Handong International Law School (Non-ABA-Approved)

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motiontodismiss
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Re: Handong International Law School (Non-ABA-Approved)

Postby motiontodismiss » Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:41 am

doomed123 wrote:
firebreathingliberal wrote:Quit bashing a school in another country... especially since it is apparent that none of you have a grasp on the S. Korean legal system.


I may be mistaken, but judging from this passage...

"The Handong International Law School program provides students with a comprehensive U.S. academic program sufficient in scope and intensity to prepare persons for bar exams in the United States. The program meets the academic course requirements set forth by the American Bar Association that accredits U.S. law schools. While formal accreditation by the ABA is not available to schools outside the U.S. and Canada, we have sought wherever possible to comply with ABA expectations, and in many instances, exceed them. Our course coverage, total credit hours, and required core courses exceed ABA requirements. In 2003-4, we anticipate inviting leading legal educators from ABA accredited schools to visit Handong and evaluate our program."

...it sounds like they're training graduates to practice in the US legal system (with a degree that will hold zero weight over here). It's hard to tell though, as their entire "career" page is just a bunch of vague nonsense about the "wide range" "callings" outside of actual law practice, and some equally vague claims about establishing "relationships" with unnamed US law schools. It really seems like a scam.


+1.

Almost everything South Korean is a scam anyway. Especially when it comes to education.

edinbourgh
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Re: Handong International Law School (Non-ABA-Approved)

Postby edinbourgh » Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:09 am

My girl friend mentioned this school to me a few months ago. It depends on what your definition of scam is.
People who graduate from there can only take the bar exam in a few states in the U.S., namely the ones that don't require a J.D. from a law school to take it.
I assume it's for people who have exhausted their chances at going to a more legit American law school.
She went to undergrad there, and it's not really a cult-like experience. It's more like a super-Christian experience with a significant number of the accompanying in-your-face religious types.
They promoted it heavily when it opened, but I haven't heard a pip about it in the last few years. ( Except from my friend, of course. )

BTW, bashing all of S. Korean education due to some unethical and/or dipshit outliers = not cool.

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Hattori Hanzo
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Re: Handong International Law School (Non-ABA-Approved)

Postby Hattori Hanzo » Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:20 am

edinbourgh wrote:My girl friend mentioned this school to me a few months ago. It depends on what your definition of scam is.
People who graduate from there can only take the bar exam in a few states in the U.S., namely the ones that don't require a J.D. from a law school to take it.
I assume it's for people who have exhausted their chances at going to a more legit American law school.
She went to undergrad there, and it's not really a cult-like experience. It's more like a super-Christian experience with a significant number of the accompanying in-your-face religious types.


That sounds like a cult alright. Also, if someone can't get into anything that's more legit than this school (and that include some shady institutions in the US), perhaps going to law school is a very bad idea.

motiontodismiss
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Re: Handong International Law School (Non-ABA-Approved)

Postby motiontodismiss » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:20 am

edinbourgh wrote:
BTW, bashing all of S. Korean education due to some unethical and/or dipshit outliers = not cool.


Fact of the matter is, S. Korean education only succeeds in making students hate school and accomplishes nothing. It's overstandardized, rote memorization-based approach helps no one.

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presh
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Re: Handong International Law School (Non-ABA-Approved)

Postby presh » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:38 am

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motiontodismiss
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Re: Handong International Law School (Non-ABA-Approved)

Postby motiontodismiss » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:47 am

presh wrote:
motiontodismiss wrote:
edinbourgh wrote:
BTW, bashing all of S. Korean education due to some unethical and/or dipshit outliers = not cool.


Fact of the matter is, S. Korean education only succeeds in making students hate school and accomplishes nothing. It's overstandardized, rote memorization-based approach helps no one.


South Korean students outperform US students in math and science. So, it accomplishes something.


And underperform in just about everything else. I'm talking about higher ed though. Have you seen a S. Korean university curriculum? You get in, you coast your way through, and 4 years later, they give you a diploma whether you failed your classes or not. Higher ed achieves nothing.

