

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby Tautology » Mon May 03, 2010 10:45 pm

im_blue wrote:
Bankhead wrote:I don't see the problem. Yeshiva is a Jewish private university. Jewish faith is not accepting of homosexuals. The President reminded the student body of this fact. I think the statement articulates this well.

If you have a problem with it, then simply don't attend a religious institution. There is no point in watering down Jewish principles to include everyone.

+1. When in Rome, do as the Romans do, or GTFO!


I am not in Rome, and choose to condemn what the Romans are doing. I see nothing wrong with expressing my disgust with Caesar's statements.

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby romothesavior » Mon May 03, 2010 10:45 pm

Bankhead wrote:I don't see the problem. Yeshiva is a Jewish private university. Jewish faith is not accepting of homosexuals. The President reminded the student body of this fact. I think the statement articulates this well.

If you have a problem with it, then simply don't attend a religious institution. There is no point in watering down Jewish principles to include everyone.


I actually agree with this. I am not trying to say that this university does not have the authority to prohibit gays from forming a group. I am not trying to say that the university cannot have a policy opposing gay unions or gay relationships. I don't think the OP is trying to argue that either. The university is a private, religious school and they can have these types of policies if they want to.

However, I can acknowledge their authority to have these policies and still oppose these policies. I acknowledge that the KKK, the Republican party, Christian zealots, etc. have the right to their views, but I still have no qualms about criticizing them for it. No different here.

If Yeshiva wants to discriminate gays, they are allowed to do so. But I am with the OP in saying that they are bigoted, backwards, religious nutters for doing so.

PS. As noted above, this doesn't apply to the LS. The LS sounds like they are pretty open to the homosexual community, unlike the undergraduate institution.

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby dakatz » Mon May 03, 2010 10:48 pm

I will make sure to get a bit more active with regard to this cause in the Jewish community. We speak so much of how hate and intolerance led to such terrible events as the Holocaust, yet we allow such appalling discrimination to continue. Aren't we supposed to learn from the past? I will gladly try and stir up some dust in the local Orthodox community.

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby hannah87 » Mon May 03, 2010 10:50 pm

Tautology wrote:
In light of recent events, we want to reiterate the absolute prohibition of homosexual relationships according to Jewish law. Of course, as was indicated in a message issued by our Roshei Yeshiva, those struggling with this issue require due sensitivity, although such sensitivity cannot be allowed to erode the Torah's unequivocal condemnation of such activity.


This statement clearly does more than simply point out orthodox interpretation of the Torah, it encourages students to follow that interpretation. That is very clearly offensive to those of us not 100 years behind the times.


I agree that the wording here is unnecessarily strong and can be interpreted as hateful, but (as much as I disagree with discriminating against homosexuals) I still understand the school's desire to adhere to halacha and don't find it unfair for the university president to remind his students of the school's stance on the issue.

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Re: Yeshiva University....Unequivocally anti-gay...Cardozo....??

Postby bigben » Mon May 03, 2010 11:00 pm

I am shocked, SHOCKED, to hear that this person expressed the tenets of their religion at this religious university.

We should learn something from England--to the stockades with him!

http://volokh.com/2010/05/02/street-pre ... -is-a-sin/
Last edited by bigben on Mon May 03, 2010 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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