who else is excited beyond belief for LS

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Always Credited
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Re: who else is excited beyond belief for LS

Postby Always Credited » Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:48 pm

Frank wrote:^^
To be fair, most of the top-notch, high-level, intellectually stimulating work is only what you can find in BIGLAW.


are you fucking high? maybe after 7 years of work in the trenches you'll touch something interesting and "intellectually stimulating" that doesn't include grinding out billable hours.

also, just because your dreams are bust, or likely to be bust, doesn't mean the same holds true for everyone. really, your generalized pessimism is bumming me out, but not for law school; it just makes me sad for you. me on the other hand...i'll be fine.

Frank
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Re: who else is excited beyond belief for LS

Postby Frank » Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:51 pm

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Last edited by Frank on Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Always Credited
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Re: who else is excited beyond belief for LS

Postby Always Credited » Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:59 pm

Frank wrote:
Always Credited wrote:
Frank wrote:^^
To be fair, most of the top-notch, high-level, intellectually stimulating work is only what you can find in BIGLAW.


are you fucking high? maybe after 7 years of work in the trenches you'll touch something interesting and "intellectually stimulating" that doesn't include grinding out billable hours.

also, just because your dreams are bust, or likely to be bust, doesn't mean the same holds true for everyone. really, your generalized pessimism is bumming me out, but not for law school; it just makes me sad for you. me on the other hand...i'll be fine.



When was the last time you worked in BIGLAW?


well, to be fair, maybe i gave you too much credit in assuming you didn't find the grinding of billable hours to be intellectually stimulating. also, it would seem i've worked in BIGLAW exactly as much as you have - however, i haven't made the decision that its my one and only dream, and that law school is necessarily a lie and a poor investment if BIGLAW isn't handed to me with the ease it once was handed to students.

also, the independent research i conduct and the attorney's i speak to all indicate that BIGLAW (this capitalization is funny) is anything but ecstasy for your brain stem. i trust what i find myself, rather than what random people on the internet tell me...but shit, i'm weird like that.

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Re: who else is excited beyond belief for LS

Postby Frank » Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:01 am

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Last edited by Frank on Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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prezidentv8
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Re: who else is excited beyond belief for LS

Postby prezidentv8 » Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:03 am

--ImageRemoved--

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beach_terror
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Re: who else is excited beyond belief for LS

Postby beach_terror » Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:06 am

Always Credited wrote:
Frank wrote:^^
To be fair, most of the top-notch, high-level, intellectually stimulating work is only what you can find in BIGLAW.


are you fucking high? maybe after 7 years of work in the trenches you'll touch something interesting and "intellectually stimulating" that doesn't include grinding out billable hours.


--ImageRemoved--

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prezidentv8
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Re: who else is excited beyond belief for LS

Postby prezidentv8 » Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:10 am

beach_terror wrote:
Always Credited wrote:
Frank wrote:^^
To be fair, most of the top-notch, high-level, intellectually stimulating work is only what you can find in BIGLAW.


are you fucking high? maybe after 7 years of work in the trenches you'll touch something interesting and "intellectually stimulating" that doesn't include grinding out billable hours.


--ImageRemoved--


Excellent use of advice dog.

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Always Credited
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Re: who else is excited beyond belief for LS

Postby Always Credited » Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:14 am

prezidentv8 wrote:
beach_terror wrote:
Always Credited wrote:
Frank wrote:^^
To be fair, most of the top-notch, high-level, intellectually stimulating work is only what you can find in BIGLAW.


are you fucking high? maybe after 7 years of work in the trenches you'll touch something interesting and "intellectually stimulating" that doesn't include grinding out billable hours.


--ImageRemoved--


Excellent use of advice dog.


Indeed. If he finds such activities interesting and intellectually fulfilling, then by all means troll JDU after you don't get it and DO ADVISE EVERYONE that we are truly and irreversibly screwed for life. I did include this caveat in my following post so advice dog wasn't completely necessary, but I wish he was.

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Ford Prefect
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Re: who else is excited beyond belief for LS

Postby Ford Prefect » Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:15 am

Wait, Frank - didn't you start your doom and gloom by saying that "BIGLAW" wasn't even attainable for most CLS students? And yet, CLS students will only accept a career in "BIGLAW"? And, you've only really made it in "BIGLAW" as a CLS student if you're immediately assigned to an intellectually stimulating case like the Madoff case, which (and I'm showing my ignorance here) is the type of case that first year lawyers from CLS must often be assigned to in a significant capacity.

I guess my 200k in debt (?) will totally kill me as I am not t14 nor looking for major payday with "BIGLAW".

I'm calling flame, or idiot who thinks he can somehow better his job placement by trying to scare others from going into law.

Either way, carry on.

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PDaddy
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Re: who else is excited beyond belief for LS

Postby PDaddy » Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:27 am

badfish wrote:lol, you guys will feel different this time next year.


