who else is excited beyond belief for LS Forum

[LoveXOXO1]

As someone from Ohio and the Cleveland area, a 0L saying that the Cleveland market is easier to find a job in REALLY makes me laugh. You, my friend, have absolutely ZERO idea what you are talking about.

Look at the law schools in Ohio, then look through the NALP directory for Cleveland/Ohio law firms. Eight law schools in Ohio, and 26 firms in the state that are MIDLAW or bigger (assuming all MIDLAW and BIGLAW firms submit data to NALP). But let's focus in on Cleveland specifically: 6-7 law schools competing for a whopping 13 firms in the city. (OK, obviously there are many more smaller and SHIZLAW firms, but each will take on 1-2 new associates max...clearly not enough to absorb all the graduating 3Ls in Ohio, along with any law students from better ranked schools that decide to come back and practice in the state).

And you know that starting salaries are much, much lower in Ohio than any other BIGLAW city (NYC, CHI, LA, BOS)... Jones Day starts at $145K (which is awesome considering the cost of living), a few mid-sized firms start at $105-$125K, and everything else is around $70-90K. Less income + potentially same amount of debt =/= a necessarily better outcome in secondary markets.

[Unemployed]

If I may join the discussion...

The market is still awful. Some people at Columbia are struggling. 3L's with good grades and solid SA positions are scrambling because they were "no-offered." Some of the 2L's who struck out at EIP are still struggling to find jobs largely due to the very handicaps which stifled their EIP chances. Some of my 1L classmates are still looking for summer jobs, and they are offering to work for free!

ITE notwithstanding, I am still excited to be here. Ironically, it wasn't until exam period that I had a chance to remind myself why I came to law school after all - I am a total law dork and I love this stuff. 3 years of fulfilling "intellectual endeavor" is worth the price, as long as there is a safety net. The question is - is there a safety net for you? This is a highly individualized calculus. You can be safe attending a T4 if you will graduate with little debt; if you have solid connections that will lead to jobs; and/or if you have the resources and connections to make it on your own. Likewise, going to Columbia doesn't necessarily mean you are safe. But you can become master of your own destiny. If you don't have connections, make them! I consider myself biglaw safe not because I have good grades but because I have people I can count on. Before going to college, however, I did not know a single lawyer.

All that we (the "pessimists") are asking you to do is to engage in a rational analysis of your situation before you plunge in with optimism. Do not rely on some vague notion of "oh I'm sure I'll be fine." Create legitimate reasons to be optimistic.

[Frank]

.

[Unemployed]

If I may join the discussion...

The market is still awful. Some people at Columbia are struggling. 3L's with good grades and solid SA positions are scrambling because they were "no-offered." Some of the 2L's who struck out at EIP are still struggling to find jobs largely due to the very handicaps which stifled their EIP chances. Some of my 1L classmates are still looking for summer jobs, and they are offering to work for free!

ITE notwithstanding, I am still excited to be here. Ironically, it wasn't until exam period that I had a chance to remind myself why I came to law school after all - I am a total law dork and I love this stuff. 3 years of fulfilling "intellectual endeavor" is worth the price, as long as there is a safety net. The question is - is there a safety net for you? This is a highly individualized calculus. You can be safe attending a T4 if you will graduate with little debt; if you have solid connections that will lead to jobs; and/or if you have the resources and connections to make it on your own. Likewise, going to Columbia doesn't necessarily mean you are safe. But you can become master of your own destiny. If you don't have connections, make them! I consider myself biglaw safe not because I have good grades but because I have people I can count on. Before going to college, however, I did not know a single lawyer.

All that we (the "pessimists") are asking you to do is to engage in a rational analysis of your situation before you plunge in with optimism. Do not rely on some vague notion of "oh I'm sure I'll be fine." Create legitimate reasons to be optimistic.

How many CLS 1Ls do you still know w/o jobs? I was under the impression the entire class had something at this point.

I personally know two.

[Frank]

.

[Unemployed]

If I may join the discussion...

The market is still awful. Some people at Columbia are struggling. 3L's with good grades and solid SA positions are scrambling because they were "no-offered." Some of the 2L's who struck out at EIP are still struggling to find jobs largely due to the very handicaps which stifled their EIP chances. Some of my 1L classmates are still looking for summer jobs, and they are offering to work for free!

