Top Law Schools

green_esqs_n_ham wrote:I worked for an attorney that probably had Asperger's. He had a lot of the same difficulties with speaking and socializing. He was very pensive and took his time carefully and meticulously writing all his motions and appeals. He studied the law constantly and patiently. He was an absolute perfectionist, always taking his time and constantly pondering rather than stating a conclusion.

The odd thing is, somehow when he was in court he would appear to be a different man. He was easily one of the most persuasive lawyers I've ever seen argue. I asked him about it, because I was surprised, and he told me that is the only place where he gets into his zone and that he relied on many hours of preparation and years of practice.

A lot of introverted ppl take on performing, speaking, etc for exactly this reason. It allows them to step outside themselves and be expressive in a way their introversion doesn't allow them to be. Many actors and musicians are surprisingly extremely introverted ppl.

The OP hasn't indicated any reason why he is interested in law school nor has he taken the LSAT so there is no reasonable way to assess whether or not he is suitable for law school or a legal career without more specific information about him & his interests & goals.
Confidence that one will do well on the LSAT is wonderful but meaningless.

You'll be fine but you'll find yourself working a lot.

Class discussions (Socratic Method) might be intimidating for you but your not graded by your answers, just the final exam.

As for the exam, you'll just need to practice Hypo's more than average to build up your issue spotting speed.

For all the reading, I would recommend using supplements to speed up the process of going through cases.

Good luck.

There's actually quite a bit of research that shows that "slow" laborious learners are often the ones who end up retaining information better and longer than those who are traditionally considered quick learners. Case in point from personal experience just yesterday, I was talking with a 2L, who is a quick study, about conversion (Torts) and causation, primary and secondary. Just asked him some simple questions because I had been reading up on it, and he couldn't remember a thing.

If you don't give yourself a chance to pursue law because you fear you may not fit the stereotypical lawyer you will not ony be selling yourself short, but the legal profession itself. It takes all kinds, and you sound like you have the metal it takes to persevere and become a great lawyer.

Your social skills will improve over time, and especially as you gain a foothold in your career and see yourself and your abilities reflected in your work.

Keep us all posted!

CanadianWolf wrote:The OP hasn't indicated any reason why he is interested in law school nor has he taken the LSAT so there is no reasonable way to assess whether or not he is suitable for law school or a legal career without more specific information about him & his interests & goals.
Confidence that one will do well on the LSAT is wonderful but meaningless.

Look, having a personality that fits the profession is necessary for him to be happy with his choice, and having a good LSAT is necessary for him to pursue his choice. He's asking about whether he has the requisite personality to be happy with the choice, not about the feasibility of pursuing it. He's not retarded, he can fit the pieces together himself. He just wants to know if those two specific things should be of concern to him independent of other factors. Try to use your imagination and calm your ADD for 9 full seconds, and assume for the sake of answering the q that he already has a good LSAT score ... then answer his question. Yes, we all get that the LSAT is important, but he needs to decide if he even wants to pursue this path in the first place first before investing in getting a good LSAT score.

consequence3 wrote:What's up law people? This is my first post, but I've lurked a bit.

Background information: I'm a junior at a top-10 school, ~3.80 GPA in a major of medium difficulty, good at academics across the board (dabbled in everything from English to math). I don't have an LSAT score yet but feel confident in that area.

On paper I look good, but in all the soft areas I am very different (in a negative way) from other students at my school looking at law school.

I'm a slow thinker. This is relative, of course, but I seem to operate one gear lower compared to my pre-law friends. They can read a book a day, I take a whole week. They can write papers in a few hours, I take a few days. The quality of my work is solid, but it takes me a long time. I also can't keep up in conversations or class discussions. I don't mean to sound like I'm left drooling on my notepad, but I notice my mind overheat working to catch up. Lawyers should be sharp and quick on their feet, right?

I have bad speaking skills. Naturally, my slow thinking speed already has a negative impact on my speaking ability. However, I should mention that my speaking ability is independently quite bad. Though I consider myself a good writer, I find it difficult to communicate in speech (poor voice quality, monotone, thoughts get jumbled). Thus, while my GPA is good due to my essay writing, I mostly sound like a moron in class. Even when I have something good to say, the presentation kills it. Lawyers should be eloquent and persuasive, right?

I'm not very social. I'm introverted and far from outgoing. I do a lot of peer tutoring and find myself exhausted by the experience, mostly the social aspect of meeting many new people. Law always struck me as a profession for those confident and outgoing. Of course this one characteristic of mine ties in heavily with the other two.

Well, what do you guys think? I have (or expect to get) the stats for a top law school. But all my personal qualities make me almost the exact opposite of what one would expect of a successful lawyer. Comments, advice?