Um...wuts that sposta mean, huh? wuts that sposta mean? Tell me...how come...huh?...how come? :lol:

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A'nold
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Re: who else is excited beyond belief for LS

Postby A'nold » Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:30 am

Once again, to all of the 0L's out there: If being an attorney is your dream, you will likely be happy in this field. Do not listen to the JDU trolls as I have heard their crap for years and it is a broken record. They were around even during the boom. They get a kick out of trying to make others miserable. They are like dementors from Harry Potter where they see happiness (this thread) and immediately suck all the energy and excitement out of it, or at least go through great efforts to try.

Notice something: the regulars that you see on here are not like this. We are, for the most part, happy w/ our decisions. These JDU'ers crap on the law and talk about "opportunity cost" that doesn't exist for most UG grads these days. Law degrees are NOT "worthless."

I would encourage you to listen to those that are here and not those that threaten to "clog this site with posts" if we don't stop banning them.

twanx
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Re: who else is excited beyond belief for LS

Postby twanx » Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:48 am

A'nold wrote:Once again, to all of the 0L's out there: If being an attorney is your dream, you will likely be happy in this field. Do not listen to the JDU trolls as I have heard their crap for years and it is a broken record. They were around even during the boom. They get a kick out of trying to make others miserable. They are like dementors from Harry Potter where they see happiness (this thread) and immediately suck all the energy and excitement out of it, or at least go through great efforts to try.

Notice something: the regulars that you see on here are not like this. We are, for the most part, happy w/ our decisions. These JDU'ers crap on the law and talk about "opportunity cost" that doesn't exist for most UG grads these days. Law degrees are NOT "worthless."

I would encourage you to listen to those that are here and not those that threaten to "clog this site with posts" if we don't stop banning them.

Listen, you sound like a reasonably intelligent person, and I generally agree with you that people shouldn't totally crap on 0Ls for their decision to go to law school. Obviously every person has unique circumstances that determine whether this is a good idea or not.

With that said, I think you and many of the other 0L posters fail to comprehend the underlying motivations of those who have posted in this thread with reasonable warnings. We're not trying to troll or hate on people for going to law school. Like I mentioned in my last post, I've really enjoyed law school. I have a biglaw SA coming up. I'm ranked incredibly highly at my school. But if you asked me if I would make the choice to go to law school now, I'd say "no". This is simply the absolute worst time to be going to law school. Tuition is simply incomprehensibly high and jobs are just too scarce.

As a member of the class of 2011, I'm sure I can speak for many when I say that you [0Ls] just have no idea what this year's summer recruiting was like. I'd say a majority of my class is still looking for a job. Most of those who do have jobs are working at places where they have no expectation of an offer (externship, in-house, PI/PS, etc.) The mood at school is just so glum. There's a reason why a lot of people who post here are such "dementors" as you put it – there just isn't much happiness on campus these days.

$150,000. $200,000. These are not insignificant numbers. I know that not everyone, and indeed not many, want to work in biglaw. But the problem is two fold: trickle-down and lost opportunities. Those who want biglaw are being forced into competing for non-biglaw jobs, because of the shrinking of summer programs. Governments are cutting budgets and laying off attorneys. Public interest places are cutting budgets, laying off attorneys, and getting free labor through biglaw deferral programs.

I'm terrified of my debt load, and I will be making $160k if/when I start at my biglaw firm.

I understand that people are excited. I was excited! But I just think many 1Ls, 2Ls and 3Ls are trying to impart some wisdom and share what it's like to be on the front lines at school right now. It's not pretty and the prognosis is poor for the next few years, regardless of what you want. I think the main point is that "Well, I can always do IBR and work at the DMV" is a pretty poor reason to gamble on law school. Anyone who flatly rejects the reasoned posts here expressing the crazy idea that hey, maybe taking on $200k in loans in return for poor job prospects isn't the best idea, especially if you're going to school outside the T20. If you're looking at a school outside the T50, PLEASE just take a moment to consider what it means for you when students at Columbia aren't getting jobs. If they can't get biglaw, they're going to find jobs elsewhere, and they're going to be ahead of you in line.

No hate, no animosity, no bitterness for bitterness's sake -- just the truth. Law school is a depressing place to be right now, even for those of us who are lucky enough to have something for the summer.

honestabe84
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Re: who else is excited beyond belief for LS

Postby honestabe84 » Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:48 am

A'nold wrote:Once again, to all of the 0L's out there: If being an attorney is your dream, you will likely be happy in this field. Do not listen to the JDU trolls as I have heard their crap for years and it is a broken record. They were around even during the boom. They get a kick out of trying to make others miserable. They are like dementors from Harry Potter where they see happiness (this thread) and immediately suck all the energy and excitement out of it, or at least go through great efforts to try.

Notice something: the regulars that you see on here are not like this. We are, for the most part, happy w/ our decisions. These JDU'ers crap on the law and talk about "opportunity cost" that doesn't exist for most UG grads these days. Law degrees are NOT "worthless."

I would encourage you to listen to those that are here and not those that threaten to "clog this site with posts" if we don't stop banning them.