ITE notwithstanding, I am still excited to be here. Ironically, it wasn't until exam period that I had a chance to remind myself why I came to law school after all - I am a total law dork and I love this stuff. 3 years of fulfilling "intellectual endeavor" is worth the price, as long as there is a safety net. The question is - is there a safety net for you? This is a highly individualized calculus. You can be safe attending a T4 if you will graduate with little debt; if you have solid connections that will lead to jobs; and/or if you have the resources and connections to make it on your own. Likewise, going to Columbia doesn't necessarily mean you are safe. But you can become master of your own destiny. If you don't have connections, make them! I consider myself biglaw safe not because I have good grades but because I have people I can count on. Before going to college, however, I did not know a single lawyer.

All that we (the "pessimists") are asking you to do is to engage in a rational analysis of your situation before you plunge in with optimism. Do not rely on some vague notion of "oh I'm sure I'll be fine." Create legitimate reasons to be optimistic.

How many CLS 1Ls do you still know w/o jobs? I was under the impression the entire class had something at this point.

I personally know two.

Wow, really? That is terrible. Did they not interview? Grades aside, a lot of people got stuff before grades were released fully. Were they just not hustling?

Err... they definitely hustled. They may have been "over-bidding." I don't really know the full story.

[Frank]

.

[Unemployed]

What sort of 'connections' did you make? I went to pretty much all those firm events and have corresponded well with the people I met, but I wouldn't consider myself BIGLAW safe just from that...

Through college organizations, friends' parents, their friends, etc. It's crucial (and relatively easy) to turn distant connections into mentoring relationships. Same with winning over professors.

Edit: I don't think the law school networking events are worth anything. It's much easier to reach out to someone who is connected to you, no matter how tenuous the connection.

If you get to the point where you can joke around, have drinks together, exchange backslaps, and then one day the mentor blurts out "I can't wait to work with you - just don't fail out of school," you are golden

[Knock]

What sort of 'connections' did you make? I went to pretty much all those firm events and have corresponded well with the people I met, but I wouldn't consider myself BIGLAW safe just from that...

Through college organizations, friends' parents, their friends, etc. It's crucial (and relatively easy) to turn distant connections into mentoring relationships. Same with winning over professors.

Edit: I don't think the law school networking events are worth anything. It's much easier to reach out to someone who is connected to you, no matter how tenuous the connection.

Any tips on this? I want to get stronger LOR's.

[Unemployed]

What sort of 'connections' did you make? I went to pretty much all those firm events and have corresponded well with the people I met, but I wouldn't consider myself BIGLAW safe just from that...

Through college organizations, friends' parents, their friends, etc. It's crucial (and relatively easy) to turn distant connections into mentoring relationships. Same with winning over professors.

Edit: I don't think the law school networking events are worth anything. It's much easier to reach out to someone who is connected to you, no matter how tenuous the connection.

Any tips on this? I want to get stronger LOR's.

Umm... show genuine interest in the professor's work and life? Say intelligent things during office hours? Seek out the neglected professors? You'd be surprised how friendly, interesting, and helpful some of these intimidating professors turn out to be.

Oh, and get A's if you can

[LoveXOXO1]

The question is - is there a safety net for you? This is a highly individualized calculus. You can be safe attending a T4 if you will graduate with little debt; if you have solid connections that will lead to jobs; and/or if you have the resources and connections to make it on your own.

Calculus outlined here:

So how should you decide if law school is a good gamble/risk of the rest of your life? I highly advise you go only if at least one of these factors apply to you (but the more factors that you have, the better):
1. You get into Harvard/Yale/Stanford (HYS).
2. You get into other schools in the T14 with $.
3. Your parents finance your entire law school adventure.
4. You are well-connected to partners at a law firm that expressly tell/promise you employment.
5. You have an undergraduate degree in (starting with the best) either a (1) BS, MS, or Ph.D. in electrical engineering, (2) BS, MS, or Ph.D. in chemical engineering, (3) Ph.D. in a biological science, or (4) any other engineering or hard science (not sociology or psychology), but these won't be in as much a demand.
6. You get a 100% full ride.
7. You got at least a 170 LSAT.

[APimpNamedSlickback]

x

[Unemployed]

The question is - is there a safety net for you? This is a highly individualized calculus. You can be safe attending a T4 if you will graduate with little debt; if you have solid connections that will lead to jobs; and/or if you have the resources and connections to make it on your own.

Calculus outlined here:

So how should you decide if law school is a good gamble/risk of the rest of your life? I highly advise you go only if at least one of these factors apply to you (but the more factors that you have, the better):
1. You get into Harvard/Yale/Stanford (HYS).
2. You get into other schools in the T14 with $.
3. Your parents finance your entire law school adventure.
4. You are well-connected to partners at a law firm that expressly tell/promise you employment.
5. You have an undergraduate degree in (starting with the best) either a (1) BS, MS, or Ph.D. in electrical engineering, (2) BS, MS, or Ph.D. in chemical engineering, (3) Ph.D. in a biological science, or (4) any other engineering or hard science (not sociology or psychology), but these won't be in as much a demand.
6. You get a 100% full ride.
7. You got at least a 170 LSAT.