Wow, you sound just like me. Perhaps we have the same problem, if we do, in fact, have some sort of problem. My dad's just like you, too, so I would assume that this is a heritable condition.

kn6542 wrote:Introversion doesn't mean you don't have social skills or don't like ppl, it just means that you feel drained by too much socializing. Extroverts are the opposite, they get energy from being around ppl. Think about this in the context of the work you might do as a lawyer. A lot of lawyering is solitary--writing, researching, reading, etc. This is the case in law school and practicing in most areas of law. A lot of very extroverted ppl who go into law have trouble with this bc they get tired and drained if they engage in too much solitary activity. I think you'll find that a lot of law students and lawyers are actually pretty introverted ppl. You can learn the networking, the team work, etc. None of that is impossible simply because you enjoy your solitude. You might not be the life of the party all the time, but you don't need to be. I really don't think you need to worry about this. a hard skill to learn for perfectionists, but you can do that.

THIS. This is why I need to get out of journalism. I like the concept of being an investigative reporter, but gawd I hate calling people. Obviously it's a necessary part of newsgathering, but I HATE IT. It makes me feel so uncomfortable and nervous when it really shouldn't.

Thanks for the posts! You all have interesting points and perspectives.

I'm drawn to law because I like analytic writing-based work. I prefer technical to literary. I feel I'm a bureaucrat with an intellectual tinge. My favorite internship was making standardized test questions. There, I felt most comfortable with the philosophy PhD's, which was not surprising because that's my major.

I also had a short stint at a federal court. The law clerks made my head swim. They were just so talkative and, almost to my frustration, so damn interesting to listen to. While I understand that most law degree-holders will not perform roles directly involving speech performance or impromptu reasoning, those abilities seem required de facto simply because of the kind of people populating the profession and the kind of work environment they create.

Just to make clear, my concerns about my thinking speed are not due, at least not entirely, to perfectionism or being around cocky peers. I had a Weschler test done a few years back, and my processing speed lags considerably behind all the other components. I think this alone constitutes a learning disorder. In any case, I'm sure I could convince a psychologist (as I did my previous one) that I have some disorder or another. But that doesn't help me unless I want to get meds (which I don't).

I'll consider taking up a speech-related performance activity again. Last time, I was pretty bad at it, and I didn't enjoy being around the other members (most of whom, surprise, were aspiring lawyers).

I'm glad there are people similar to me who became successful lawyers. I guess I'll need that special niche.

kn6542 wrote:

CanadianWolf wrote:The OP hasn't indicated any reason why he is interested in law school nor has he taken the LSAT so there is no reasonable way to assess whether or not he is suitable for law school or a legal career without more specific information about him & his interests & goals.
Confidence that one will do well on the LSAT is wonderful but meaningless.

Look, having a personality that fits the profession is necessary for him to be happy with his choice, and having a good LSAT is necessary for him to pursue his choice. He's asking about whether he has the requisite personality to be happy with the choice, not about the feasibility of pursuing it. He's not retarded, he can fit the pieces together himself. He just wants to know if those two specific things should be of concern to him independent of other factors. Try to use your imagination and calm your ADD for 9 full seconds, and assume for the sake of answering the q that he already has a good LSAT score ... then answer his question. Yes, we all get that the LSAT is important, but he needs to decide if he even wants to pursue this path in the first place first before investing in getting a good LSAT score.

+1

To the OP, I don't think you should have a problem personality wise.

consequence3 wrote:Thanks for the posts! You all have interesting points and perspectives.

I'm drawn to law because I like analytic writing-based work. I prefer technical to literary. I feel I'm a bureaucrat with an intellectual tinge. My favorite internship was making standardized test questions. There, I felt most comfortable with the philosophy PhD's, which was not surprising because that's my major.

I also had a short stint at a federal court. The law clerks made my head swim. They were just so talkative and, almost to my frustration, so damn interesting to listen to. While I understand that most law degree-holders will not perform roles directly involving speech performance or impromptu reasoning, those abilities seem required de facto simply because of the kind of people populating the profession and the kind of work environment they create.

Just to make clear, my concerns about my thinking speed are not due, at least not entirely, to perfectionism or being around cocky peers. I had a Weschler test done a few years back, and my processing speed lags considerably behind all the other components. I think this alone constitutes a learning disorder. In any case, I'm sure I could convince a psychologist (as I did my previous one) that I have some disorder or another. But that doesn't help me unless I want to get meds (which I don't).

I'll consider taking up a speech-related performance activity again. Last time, I was pretty bad at it, and I didn't enjoy being around the other members (most of whom, surprise, were aspiring lawyers).

I'm glad there are people similar to me who became successful lawyers. I guess I'll need that special niche.

Last year I got to work with a few Harvard 1Ls. At first I was intimidated by them. Like you I am introverted and slow. I have a learning disability plus I am about ten years older than these kids. A few weeks into working with them I realized that their bravado was covering up how insecure they were. One later confessed that the other 1Ls were intimidated by me. She said that because I was older and quiet that they thought I was just barely tolerating them. She said they also thought I was experienced and knew what I was doing. Nothing could have been further from the truth. The fact was that I started volunteering about a week before they did, they just assumed that I had been there for a while because I was there before them. It is very silly how our assumptions sort of take on a life of their own.
I know a few lawyers that are not sociable. They like to keep their noses in the books and they keep their door shut at the office. Judges are infamous for being alone, introverted and even anti-social.

consequence3 wrote:What's up law people? This is my first post, but I've lurked a bit.