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presh
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Re: Handong International Law School (Non-ABA-Approved)

Postby presh » Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:30 pm

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motiontodismiss
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Re: Handong International Law School (Non-ABA-Approved)

Postby motiontodismiss » Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:59 pm

presh wrote:Ah. Higher education I know nothing about. Just out of curiosity, how are you familiar with South Korean education? Study abroad? Live there?

I haven't seen an studies regarding younger students on anything other than math and science that included South Korea.

Honestly, I think rote memorization (at least combined with other methods) gets a bad rap.


My dad is a professor in South Korea. Spent elementary school there. Have friends that went through the entire system through high school. Actually Korean schools teach nothing but rote memorization which is my beef with them. It think rote memorization is necessary, but I also think that students need to learn to be able to take disparate pieces of information and fit them together into something useful-let's take language education for example. The focus is on vocab and memorization of grammatical structures. No instruction whatsoever on colloquialisms, idiomatic usage and conversation. It's the equivalent of a French teacher teaching students nothing but verb conjugations completely out of context-so the student knows the subjunctive conjugation of every verb known to the French language but can't use the subjunctive in normal writing or conversation to save their lives.

CordeliusX
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Re: Handong International Law School (Non-ABA-Approved)

Postby CordeliusX » Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:45 pm

Could be a great way to prepare you for USA LS. Seriously, I bet that would look like a great soft if you could justify why you didnt apply to a US school to begin with and how you ended up in Korea. If you taught English there and then took a year of this law school, could be a great thing. It's like you went to law school, but didn't... so you're still fair game to apply as a "fresh" 0L student.

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ihurtmyselftoday
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Re: Handong International Law School (Non-ABA-Approved)

Postby ihurtmyselftoday » Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:00 pm

CordeliusX wrote:Could be a great way to prepare you for USA LS. Seriously, I bet that would look like a great soft if you could justify why you didnt apply to a US school to begin with and how you ended up in Korea. If you taught English there and then took a year of this law school, could be a great thing. It's like you went to law school, but didn't... so you're still fair game to apply as a "fresh" 0L student.


No.

doomed123
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Re: Handong International Law School (Non-ABA-Approved)

Postby doomed123 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:30 pm

CordeliusX wrote:Could be a great way to prepare you for USA LS. Seriously, I bet that would look like a great soft if you could justify why you didnt apply to a US school to begin with and how you ended up in Korea. If you taught English there and then took a year of this law school, could be a great thing. It's like you went to law school, but didn't... so you're still fair game to apply as a "fresh" 0L student.


I'm not sure that having to explain away a questionable decision counts as a great soft.

edinbourgh
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Re: Handong International Law School (Non-ABA-Approved)

Postby edinbourgh » Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:52 am

motiontodismiss wrote:
presh wrote:Ah. Higher education I know nothing about. Just out of curiosity, how are you familiar with South Korean education? Study abroad? Live there?

I haven't seen an studies regarding younger students on anything other than math and science that included South Korea.

Honestly, I think rote memorization (at least combined with other methods) gets a bad rap.


My dad is a professor in South Korea. Spent elementary school there. Have friends that went through the entire system through high school. Actually Korean schools teach nothing but rote memorization which is my beef with them. It think rote memorization is necessary, but I also think that students need to learn to be able to take disparate pieces of information and fit them together into something useful-let's take language education for example. The focus is on vocab and memorization of grammatical structures. No instruction whatsoever on colloquialisms, idiomatic usage and conversation. It's the equivalent of a French teacher teaching students nothing but verb conjugations completely out of context-so the student knows the subjunctive conjugation of every verb known to the French language but can't use the subjunctive in normal writing or conversation to save their lives.


You said,
"Fact of the matter is, S. Korean education only succeeds in making students hate school and accomplishes nothing. It's overstandardized, rote memorization-based approach helps no one."

I agree that S. Korean education may have been relatively more standardized and rote memorization-based than that of certain other countries. However, you cannot say that your above statement is not an overgeneralization. Are you seriously saying that everyone who went through the system "hate(s) school and accomplishes nothing?" Besides, even if we say that standardization and rote memorization is a bad thing, which has not yet been absolutely proven, the situation has been changing significantly. Younger generations are getting exposed to different ways of learning now much more than when you or I were in elementary school.

