JD/MBA is the backdoor way to law school.

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Veyron
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Re: JD/MBA is the backdoor way to law school.

Postby Veyron » Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:45 am

If you're accomplished enough to get into Kellog, you probably can get a legal job lined up even from the bottom of the class.

r6_philly
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Re: JD/MBA is the backdoor way to law school.

Postby r6_philly » Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:00 am

Veyron wrote:If you're accomplished enough to get into Kellog, you probably can get a legal job lined up even from the bottom of the class.


How's Kellog compared to Wharton?

I was steered toward AJD/Kellog. If b school really is more marketable than law then I may seriously consider that. I am applying to AJD anyway since it's one year less schooling.

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chadwick218
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Re: JD/MBA is the backdoor way to law school.

Postby chadwick218 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:02 am

nice-and-cool wrote:Especially, for NU.

I know of a person who scored in the 150s on the LSAT (you can say he's failed at it.) and took the GMAT, scoring a low 700s, which is equivalent to prob 160-something on the LSAT. He applied to NU/Kellogg and got accepted. Considering you gotta have something like 170 or 171 to get into NU law, you can say this is a bargain and truly a backdoor way to the top-tired law school.

Consider it.

I scored much higher on the GMAT but didn't give it a try because I thought it would be ridiculous and unrealistic if I got into law school only with a GMAT score. Sometimes ridiculous things happen in the world. Now I realized.


But he had other credentials to get into Kellogg, which most people applying to law school don't.

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chadwick218
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Re: JD/MBA is the backdoor way to law school.

Postby chadwick218 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:04 am

lawschoollll wrote:Can you backdoor into Wharton/Kellogg just by doing well 1L and applying for the dual degree?


As a 2L at NU, I can't speak for Wharton, but the law school experience really doesn't make a difference for Kellogg. I tried last year. I was accepted into Chicago Booth, but WL and then rejected from Kellogg. I'll be applying to Kellogg again this year.

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chadwick218
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Re: JD/MBA is the backdoor way to law school.

Postby chadwick218 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:06 am

FWIW, I have heard from friends currently doing the JD/MBA at Cornell that the MBA program was very easy to get into as 1Ls once they enrolled at the lawschool. The downside is that Cornell's JD/MBA is the traditional four-year variety.

op-ti
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Re: JD/MBA is the backdoor way to law school.

Postby op-ti » Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:10 am

chadwick218 wrote:FWIW, I have heard from friends currently doing the JD/MBA at Cornell that the MBA program was very easy to get into as 1Ls once they enrolled at the lawschool. The downside is that Cornell's JD/MBA is the traditional four-year variety.


Cornell has just started a 3 yr JD/MBA:
http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/admissions/degrees/joint_degree.cfm

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chadwick218
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Re: JD/MBA is the backdoor way to law school.

Postby chadwick218 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:13 am

op-ti wrote:
chadwick218 wrote:FWIW, I have heard from friends currently doing the JD/MBA at Cornell that the MBA program was very easy to get into as 1Ls once they enrolled at the lawschool. The downside is that Cornell's JD/MBA is the traditional four-year variety.


Cornell has just started a 3 yr JD/MBA:
http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/admissions/degrees/joint_degree.cfm


Thank you for pointing this out. FWIW, I would have taken Cornell JD/MBA over NU JD (w/ the hopes of being admitted into Kellogg as a 1L) had this program been available two years ago when I was applying.

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Re: JD/MBA is the backdoor way to law school.

Postby anstud06 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:28 am

I just got confirmation from Darden (UVA) that LSAT alone is enough to apply there for (MBA alone or JD/MBA). I'm wondering if a student who can get a full scholarship from UVA law can also get them to negotiate a 3 year JD/MBA program customized to that student.

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Veyron
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Re: JD/MBA is the backdoor way to law school.

Postby Veyron » Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:26 pm

r6_philly wrote:
Veyron wrote:If you're accomplished enough to get into Kellog, you probably can get a legal job lined up even from the bottom of the class.


How's Kellog compared to Wharton?

I was steered toward AJD/Kellog. If b school really is more marketable than law then I may seriously consider that. I am applying to AJD anyway since it's one year less schooling.


Its no Wharton obviously but its still pretty good. Kinda like the difference between Chicago and Stanford for law you might say.

JD is more marketable on its own. Most JD/MBAs at Penn go into law. Its only, if you have done well enough in buisness to get admitted, you probably have enough connections and networking skills to get a job that way.

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Re: JD/MBA is the backdoor way to law school.

Postby hellojd » Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:40 pm

Veyron wrote: Most JD/MBAs at Penn go into law. Its only, if you have done well enough in buisness to get admitted, you probably have enough connections and networking skills to get a job that way.