If JDUers spent a 10th of the time working towards succeeding as they do on TLS and JDU, they would probably be senior partners at a V10 firm.
Last edited by honestabe84 on Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

Frank
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Re: who else is excited beyond belief for LS

Postby Frank » Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:48 am

.
Last edited by Frank on Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

honestabe84
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Re: who else is excited beyond belief for LS

Postby honestabe84 » Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:53 am

twanx wrote:
A'nold wrote:Once again, to all of the 0L's out there: If being an attorney is your dream, you will likely be happy in this field. Do not listen to the JDU trolls as I have heard their crap for years and it is a broken record. They were around even during the boom. They get a kick out of trying to make others miserable. They are like dementors from Harry Potter where they see happiness (this thread) and immediately suck all the energy and excitement out of it, or at least go through great efforts to try.

Notice something: the regulars that you see on here are not like this. We are, for the most part, happy w/ our decisions. These JDU'ers crap on the law and talk about "opportunity cost" that doesn't exist for most UG grads these days. Law degrees are NOT "worthless."

I would encourage you to listen to those that are here and not those that threaten to "clog this site with posts" if we don't stop banning them.

Listen, you sound like a reasonably intelligent person, and I generally agree with you that people shouldn't totally crap on 0Ls for their decision to go to law school. Obviously every person has unique circumstances that determine whether this is a good idea or not.

With that said, I think you and many of the other 0L posters fail to comprehend the underlying motivations of those who have posted in this thread with reasonable warnings. We're not trying to troll or hate on people for going to law school. Like I mentioned in my last post, I've really enjoyed law school. I have a biglaw SA coming up. I'm ranked incredibly highly at my school. But if you asked me if I would make the choice to go to law school now, I'd say "no". This is simply the absolute worst time to be going to law school. Tuition is simply incomprehensibly high and jobs are just too scarce.

As a member of the class of 2011, I'm sure I can speak for many when I say that you [0Ls] just have no idea what this year's summer recruiting was like. I'd say a majority of my class is still looking for a job. Most of those who do have jobs are working at places where they have no expectation of an offer (externship, in-house, PI/PS, etc.) The mood at school is just so glum. There's a reason why a lot of people who post here are such "dementors" as you put it – there just isn't much happiness on campus these days.

$150,000. $200,000. These are not insignificant numbers. I know that not everyone, and indeed not many, want to work in biglaw. But the problem is two fold: trickle-down and lost opportunities. Those who want biglaw are being forced into competing for non-biglaw jobs, because of the shrinking of summer programs. Governments are cutting budgets and laying off attorneys. Public interest places are cutting budgets, laying off attorneys, and getting free labor through biglaw deferral programs.

I'm terrified of my debt load, and I will be making $160k if/when I start at my biglaw firm.

I understand that people are excited. I was excited! But I just think many 1Ls, 2Ls and 3Ls are trying to impart some wisdom and share what it's like to be on the front lines at school right now. It's not pretty and the prognosis is poor for the next few years, regardless of what you want. I think the main point is that "Well, I can always do IBR and work at the DMV" is a pretty poor reason to gamble on law school. Anyone who flatly rejects the reasoned posts here expressing the crazy idea that hey, maybe taking on $200k in loans in return for poor job prospects isn't the best idea, especially if you're going to school outside the T20. If you're looking at a school outside the T50, PLEASE just take a moment to consider what it means for you when students at Columbia aren't getting jobs. If they can't get biglaw, they're going to find jobs elsewhere, and they're going to be ahead of you in line.

No hate, no animosity, no bitterness for bitterness's sake -- just the truth. Law school is a depressing place to be right now, even for those of us who are lucky enough to have something for the summer.


The recession can't go on forever. I realize that many firms may have permanently cut back, but things will eventually improve in both the public and private sector. This is not the first time the legal profession has seen a recession and it won't be the last.

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Re: who else is excited beyond belief for LS

Postby PDaddy » Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:58 am

I think many of "us" (though I'm definitely not part of this group) just want to be "law students on our way(s) to promising futures", not lawyers. That's the ride they're signing up for. Sadly, people believe the right to tell people they're king shit for a semester (or maybe a year, or even three) is worth the debt and headaches.

twanx
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Re: who else is excited beyond belief for LS

Postby twanx » Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:00 am

honestabe84 wrote:The recession can't go on forever. I realize that many firms may have permanently cut back, but things will eventually improve in both the public and private sector. This is not the first time the legal profession has seen a recession and it won't be the last.

Agreed, but that does nothing for the Class of 2013, or probably even 2014. The weird, nonsensical thing about a lot of legal hiring is just how wedded firms and organizations are to the hiring model. It seems ridiculous to think that a firm would hire 2Ls from a SA instead of going to the laid off attorneys who actually have some experience, but they do. If you miss out on getting a job, or you get laid off, the train is just going to keep on moving and you'll be left behind.

Fundamentally though, the legal market HAS changed unlike past recessions. The legal market had a bit of a bubble too, way too much hiring and a lot of "invented" work from the shennanigans on Wall Street. There will always be legal work, but not at the level of the boom years.