You also said, "Have you seen a S. Korean university curriculum? You get in, you coast your way through, and 4 years later, they give you a diploma whether you failed your classes or not. Higher ed achieves nothing."

I can attest to my experiences with higher education here.
There are coasters in universities of every country. There are diploma mills in every country. However, there is also a significant number of students here who get into the competitive programs and have to bust their balls to succeed. No institution/program worthy of any respect or worth bringing up here will let you graduate even if you failed classes. Are you seriously saying that every student from Seoul National and co. have achieved nothing in their four years at school?

I only add to this conversation because I've experienced higher ed not only in the states but also Korea and Europe. Lumping all Korean college students makes about as much sense as lumping all American college students together.
The only thing that can be said with certainty is that the education experience leading up to college is different in each country/area, and will result in students who have focused on some skills more than others pre-college years. However, it's meaningless to say one method is completely superior to another because eventually when one reaches higher ed the burden is upon the student to take more control of his or her education and make up for whatever he or she has missed/is lacking. Exceptional students can be cultivated regardless of how they were taught when they were a child.

motiontodismiss
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Re: Handong International Law School (Non-ABA-Approved)

Postby motiontodismiss » Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:41 am

The American method has proven itself to be more effective. It's meaningless to compare the results of the exceptional student-on both ends of the spectrum. The top and bottom 5% will be that way regardless. I find the average American student to be more intelligent than the average Korean student.

So if the Korean system isn't such a complete failure, why is every smart student in Korea gunning to study at boarding schools and college abroad (usu. Canada, US, UK, Australia, NZ)? Clearly the students themselves and the parents are dissatisfied-and they're voting with their feet. Many study abroad, get jobs there, and never go back. Some go back only to repeat the vicious cycle of sending their own progeny overseas to be educated. However, I will admit that it's easier to get a decent paying job in the US with an H1B than it is to get a full time job in Korea.

edinbourgh
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Re: Handong International Law School (Non-ABA-Approved)

Postby edinbourgh » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:03 am

motiontodismiss wrote:The American method has proven itself to be more effective. It's meaningless to compare the results of the exceptional student-on both ends of the spectrum. The top and bottom 5% will be that way regardless. I find the average American student to be more intelligent than the average Korean student.

So if the Korean system isn't such a complete failure, why is every smart student in Korea gunning to study at boarding schools and college abroad (usu. Canada, US, UK, Australia, NZ)? Clearly the students themselves and the parents are dissatisfied-and they're voting with their feet. Many study abroad, get jobs there, and never go back. Some go back only to repeat the vicious cycle of sending their own progeny overseas to be educated. However, I will admit that it's easier to get a decent paying job in the US with an H1B than it is to get a full time job in Korea.


I could challenge this, "I find the average American student to be more intelligent than the average Korean student," by saying hypothetically that in my case I found the average American student was a drooling stoner while the average Korean student was doing a Ph.D at MIT.
Our respective personal experiences/impressions don't really hold water in this argument.

Besides, if you're going to be talking about INTELLIGENCE, you could even bring up issues such as intelligence disparities due to genetics/ ethnicity / environment, but that's irrelevant since we're only talking about Korean higher education.

Re. students going abroad: I'm actually glad you brought that up.

Does the fact that some, even many (because it's clearly not EVERY) smart student is studying abroad indicate that foreign education MUST be absolutely better for everyone? Not necessarily. You have to factor in the importance of English these days, regardless of what country you're talking about, and that's not even a uniquely S. Korean issue. It's valuable in most of the Asian countries and even in European ones. Why? Because the English-speaking market is ridiculously huge and it includes the U.S.

S. Korea is a tiny tiny place. It's about the size of Indiana. The fact that there's a huge population in a small area, especially Seoul, is going to influence a lot of people in wanting to go abroad and live elsewhere. That's a quality of life issue.
People here also still believe in the American Dream and it being a land of meritocracy.
These are relevant factors that fly in the face of simply concluding that "It's the education driving everyone abroad."