Where are you getting this from? Not arguing, just curious since I'm strongly considering the JD/MBA program.

I find it unexpected, since I would have thought Wharton is the stronger half of the program.

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Re: JD/MBA is the backdoor way to law school.

Postby bdubs » Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:54 pm

hellojd wrote:
Veyron wrote: Most JD/MBAs at Penn go into law. Its only, if you have done well enough in buisness to get admitted, you probably have enough connections and networking skills to get a job that way.


Where are you getting this from? Not arguing, just curious since I'm strongly considering the JD/MBA program.

I find it unexpected, since I would have thought Wharton is the stronger half of the program.


I don't think Penn has published statistics on its JD/MBA grads, but Northwestern has. Kellogg is generally regarded as leading the program and as the stronger of the schools but most of the grads go into big law.

http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/jdm ... tstats.htm

I think the primary reason is that many business positions require very little legal knowledge, whereas many legal positions can benefit greatly from business knowledge.

I am applying to both programs and intend to go into biglaw to practice antitrust law.

For Penn specifically, very few MBA candidates want to go out of their way to take the LSAT unless they are interested in applying to law schools more generally. Kellogg probably gets far more applications from speculative MBAs who don't know what they ultimately want to do.

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Re: JD/MBA is the backdoor way to law school.

Postby r6_philly » Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:59 pm

Maybe because I interface with more Wharton guys than Penn Law guys (since you guys are so exclusive) I get a feeling that Wharton should be the stronger of the two in terms of career prospects. Law students are always complaining about career prospects and Wharton people just party all the time...

You are right about the existing WE though. I feel like getting a job with only a JD shouldn't be too difficult. But since schools are pushing joint degrees, and I do like interdisciplinary studies, I should consider a joint degree. I think the MBA curriculum should give me skills that compliment the JD and my background. But maybe I will just go for a cert instead if the school name is strong enough like Wharton.

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Re: JD/MBA is the backdoor way to law school.

Postby r6_philly » Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:03 pm

bdubs wrote:
hellojd wrote:
Veyron wrote: Most JD/MBAs at Penn go into law. Its only, if you have done well enough in buisness to get admitted, you probably have enough connections and networking skills to get a job that way.


Where are you getting this from? Not arguing, just curious since I'm strongly considering the JD/MBA program.

I find it unexpected, since I would have thought Wharton is the stronger half of the program.


I don't think Penn has published statistics on its JD/MBA grads, but Northwestern has. Kellogg is generally regarded as leading the program and as the stronger of the schools but most of the grads go into big law.

http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/jdm ... tstats.htm

I think the primary reason is that many business positions require very little legal knowledge, whereas many legal positions can benefit greatly from business knowledge.

I am applying to both programs and intend to go into biglaw to practice antitrust law.

For Penn specifically, very few MBA candidates want to go out of their way to take the LSAT unless they are interested in applying to law schools more generally. Kellogg probably gets far more applications from speculative MBAs who don't know what they ultimately want to do.


Thanks for the link. Do they have salary stats?

Slightly off topic, but not quite: do JD/MBA grads with extensive WE get higher starting salaries? When looking through detailed salary data I always see the max amount being quite a bit higher than the median. How, and how likely can one obtain one of those say $200k + starting salary?

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Re: JD/MBA is the backdoor way to law school.

Postby bdubs » Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:16 pm

Veyron wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
Veyron wrote:If you're accomplished enough to get into Kellog, you probably can get a legal job lined up even from the bottom of the class.


How's Kellog compared to Wharton?

I was steered toward AJD/Kellog. If b school really is more marketable than law then I may seriously consider that. I am applying to AJD anyway since it's one year less schooling.


Its no Wharton obviously but its still pretty good. Kinda like the difference between Chicago and Stanford for law you might say.

JD is more marketable on its own. Most JD/MBAs at Penn go into law. Its only, if you have done well enough in buisness to get admitted, you probably have enough connections and networking skills to get a job that way.


I would disagree, I think they both have strong suits. Kellogg is often ranked above Wharton in published rankings (USNWR, Business Week, FT, WSJ) and has faired better through the downturn than Wharton has. That is not to say Wharton isn't incredibly strong, it just has a different focus. Wharton is known for being more rigorous quantitatively than Kellogg and for being very traditional. Kellogg is seen as more innovative, has more varied teaching methods and is better known for marketing.

As a JD who plans to practice it's not really clear which of these programs has a clear edge. The alumni networks for both are very strong and can offer great connections.

The only time I would say one has a definite edge over the other is if you are a transactional person and want to do M&A or other finance related law, then Wharton is the clear favorite.

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Re: JD/MBA is the backdoor way to law school.