Furthermore, there is the supply issue. The number of law students just keeps increasing. So does the cost of attendance. Things might get better, but the deck is becoming more and more stacked against you each year that goes on.

If you don't believe me, I respect that. Maybe I am being too doom and gloom. I can only report on what I know and what I've seen. I'm on my school's flagship law review: I'd say 50% of the 2L members don't have summer jobs. 25% have biglaw, 25% have midlaw/in house/government/PIPS. This is law review. Those numbers drop precipitously from there.

twanx
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Re: who else is excited beyond belief for LS

Postby twanx » Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:01 am

PDaddy wrote:I think many of "us" (though I'm definitely not part of this group) just want to be "law students on our way(s) to promising futures", not lawyers. That's the ride they're signing up for. Sadly, people believe the right to tell people they're king shit for a semester (or maybe a year, or even three) is worth the debt and headaches.

Semester is the operative word there. Then grades come out, and people stare in horror at the bathroom mirror clutching spring tuition bill in one hand and their B grades in the other and realize "I've made a horrible miscalculation."

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A'nold
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Re: who else is excited beyond belief for LS

Postby A'nold » Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:03 am

twanx wrote:
A'nold wrote:Once again, to all of the 0L's out there: If being an attorney is your dream, you will likely be happy in this field. Do not listen to the JDU trolls as I have heard their crap for years and it is a broken record. They were around even during the boom. They get a kick out of trying to make others miserable. They are like dementors from Harry Potter where they see happiness (this thread) and immediately suck all the energy and excitement out of it, or at least go through great efforts to try.

Notice something: the regulars that you see on here are not like this. We are, for the most part, happy w/ our decisions. These JDU'ers crap on the law and talk about "opportunity cost" that doesn't exist for most UG grads these days. Law degrees are NOT "worthless."

I would encourage you to listen to those that are here and not those that threaten to "clog this site with posts" if we don't stop banning them.

Listen, you sound like a reasonably intelligent person, and I generally agree with you that people shouldn't totally crap on 0Ls for their decision to go to law school. Obviously every person has unique circumstances that determine whether this is a good idea or not.

With that said, I think you and many of the other 0L posters fail to comprehend the underlying motivations of those who have posted in this thread with reasonable warnings. We're not trying to troll or hate on people for going to law school. Like I mentioned in my last post, I've really enjoyed law school. I have a biglaw SA coming up. I'm ranked incredibly highly at my school. But if you asked me if I would make the choice to go to law school now, I'd say "no". This is simply the absolute worst time to be going to law school. Tuition is simply incomprehensibly high and jobs are just too scarce.

As a member of the class of 2011, I'm sure I can speak for many when I say that you [0Ls] just have no idea what this year's summer recruiting was like. I'd say a majority of my class is still looking for a job. Most of those who do have jobs are working at places where they have no expectation of an offer (externship, in-house, PI/PS, etc.) The mood at school is just so glum. There's a reason why a lot of people who post here are such "dementors" as you put it – there just isn't much happiness on campus these days.

$150,000. $200,000. These are not insignificant numbers. I know that not everyone, and indeed not many, want to work in biglaw. But the problem is two fold: trickle-down and lost opportunities. Those who want biglaw are being forced into competing for non-biglaw jobs, because of the shrinking of summer programs. Governments are cutting budgets and laying off attorneys. Public interest places are cutting budgets, laying off attorneys, and getting free labor through biglaw deferral programs.

I'm terrified of my debt load, and I will be making $160k if/when I start at my biglaw firm.

I understand that people are excited. I was excited! But I just think many 1Ls, 2Ls and 3Ls are trying to impart some wisdom and share what it's like to be on the front lines at school right now. It's not pretty and the prognosis is poor for the next few years, regardless of what you want. I think the main point is that "Well, I can always do IBR and work at the DMV" is a pretty poor reason to gamble on law school. Anyone who flatly rejects the reasoned posts here expressing the crazy idea that hey, maybe taking on $200k in loans in return for poor job prospects isn't the best idea, especially if you're going to school outside the T20. If you're looking at a school outside the T50, PLEASE just take a moment to consider what it means for you when students at Columbia aren't getting jobs. If they can't get biglaw, they're going to find jobs elsewhere, and they're going to be ahead of you in line.

No hate, no animosity, no bitterness for bitterness's sake -- just the truth. Law school is a depressing place to be right now, even for those of us who are lucky enough to have something for the summer.



A question that is never answered by you guys: What the hell do you advise people to do w/ their Poli Sci degree now? No WE, the worst economy since the great depression, etc.? Do you really think there is such thing as "opportunity cost" right now? The majority of schools and majors do not place the majority of their students in that profession, the law does. If half of all law students across the board in the U.S. get attorney positions (yes, even "shit law") those aren't bad odds even ITE when you have schools like Cooley churning out like 400 students every year. Point is, if you REALLY want to be an attorney, you can make it unless you are hopelessly inept (which some are, but that is the case in every profession and program). You can get one of these omgz "horrific" 40k jobs and use the IBR in a worst case scenario. Maybe it's not glamorous and not what you signed up for, but guess what? I'd rather be doing that than working at a hotel front desk making $10 an hour with a high school dropout middle manager that is barely literate.