It should also be mentioned that studying abroad gives you an advantage during job interviews because of the English factor. Interviewees are chosen on the basis of resumes, and the only way they currently do that is by looking at undergrad prestige and English scores a la TOEFL. If you're beneath a certain score you never get called in for interviews. So what should one do? You try to go abroad, and you send your kids abroad if you are financially able.

I find it silly that we're even derailing the thread with this issue.

All I'm trying to say is that there's much more to the issue than "Korean Education = hideous" and "Foreign Education = wonderful."

In fact, it's the large number of people who unequivocally think just that (not just Korean parents) and willingly shell out ridiculously huge amounts of tuition to send their kids to crappy TTT colleges abroad who perpetuate the myth. It actually works out well for the increasing number of foreign students like me going to college here, though. We get Harvard / Oxford educated professors and a great education for only a fraction of the price.

My point:
Some Korean institutions are on par with some respected and more well-known foreign institutions. I would appreciate it if one would not knock all of them unless one has actually actually studied at both types.

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Re: Handong International Law School (Non-ABA-Approved)

Postby holydonkey » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:22 am


motiontodismiss
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Re: Handong International Law School (Non-ABA-Approved)

Postby motiontodismiss » Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:22 am

Fair enough. But given that SNU has about as much credibility abroad as NYU does, they're not all that successful at turning out and retaining smart people.

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Re: Handong International Law School (Non-ABA-Approved)

Postby handongprof » Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:38 am

I have read the many coments on Handong International Law School (HILS) with interest, although I confess I rolled my eyes several times. Since I actually teach at HILS and thus know a few facts about the place, please allow me to shatter some of your illusions (or perhaps prejudices) and describe the place.

1. Of the school's total graduates, well over 100 (amounting to approximately 60% of all graduates) have taken and passed a U.S. bar exam. Not quite comparable to Harvard rates but certainly not a "worthless piece of paper."

2. I graduated from a top-ten U.S. law school and then worked for 25 years for one of the best law firms in the United States. I would pit HILS' top graduates against the graduates of any number of schools. They are brilliant, and they know the law.

3. The undertone of anti-religious bigotry in many of the posts is quite disturbing. Some posters seem to believe that there is something fundamentally inconsistent between being a religious institution and beiong a serious academic institution. You are wrong. In fact, many of the most acclaimed academic institutions in the US began as religious institutions, and many of them continue to have a religious affiliation. That being said, you should not consider HILS if you don't want your legal education to be evaluated through the prism of a Christian worldview. If you do want that approach, however, HILS is an excellent choice.

4. In fact, some of you who seem to react instinctively against anything related to God or the Bible might pause to consider the possibility that the Bible and belief that humans are created in the image of God may have played a considerable role in the development of the whole idea of government by the rule of law rather than by the whim of the strong. Sure there have been countless instances of abuse by religious authorities, but an honest analysis will show that the development of American democracy, limited government and the rule of law was closely tied to biblical principles.

5. Finally, there is nothing wrong with having read the Bible 40 times. I wish I had done so. Nor is there anything wrong with having a Black Belt in Taekwondo. (That might have come in handy on occasion if I had developed that skill as well.) The professors in question are also US lawyers with years of experience in both practice and teaching.

6. More to the point, we at HILS would love to have qualified students as applicants from the US or elsewhere. Most of our students are Koreans who plan to practice as US law specialists in Korea but we have had students from approximately 20 nations.

7. A final note. The blasts on Korean education, although landing some decent blows, strike me as a tad xenophobic. For all the faults of Korean education -- and one can obviously point to quite a few flaws in the US educational system as well -- most Koreans are remarkably well-educated. They know a lot more about you than you know about them. There are boths strengths and weaknesses in a system that relies heavily upon memorization; moreover, it is an exaggeration to say that the Korean system relies exclusively upon memorization. In any event, this has nothing to do with HILS, which teaches on a US-model, albeit one coupled with a Christian perspective.
Last edited by handongprof on Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Handong International Law School (Non-ABA-Approved)

Postby shoeshine » Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:44 am

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