That is a solid list.

[LoveXOXO1]

1, 2, and 7 apply. also, $$.

xoxo,

thoughts? should i have any hesitation whatsoever about law school?

Congrats on HYS and T14s bud. Sounds like you have solid options. I'd take HYS if you are willing to start in BIGLAW and do at least 2-3 years to pay off your LS debt. I don't know of any HYSers that are having debt issues, even in this economy (besides the couple of jerkoffs at every school). Plus, HYS and BIGLAW credentials will open virtually every door for you and allow you to lateral into virtually any legal market.

If you are more into public interest work and don't care about prestige, or you know for sure that you do not want to do BIGLAW, take the T14 $$ and gun it.

[forty-two]

Any tips on this? I want to get stronger LOR's.

Umm... show genuine interest in the professor's work and life? Say intelligent things during office hours? Seek out the neglected professors? You'd be surprised how friendly, interesting, and helpful some of these intimidating professors turn out to be.

Oh, and get A's if you can

+1, especially to the bolded. Intimidating profs might surprise you. It's also usually easier to get to know them because they don't have students sucking up to them all the time.

Oh, and try to do research or TA for a prof if you get the chance. It's a good way to get to know different professors. Good luck!

[Green Crayons]

I keep hearing about IBR. (Please take a moment to re-read what I posted above about the current availability of public interest and qualifying-government jobs.) THERE IS ALSO A SHORTAGE OF IBR-QUALIFYING JOBS! So kiss IBR goodbye, say hello to waiting tables/bartending/basement doc review/craigslist.

This is the only problem I have with your posts. You're conflating IBR with public service loan forgiveness. IBR is a loan repayment program that anyone can use as long as they are trying to pay off Federal (GradPLUS) loans. It's a capped payment 12% of a person's gross income from the previous tax year. The maximum time you'll be paying these loans back is 25 years. (So, yes, theoretically you could take out more in federal loans than you would ever pay back if you had a bunch of loans and a subsequent crap paying job.) Now, if you were doing the public service route, that maximum time you'll be paying back loans (regardless of loan payment plan) would be 10 years.

The fact remains, however, that anyone can qualify for IBR if they want to pay off federal loans. It doesn't matter if you're working BIGLAW (then you wouldn't really want to pursue IBR, hth) or working at your local Food Market in the meat department for $8.50/hr. At least, for the time being (all depending upon if/when Congress changes the rules). But take comfort that you won't be getting out-and-out buttraped.


This is not to say that debt shouldn't still factor into people's decision whether or not to attend law school. 12% of one's income - especially when they're making such a small amount that IBR is actually the best way to go about repaying loans - is a lot of money.


Anyways, as for the original topic: I'm a 2013er and am already filled with anxiety and stress for what awaits me at the beginning of my 1L summer/end of 3L. Considering the rather harsh realities of the legal profession at the moment (and for at least another year or two - and that's looking at things optimistically), I don't understand how anyone can be "excited beyond belief." It's a new chapter in one's life, so of course there's excitement... but holy crap it's going to be a rough couple of years.

[T14_Scholly]

The question is - is there a safety net for you? This is a highly individualized calculus. You can be safe attending a T4 if you will graduate with little debt; if you have solid connections that will lead to jobs; and/or if you have the resources and connections to make it on your own.

Calculus outlined here:

So how should you decide if law school is a good gamble/risk of the rest of your life? I highly advise you go only if at least one of these factors apply to you (but the more factors that you have, the better):
1. You get into Harvard/Yale/Stanford (HYS).
2. You get into other schools in the T14 with $.
3. Your parents finance your entire law school adventure.
4. You are well-connected to partners at a law firm that expressly tell/promise you employment.
5. You have an undergraduate degree in (starting with the best) either a (1) BS, MS, or Ph.D. in electrical engineering, (2) BS, MS, or Ph.D. in chemical engineering, (3) Ph.D. in a biological science, or (4) any other engineering or hard science (not sociology or psychology), but these won't be in as much a demand.
6. You get a 100% full ride.
7. You got at least a 170 LSAT.

I'm not sure why the 170 LSAT appears on that list as an independent factor.

[imisscollege]

Maybe the C grads aren't getting jobs because they're awkward as hell. The only two kids I know who go to C completely lack social skills. Not that I believe in Him but god typically doesn't give everything to everybody you know...if you can hit a 175 chances are something's going to be lacking. But hey i'm just throwing that out there I have no idea.