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prezidentv8
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Re: who else is excited beyond belief for LS

Postby prezidentv8 » Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:05 am

A'nold wrote:
twanx wrote:
A'nold wrote:Once again, to all of the 0L's out there: If being an attorney is your dream, you will likely be happy in this field. Do not listen to the JDU trolls as I have heard their crap for years and it is a broken record. They were around even during the boom. They get a kick out of trying to make others miserable. They are like dementors from Harry Potter where they see happiness (this thread) and immediately suck all the energy and excitement out of it, or at least go through great efforts to try.

Notice something: the regulars that you see on here are not like this. We are, for the most part, happy w/ our decisions. These JDU'ers crap on the law and talk about "opportunity cost" that doesn't exist for most UG grads these days. Law degrees are NOT "worthless."

I would encourage you to listen to those that are here and not those that threaten to "clog this site with posts" if we don't stop banning them.

Listen, you sound like a reasonably intelligent person, and I generally agree with you that people shouldn't totally crap on 0Ls for their decision to go to law school. Obviously every person has unique circumstances that determine whether this is a good idea or not.

With that said, I think you and many of the other 0L posters fail to comprehend the underlying motivations of those who have posted in this thread with reasonable warnings. We're not trying to troll or hate on people for going to law school. Like I mentioned in my last post, I've really enjoyed law school. I have a biglaw SA coming up. I'm ranked incredibly highly at my school. But if you asked me if I would make the choice to go to law school now, I'd say "no". This is simply the absolute worst time to be going to law school. Tuition is simply incomprehensibly high and jobs are just too scarce.

As a member of the class of 2011, I'm sure I can speak for many when I say that you [0Ls] just have no idea what this year's summer recruiting was like. I'd say a majority of my class is still looking for a job. Most of those who do have jobs are working at places where they have no expectation of an offer (externship, in-house, PI/PS, etc.) The mood at school is just so glum. There's a reason why a lot of people who post here are such "dementors" as you put it – there just isn't much happiness on campus these days.

$150,000. $200,000. These are not insignificant numbers. I know that not everyone, and indeed not many, want to work in biglaw. But the problem is two fold: trickle-down and lost opportunities. Those who want biglaw are being forced into competing for non-biglaw jobs, because of the shrinking of summer programs. Governments are cutting budgets and laying off attorneys. Public interest places are cutting budgets, laying off attorneys, and getting free labor through biglaw deferral programs.

I'm terrified of my debt load, and I will be making $160k if/when I start at my biglaw firm.

I understand that people are excited. I was excited! But I just think many 1Ls, 2Ls and 3Ls are trying to impart some wisdom and share what it's like to be on the front lines at school right now. It's not pretty and the prognosis is poor for the next few years, regardless of what you want. I think the main point is that "Well, I can always do IBR and work at the DMV" is a pretty poor reason to gamble on law school. Anyone who flatly rejects the reasoned posts here expressing the crazy idea that hey, maybe taking on $200k in loans in return for poor job prospects isn't the best idea, especially if you're going to school outside the T20. If you're looking at a school outside the T50, PLEASE just take a moment to consider what it means for you when students at Columbia aren't getting jobs. If they can't get biglaw, they're going to find jobs elsewhere, and they're going to be ahead of you in line.

No hate, no animosity, no bitterness for bitterness's sake -- just the truth. Law school is a depressing place to be right now, even for those of us who are lucky enough to have something for the summer.



A question that is never answered by you guys: What the hell do you advise people to do w/ their Poli Sci degree now? No WE, the worst economy since the great depression, etc.? Do you really think there is such thing as "opportunity cost" right now? The majority of schools and majors do not place the majority of their students in that profession, the law does. If half of all law students across the board in the U.S. get attorney positions (yes, even "shit law") those aren't bad odds even ITE when you have schools like Cooley churning out like 400 students every year. Point is, if you REALLY want to be an attorney, you can make it unless you are hopelessly inept (which some are, but that is the case in every profession and program). You can get one of these omgz "horrific" 40k jobs and use the IBR in a worst case scenario. Maybe it's not glamorous and not what you signed up for, but guess what? I'd rather be doing that than working at a hotel front desk making $10 an hour with a high school dropout middle manager that is barely literate.



zOMG SHOULDA BEEN AN ENGINEER!!!!!! PANIC!

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A'nold
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Re: who else is excited beyond belief for LS

Postby A'nold » Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:08 am

prezidentv8 wrote:
A'nold wrote:
twanx wrote:
A'nold wrote:Once again, to all of the 0L's out there: If being an attorney is your dream, you will likely be happy in this field. Do not listen to the JDU trolls as I have heard their crap for years and it is a broken record. They were around even during the boom. They get a kick out of trying to make others miserable. They are like dementors from Harry Potter where they see happiness (this thread) and immediately suck all the energy and excitement out of it, or at least go through great efforts to try.