Postby chadwick218 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:17 pm

Historically, the JD/MBA program at NU has placed the majority of folks into biglaw. The past couple of years have really been an anamoly though. Of the 7 JD/MBAs in my section, only 1 participated in OCI. The rest have little interest in going into biglaw.

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Re: JD/MBA is the backdoor way to law school.

Postby bdubs » Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:21 pm

r6_philly wrote:
bdubs wrote:
hellojd wrote:
Veyron wrote: Most JD/MBAs at Penn go into law. Its only, if you have done well enough in buisness to get admitted, you probably have enough connections and networking skills to get a job that way.


Where are you getting this from? Not arguing, just curious since I'm strongly considering the JD/MBA program.

I find it unexpected, since I would have thought Wharton is the stronger half of the program.


I don't think Penn has published statistics on its JD/MBA grads, but Northwestern has. Kellogg is generally regarded as leading the program and as the stronger of the schools but most of the grads go into big law.

http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/jdm ... tstats.htm

I think the primary reason is that many business positions require very little legal knowledge, whereas many legal positions can benefit greatly from business knowledge.

I am applying to both programs and intend to go into biglaw to practice antitrust law.

For Penn specifically, very few MBA candidates want to go out of their way to take the LSAT unless they are interested in applying to law schools more generally. Kellogg probably gets far more applications from speculative MBAs who don't know what they ultimately want to do.


Thanks for the link. Do they have salary stats?

Slightly off topic, but not quite: do JD/MBA grads with extensive WE get higher starting salaries? When looking through detailed salary data I always see the max amount being quite a bit higher than the median. How, and how likely can one obtain one of those say $200k + starting salary?


I don't think they post specific salary stats. The classes are quite small (20-30) so giving ranges would probably out specific people. WE plays into salaries in business far more than in law. If you come out to work at a law firm you will get paid the same lockstep salary as everyone else, but depending on your firm you may get an MBA signing bonus (see link below). The $200k+ salaries you are looking at are probably people in banking who have substantial experience (in banking).

http://blog.veritasprep.com/2009/02/pro ... ances.html

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Re: JD/MBA is the backdoor way to law school.

Postby op-ti » Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:35 pm

I've worked for the last 2+ years as a legal assistant (in litigation) at a V10. I am pretty darn certain that litigation aint for me.

I have been thinking of a JD/MBA--just as a precautionary measure to make certain that I don’t in fact get stuck in litigation. Plus, I was a history major and have no business exp.

Question: Will the JD/MBA assure corporate law kinda work? Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

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Re: JD/MBA is the backdoor way to law school.

Postby bdubs » Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:40 pm

op-ti wrote:I've worked for the last 2+ years as a legal assistant (in litigation) at a V10. I am pretty darn certain that litigation aint for me.

I have been thinking of a JD/MBA--just as a precautionary measure to make certain that I don’t in fact get stuck in litigation. Plus, I was a history major and have no business exp.

Question: Will the JD/MBA assure corporate law kinda work? Or am I barking up the wrong tree?


1) Which programs are you interested in? You will be hard pressed to get into Kellogg/Wharton with that experience.
2) No, I would focus on going to the best school that you can, do as well as you can, and then interview at firms which primarily do transactional/corporate work.

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Re: JD/MBA is the backdoor way to law school.

Postby op-ti » Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:42 pm

bdubs wrote:1) Which programs are you interested in? You will be hard pressed to get into Kellogg/Wharton with that experience.
2) No, I would focus on going to the best school that you can, do as well as you can, and then interview at firms which primarily do transactional/corporate work.


I am interested in Cornell's JD/MBA program...never thought about Kellogg/Wharton (they would laugh if I were to apply to them).

Planning to take a lot of business related classes while at law school. Will that help?

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Re: JD/MBA is the backdoor way to law school.

Postby bdubs » Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:27 pm

op-ti wrote:
bdubs wrote:1) Which programs are you interested in? You will be hard pressed to get into Kellogg/Wharton with that experience.
2) No, I would focus on going to the best school that you can, do as well as you can, and then interview at firms which primarily do transactional/corporate work.


I am interested in Cornell's JD/MBA program...never thought about Kellogg/Wharton (they would laugh if I were to apply to them).

Planning to take a lot of business related classes while at law school. Will that help?


They won't laugh at you if you apply. If you spin your application and experiences correctly you may even be able to get in. MBA programs want people who have leadership experience, a good conceptual understanding of business, and understand why they want an MBA. If you can convey each of those things cogently in an application you will have a good shot.

The Johnson School is certainly less competitive than Kellogg and Wharton. If you do well on your GMATs (both quant and verbal) and have a strong application for Cornell Law you will probably stand a good chance of getting in.