[LoveXOXO1]

The fact remains, however, that anyone can qualify for IBR if they want to pay off federal loans. It doesn't matter if you're working BIGLAW (then you wouldn't really want to pursue IBR, hth) or working at your local Food Market in the meat department for $8.50/hr. At least, for the time being (all depending upon if/when Congress changes the rules). But take comfort that you won't be getting out-and-out buttraped.

I'll concede this point and admit to my mix-up of terms. Yes, Green Crayons you are correct for everything except assuming that "anyone can qualify for IBR." I'm obviously not going to research the issue for you, but just a quick cursory look at at the Dept. of Education (http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/ ... BRPlan.jsp) reveals that IBR is only available for those who are experiencing a "partial financial hardship."

[Frank]

.

[Green Crayons]

I'll concede this point and admit to my mix-up of terms. Yes, Green Crayons you are correct for everything except assuming that "anyone can qualify for IBR." I'm obviously not going to research the issue for you, but just a quick cursory look at at the Dept. of Education (http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/ ... BRPlan.jsp) reveals that IBR is only available for those who are experiencing a "partial financial hardship."

lol, thanks for the offer of not researching the issue for me, gotta love the passive-aggressive subtext that I haven't done research on the issue. Let me rephrase because there is a difference between signing up and qualifying.

From the website:
"While your lender will perform the calculation to determine your eligibility, you can use the Departments IBR calculator to estimate if you would likely benefit from the IBR plan. It looks at your income, family size, and state of residence to calculate your IBR monthly payment amount. If that amount is lower than the monthly payment under a 10-year standard repayment plan, then you are eligible to repay your loans under IBR. See below for a more detailed description of how IBR eligibility is determined."

Basically, anyone can sign up for the IBR, and they will qualify unless if their IBR monthly payment would be more than the standard repayment plan - at which point they would be relegated to the standard repayment plan so that they are automatically paying the least amount possible per month (unless if they have previously determined to repay in the graduated plan). Suggesting that not everyone will qualify for the IBR as being a bad thing is disingenuous; anyone who it will help will qualify, regardless of their job (so, there is not a shortage of IBR jobs out there since there is no such thing as an "IBR job" other than a job that is low-paying). If your income level is to the point where you would actually be paying more on a monthly basis in an IBR repayment plan than a standard repayment plan, then you will be barred from the IBR repayment and forced into the standard repayment plan for your own benefit (though you can obviously transfer to the graduated plan or make additional payments outside of the plan to reduce the time you're paying off your loans).

So, any and everyone with federal loans can and should sign up for IBR. They will qualify if they have a low-paying job. They will only be rejected if their standard payment plan would actually cost them less per month than the IBR plan. By signing up for the IBR, you are ensuring you will be relegated to the repayment plan that will cost you least per month. There is no IBR shortage.


Anyways, this is just a small footnote to your otherwise valid post.

[honestabe84]

Maybe the C grads aren't getting jobs because they're awkward as hell. The only two kids I know who go to C completely lack social skills. Not that I believe in Him but god typically doesn't give everything to everybody you know...if you can hit a 175 chances are something's going to be lacking. But hey i'm just throwing that out there I have no idea.

+1 For each point you score above 170 the more likely it is that you lack social skills.

[savesthedayajb]

Maybe the C grads aren't getting jobs because they're awkward as hell. The only two kids I know who go to C completely lack social skills. Not that I believe in Him but god typically doesn't give everything to everybody you know...if you can hit a 175 chances are something's going to be lacking. But hey i'm just throwing that out there I have no idea.

+1 For each point you score above 170 the more likely it is that you lack social skills.

Haters

[imisscollege]

haha shit i got a 168 but yeah every H/C grad, admit, or student I have met was at least somewhat awkward. Everything I have heard from hiring partners indicates that this is a common issue for interviews with kids from top schools. But I'm sure that specific problem hasn't gotten worse and that the now ridic numbers are from ITE although one has to assume at at least 50 of the 125 are not great interviewers.

[honestabe84]

haha shit i got a 168 but yeah every H/C grad, admit, or student I have met was at least somewhat awkward. Everything I have heard from hiring partners indicates that this is a common issue for interviews with kids from top schools. But I'm sure that specific problem hasn't gotten worse and that the now ridic numbers are from ITE although one has to assume at at least 50 of the 125 are not great interviewers.

I wonder if being socially awkward even really matters for most biglaw jobs. It seems like all they need is someone smart that they can put in a closet somewhere and do research.