Notice something: the regulars that you see on here are not like this. We are, for the most part, happy w/ our decisions. These JDU'ers crap on the law and talk about "opportunity cost" that doesn't exist for most UG grads these days. Law degrees are NOT "worthless."

I would encourage you to listen to those that are here and not those that threaten to "clog this site with posts" if we don't stop banning them.

Listen, you sound like a reasonably intelligent person, and I generally agree with you that people shouldn't totally crap on 0Ls for their decision to go to law school. Obviously every person has unique circumstances that determine whether this is a good idea or not.

With that said, I think you and many of the other 0L posters fail to comprehend the underlying motivations of those who have posted in this thread with reasonable warnings. We're not trying to troll or hate on people for going to law school. Like I mentioned in my last post, I've really enjoyed law school. I have a biglaw SA coming up. I'm ranked incredibly highly at my school. But if you asked me if I would make the choice to go to law school now, I'd say "no". This is simply the absolute worst time to be going to law school. Tuition is simply incomprehensibly high and jobs are just too scarce.

As a member of the class of 2011, I'm sure I can speak for many when I say that you [0Ls] just have no idea what this year's summer recruiting was like. I'd say a majority of my class is still looking for a job. Most of those who do have jobs are working at places where they have no expectation of an offer (externship, in-house, PI/PS, etc.) The mood at school is just so glum. There's a reason why a lot of people who post here are such "dementors" as you put it – there just isn't much happiness on campus these days.

$150,000. $200,000. These are not insignificant numbers. I know that not everyone, and indeed not many, want to work in biglaw. But the problem is two fold: trickle-down and lost opportunities. Those who want biglaw are being forced into competing for non-biglaw jobs, because of the shrinking of summer programs. Governments are cutting budgets and laying off attorneys. Public interest places are cutting budgets, laying off attorneys, and getting free labor through biglaw deferral programs.

I'm terrified of my debt load, and I will be making $160k if/when I start at my biglaw firm.

I understand that people are excited. I was excited! But I just think many 1Ls, 2Ls and 3Ls are trying to impart some wisdom and share what it's like to be on the front lines at school right now. It's not pretty and the prognosis is poor for the next few years, regardless of what you want. I think the main point is that "Well, I can always do IBR and work at the DMV" is a pretty poor reason to gamble on law school. Anyone who flatly rejects the reasoned posts here expressing the crazy idea that hey, maybe taking on $200k in loans in return for poor job prospects isn't the best idea, especially if you're going to school outside the T20. If you're looking at a school outside the T50, PLEASE just take a moment to consider what it means for you when students at Columbia aren't getting jobs. If they can't get biglaw, they're going to find jobs elsewhere, and they're going to be ahead of you in line.

No hate, no animosity, no bitterness for bitterness's sake -- just the truth. Law school is a depressing place to be right now, even for those of us who are lucky enough to have something for the summer.



A question that is never answered by you guys: What the hell do you advise people to do w/ their Poli Sci degree now? No WE, the worst economy since the great depression, etc.? Do you really think there is such thing as "opportunity cost" right now? The majority of schools and majors do not place the majority of their students in that profession, the law does. If half of all law students across the board in the U.S. get attorney positions (yes, even "shit law") those aren't bad odds even ITE when you have schools like Cooley churning out like 400 students every year. Point is, if you REALLY want to be an attorney, you can make it unless you are hopelessly inept (which some are, but that is the case in every profession and program). You can get one of these omgz "horrific" 40k jobs and use the IBR in a worst case scenario. Maybe it's not glamorous and not what you signed up for, but guess what? I'd rather be doing that than working at a hotel front desk making $10 an hour with a high school dropout middle manager that is barely literate.



zOMG SHOULDA BEEN AN ENGINEER!!!!!! PANIC!


+10000000000000000000000000000000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

RickyMack
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Re: who else is excited beyond belief for LS

Postby RickyMack » Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:21 am

.

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SportsFanatic
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Re: who else is excited beyond belief for LS

Postby SportsFanatic » Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:10 am

Frank wrote:
SportsFanatic wrote:Moral of this long post (which I took the time out of my studying for finals to write so that more innocent people in their 20s won't get sucked into the farce that is law school):
1. Don't add a useless law degree onto a useless undergrad degree. (So don't take on more crushing debt just because you couldn't find your dream job or are "bored" at your current job. It's not worth the debt and stress of law school and the legal profession.)
2. Don't assume that you will finish in the top percentiles of your class. You have an inverse chance of doing just the opposite.
3. Read/listen to every [fricking] link that is in this post. If you don't, you will regret it for the rest of your [fricking] lives.
4. A URM? Still [fricked] (http://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id ... forum_id=2).
5. Think you are T14 safe? Think again (http://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id ... forum_id=2).
6. If you aren't T6/engineering/well-connected/top 10%, start getting used to craigslist legal board: http://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id ... forum_id=2

ummmm. I didn't read the entire thread, but this person went to Chapman and is complaining about getting no offers from Big Law. I stopped reading after that.