Keep in mind that each of these programs have higher tuition and usually require more time (either in a summer semester or an extra year). If you aren't really sure you should probably spend a good amount of time researching before you apply.

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Re: JD/MBA is the backdoor way to law school.

Postby nphsbuckeye » Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:05 pm

chadwick218 wrote:FWIW, I have heard from friends currently doing the JD/MBA at Cornell that the MBA program was very easy to get into as 1Ls once they enrolled at the lawschool. The downside is that Cornell's JD/MBA is the traditional four-year variety.

How easy? The old "score this on the GMAT and you're in" deal?
bdubs wrote:I would disagree, I think they both have strong suits. Kellogg is often ranked above Wharton in published rankings (USNWR, Business Week, FT, WSJ) and has faired better through the downturn than Wharton has. That is not to say Wharton isn't incredibly strong, it just has a different focus. Wharton is known for being more rigorous quantitatively than Kellogg and for being very traditional. Kellogg is seen as more innovative, has more varied teaching methods and is better known for marketing.

From my understanding, business schools aren't nearly rankings whores law schools are: Stanford/Harvard, then Wharton, then MIT/UChi/Columbia/NU, and then the elites.

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Re: JD/MBA is the backdoor way to law school.

Postby bdubs » Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:11 pm

nphsbuckeye wrote:
chadwick218 wrote:FWIW, I have heard from friends currently doing the JD/MBA at Cornell that the MBA program was very easy to get into as 1Ls once they enrolled at the lawschool. The downside is that Cornell's JD/MBA is the traditional four-year variety.

How easy? The old "score this on the GMAT and you're in" deal?
bdubs wrote:I would disagree, I think they both have strong suits. Kellogg is often ranked above Wharton in published rankings (USNWR, Business Week, FT, WSJ) and has faired better through the downturn than Wharton has. That is not to say Wharton isn't incredibly strong, it just has a different focus. Wharton is known for being more rigorous quantitatively than Kellogg and for being very traditional. Kellogg is seen as more innovative, has more varied teaching methods and is better known for marketing.

From my understanding, business schools aren't nearly rankings whores law schools are: Stanford/Harvard, then Wharton, then MIT/UChi/Columbia/NU, and then the elites.


I don't know that this is necessarily true. Business schools care about rankings, its just that USNWR isn't the only source that is considered so they don't pander to their system nearly as much.

What matters the most to business schools is post graduate career outcomes. Career outcomes are something both measured by all of the rankings systems and something that can't easily be gamed.

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Re: JD/MBA is the backdoor way to law school.

Postby nphsbuckeye » Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:43 pm

bdubs wrote:I don't know that this is necessarily true. Business schools care about rankings, its just that USNWR isn't the only source that is considered so they don't pander to their system nearly as much.

What matters the most to business schools is post graduate career outcomes. Career outcomes are something both measured by all of the rankings systems and something that can't easily be gamed.

Well, business schools care - my alma mater, Ohio State, made a big deal of the ranking jump in USN - but in the business world the tiers matter more than the yearly rankings. I mean, BW has Booth #1 (well, maybe the new rankings are out, but they were #1 up to at least a few months ago), but few people who know a lot about business schools actually believe Booth is better than H/S/W. Yalies care, but that's because their b-school does not have the rep that their parent university and law school have, that the SOM (and the students) desperately wants.

But, yes, jobs matter. Depending upon who you want to believe, H/S gets recruiters that go no where else (and are very hard for other elites to get interviews). I'd go to those two first, then W, before any of the others regardless of the rankings (although I want to go to school for entrepreneurship, so that automatically makes me an outlier).

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Veyron
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Re: JD/MBA is the backdoor way to law school.

Postby Veyron » Sun Oct 17, 2010 12:52 am

R6 Philly --> I hate how on TLS, I give facts and then people talk about how their "feelings" are different than my facts. Most JD/MBA's at Penn for the past several years have done law, FACT. Jobs that you would pull with an MBA are going to care just as much about prior W/E as where you went to school and most JD/MBA's are more skimpy on the WE than the flat MBAs.

Now, onto your second point, how do you get one of those 200k + starting. You don't if you're in law school. Those go to people such as those who are going back to their Ibanks as and making the analyst --> Associate/VP jump.

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Re: JD/MBA is the backdoor way to law school.

Postby niederbomb » Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:46 am

The notion that you can backdoor into law school through b-school is kinda silly for anybody without years of work experience.


How about Yale's SOM >>> Yale Law School?

Just a thought. Yale's BS seems to consider the GMAT more and the length of the applicant's WE less than the top business schools; plus, their acceptance rate is almost 20%.

So, for recent grads, they might offer a better option than Kellog/H/S/W/B.




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