Well, you are missing some good advice, then. I go to Columbia, not Chapman, and we are as screwed as the rest of the non-T14.


NOT you. I'm speaking of the bolded section in the above post. You pointed to a blog about a URM attending Chapman complaining about not getting a biglaw job as evidence of URM's also struggling. Personally, I don't think that's a good example to use. Unless I missed something in that thread. Like I said, I quit reading after finding out the poster went to Chapman.

LoveXOXO1
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Re: who else is excited beyond belief for LS

Postby LoveXOXO1 » Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:52 pm

Glad to see some arguing going on here.

Let me re-focus the discussion. Legal job openings are few and far between. As BIGLAW jobs dry up, it creates a ripple effect in the legal sector. BIGLAW aspirants who couldn't get BIGLAW then use their credentials to get public interest/government jobs which were where worse-ranked schools placed graduates. Now many of these "TTT" graduates have no where to land after graduation.

So here are the outcome scenarios:

$120,000 in debt + NO JOB = YOUR [FRICKED].
$120,000 in debt + BIGLAW = YOUR GREAT!
$0 in debt + NO JOB = YOULL PROBABLY SURVIVE.
$0 in debt + JOB = YOUR GREAT!

To be honest, I don't really give a [dang] where you want to work or what kind of advocacy you want to do after graduation. If you don't have any debt, then knock yourself out and do whatever you want. If you have 6-figures of debt, you typically have two options: BIGLAW, or a credit score that tears you a new anus because you can't make the student loan payments. Good luck getting a house, mortgage, or any other type of legitimate loan.

I keep hearing about IBR. (Please take a moment to re-read what I posted above about the current availability of public interest and qualifying-government jobs.) THERE IS ALSO A SHORTAGE OF IBR-QUALIFYING JOBS! So kiss IBR goodbye, say hello to waiting tables/bartending/basement doc review/craigslist.

But I'll repeat. $0 in debt + NO JOB = YOUR OK. If you aren't taking on any (or very low) debt in law school, then you can totally disregard all of this gloom because you won't have to worry about crushing loan payments.

Ya, I know a lot of 1Ls and 2Ls that got non-BIGLAW summer legal jobs. The huge problem is that THEY DON'T LEAD TO FULL TIME OFFERS AFTER GRADUATION. Corporate in-house, government, etc. don't take on first-year associates because it costs to much to train them (thank you again law school for your terrible curriculum of relevant legal skills). So besides law firms and federal clerking, I don't really see many employment opportunities for new JD holders.

SportsFanatic wrote:ummmm. I didn't read the entire thread, but this person went to Chapman and is complaining about getting no offers from Big Law. I stopped reading after that.


Try reading that thread again. "Cautious T22 URM" is not the one going to Chapman. If I had to take a wild guess, I would assume he is attending a "T22." ("To be fair" attends Chapman apparently.)

honestabe84 wrote:If JDUers spent a 10th of the time working towards succeeding as they do on TLS and JDU, they would probably be senior partners at a V10 firm.


1. I've never even been to JDU.
2. By reading the few dissenters in this thread besides myself, you understand that we ARE THE SUCCESSFUL ONES telling you this?!? We are the ones that made it out alive by the skin of our teeth, and it hasn't (for the most part) been an enjoyable experience doing so. Of course I would be more skeptical of what we said if none of us had jobs and were just griping about our shitty grades and unemployment status.
3. To everyone else calling for us dissenters to be banned or our posts just put in the corner shadows in a thread that groups all of our comments together (probably so that 0L TLSers are disinclined to even look at them), you would either have to be 0Ls or law students with zero 2L/3L friends. But hey, I guess if you're going to Duke with your guys' 100% employment rate, of course you wouldn't see the slaughter...lol

A'nold wrote:A question that is never answered by you guys: What the hell do you advise people to do w/ their Poli Sci degree now?

I understand that this is an often-asked question and a very complex one. Of course, if you had been planning to go to be a lawyer since your freshman year, then you should've been watching the legal market very closely. (And yes, unless you started pursuing your polisci degree in 2008, you've been screwed. Sorry. You have only the FHA to thank.) I think anyone in a polisci program knows that there are not many BA polisci jobs out there (or liberal arts in general). Too bad. You can still get an entry-level job somewhere and defer your LS start date until things start clearing up. If you can't get some government-related job (or whatever else actually uses the knowledge learned in political science classes), then get what you can get. You really think taking out $100,000 in loans in the answer? I don't think so. You might as well buy $100,000 in lotto tickets. Probably similar odds of paying off your debt.

And to counter your question with another. Why the [heck] do 0Ls take advice from other 0Ls who have absolutely zero experience with the law school process? I want to say it's so you can keep your hopes alive and don't have to face the real-world facts that the legal market is over-saturated, and that paying back thousands of dollars in students loans will be easy.

To repeat one more time, if you won't have any loans, then you will probably be fine. If you will be taking out a significant amount in student loans (aka "paying sticker" or half-tuition even), think very long and hard about your decision to do so. In this legal market, you have a very good chance of not being able to repay them.

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A'nold
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Re: who else is excited beyond belief for LS

Postby A'nold » Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:03 pm

LoveXOXO1 wrote:Glad to see some arguing going on here.

Let me re-focus the discussion. Legal job openings are few and far between. As BIGLAW jobs dry up, it creates a ripple effect in the legal sector. BIGLAW aspirants who couldn't get BIGLAW then use their credentials to get public interest/government jobs which were where worse-ranked schools placed graduates. Now many of these "TTT" graduates have no where to land after graduation.

So here are the outcome scenarios:

$120,000 in debt + NO JOB = YOUR [FRICKED].
$120,000 in debt + BIGLAW = YOUR GREAT!
$0 in debt + NO JOB = YOULL PROBABLY SURVIVE.
$0 in debt + JOB = YOUR GREAT!

To be honest, I don't really give a [dang] where you want to work or what kind of advocacy you want to do after graduation. If you don't have any debt, then knock yourself out and do whatever you want. If you have 6-figures of debt, you typically have two options: BIGLAW, or a credit score that tears you a new anus because you can't make the student loan payments. Good luck getting a house, mortgage, or any other type of legitimate loan.

I keep hearing about IBR. (Please take a moment to re-read what I posted above about the current availability of public interest and qualifying-government jobs.) THERE IS ALSO A SHORTAGE OF IBR-QUALIFYING JOBS! So kiss IBR goodbye, say hello to waiting tables/bartending/basement doc review/craigslist.

But I'll repeat. $0 in debt + NO JOB = YOUR OK. If you aren't taking on any (or very low) debt in law school, then you can totally disregard all of this gloom because you won't have to worry about crushing loan payments.

Ya, I know a lot of 1Ls and 2Ls that got non-BIGLAW summer legal jobs. The huge problem is that THEY DON'T LEAD TO FULL TIME OFFERS AFTER GRADUATION. Corporate in-house, government, etc. don't take on first-year associates because it costs to much to train them (thank you again law school for your terrible curriculum of relevant legal skills). So besides law firms and federal clerking, I don't really see many employment opportunities for new JD holders.

SportsFanatic wrote:ummmm. I didn't read the entire thread, but this person went to Chapman and is complaining about getting no offers from Big Law. I stopped reading after that.


Try reading that thread again. "Cautious T22 URM" is not the one going to Chapman. If I had to take a wild guess, I would assume he is attending a "T22." ("To be fair" attends Chapman apparently.)

honestabe84 wrote:If JDUers spent a 10th of the time working towards succeeding as they do on TLS and JDU, they would probably be senior partners at a V10 firm.


1. I've never even been to JDU.
2. By reading the few dissenters in this thread besides myself, you understand that we ARE THE SUCCESSFUL ONES telling you this?!? We are the ones that made it out alive by the skin of our teeth, and it hasn't (for the most part) been an enjoyable experience doing so. Of course I would be more skeptical of what we said if none of us had jobs and were just griping about our shitty grades and unemployment status.
3. To everyone else calling for us dissenters to be banned or our posts just put in the corner shadows in a thread that groups all of our comments together (probably so that 0L TLSers are disinclined to even look at them), you would either have to be 0Ls or law students with zero 2L/3L friends. But hey, I guess if you're going to Duke with your guys' 100% employment rate, of course you wouldn't see the slaughter...lol

A'nold wrote:A question that is never answered by you guys: What the hell do you advise people to do w/ their Poli Sci degree now?

I understand that this is an often-asked question and a very complex one. Of course, if you had been planning to go to be a lawyer since your freshman year, then you should've been watching the legal market very closely. (And yes, unless you started pursuing your polisci degree in 2008, you've been screwed. Sorry. You have only the FHA to thank.) I think anyone in a polisci program knows that there are not many BA polisci jobs out there (or liberal arts in general). Too bad. You can still get an entry-level job somewhere and defer your LS start date until things start clearing up. If you can't get some government-related job (or whatever else actually uses the knowledge learned in political science classes), then get what you can get. You really think taking out $100,000 in loans in the answer? I don't think so. You might as well buy $100,000 in lotto tickets. Probably similar odds of paying off your debt.

And to counter your question with another. Why the [heck] do 0Ls take advice from other 0Ls who have absolutely zero experience with the law school process? I want to say it's so you can keep your hopes alive and don't have to face the real-world facts that the legal market is over-saturated, and that paying back thousands of dollars in students loans will be easy.

To repeat one more time, if you won't have any loans, then you will probably be fine. If you will be taking out a significant amount in student loans (aka "paying sticker" or half-tuition even), think very long and hard about your decision to do so. [b]In this legal market, you have a very good chance of not being able to repay them.[/b]


Just b/c you guys repeat the same cliche (bolded) over and over again does not make it true. Most law grads get law jobs. I'm not talking about taking out sticker to attend John Marshall here, I'm talking about paying medium tuition at a medium school. The average law student will get a law job. Now, once again, if we are talking biglaw or bust, you're screwed, but these overgeneralizations are so freaking annoying.




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