Background information: I'm a junior at a top-10 school, ~3.80 GPA in a major of medium difficulty, good at academics across the board (dabbled in everything from English to math). I don't have an LSAT score yet but feel confident in that area.

On paper I look good, but in all the soft areas I am very different (in a negative way) from other students at my school looking at law school.

I'm a slow thinker. This is relative, of course, but I seem to operate one gear lower compared to my pre-law friends. They can read a book a day, I take a whole week. They can write papers in a few hours, I take a few days. The quality of my work is solid, but it takes me a long time. I also can't keep up in conversations or class discussions. I don't mean to sound like I'm left drooling on my notepad, but I notice my mind overheat working to catch up. Lawyers should be sharp and quick on their feet, right?

I have bad speaking skills. Naturally, my slow thinking speed already has a negative impact on my speaking ability. However, I should mention that my speaking ability is independently quite bad. Though I consider myself a good writer, I find it difficult to communicate in speech (poor voice quality, monotone, thoughts get jumbled). Thus, while my GPA is good due to my essay writing, I mostly sound like a moron in class. Even when I have something good to say, the presentation kills it. Lawyers should be eloquent and persuasive, right?

I'm not very social. I'm introverted and far from outgoing. I do a lot of peer tutoring and find myself exhausted by the experience, mostly the social aspect of meeting many new people. Law always struck me as a profession for those confident and outgoing. Of course this one characteristic of mine ties in heavily with the other two.

Well, what do you guys think? I have (or expect to get) the stats for a top law school. But all my personal qualities make me almost the exact opposite of what one would expect of a successful lawyer. Comments, advice?

Trial law and litigation may not be up your alley but there is transactional law too. You might find yourself excelling in an area like tax law.

The OP sounds like he is on the autistic spectrum?

From everything written about lawyers and big law firms, the OP is the standard personality for big law. Introverted, terrible social skills, perfectionistic and a poor communicator: most lawyers. While that probably won't make law fun for everyone else, I'm not sure why it should discourage him from following this path. Get to --LinkRemoved-- and spend some time on autoadmit to understand the standards of the industry you are about to enter (hint: the John Grisham/James bond type superlitigator who beds women at night and quips all day does not exist).

Having just spent the last 8 months delivering a project with someone who (no offense) sounds exactly like you, I am doing exactly the same and making sure I pick an area of law most conducive to extroverts and networking in a city most conducive to extroverts and networking (DC - couldn't pay me to do NY biglaw for this reason). The industry should be big and varied enough to accomodate all types of personalities, I'd think. Also, I don't think you need to find something 'boring' sounding like Tax Law or something unprestigious - does anyone really think that the people at Wachtell are social butterflies? Cos I'd bet serious money that at least 1/2 of them are on the spectrum. There's a very long thread from someone who interviewed there on autoadmit and the consensus was that people who are happy billing those kind of hours (i.e. never seeing the sun) are likely to be a bit (read very) weird and that was very much borne out by the experience of those who interviewed there or ever interacted with them. Reality is that unless you want to do very specific things in litigation, I can't see how being an introvert would hurt you that much. Most legal work is done alone.

Everyone else is right that independently trying to improve on those skills can only help your career and so it is worth doing them for yourself. This is the kind of industry which rewards people for catching typos in a long document - it's not Hollywood or anything. I think you'll be fine.

OP, i feel like your self-description fits me perfectly...i'm not outgoing (i'm perfectly fine just to stay in my room for days and do my own stuff and i prefer people not to come and initiate conversations with me), i don't make unnecessary calls, i have poor speaking skills even in day-to-day convos with friends/family etc., and it's certainly not helping with english being a second-language for me. i also read extremely slowly, in fact i can rarely finish reading a book, and normally it takes me 2 weeks time to do a good essay. and i totally understand what you mean by 'sounding like a moron in class'! but at the same time, i don't see myself as having any personality disorder, i think it's just the many different ways that people do things, for me it just takes a whole lot more time and concentration to do well. there are so many different areas of law that require different skills, certainly being sociable is like a must, but i'm sure there are some fields that need more of it than others. i'm not sure what exactly i want to do with a law degree yet, but being an academic is not a bad idea at all. i think being hardworking is an important factor to succeed in law school, and i'm sure you are hardworking, with the grades you've achieved. i am often amazed by the quality of arguments that i make on papers, which i can NEVER ever be able to express verbally. but i mean, as long as you can express yourself one way or another, particularly with a subject that is still very much paper/exam based, why not give it a go?

PDaddy wrote:If you have to ask...the answer is probably "yes". Law students need, first and foremost, to be confident in their abilities, confident in their decision to pursue a legal degree and confident that they will make great contributions to the profession. And they need to be happy.

If you have to ask it means you're being rational. And I think part of law school is learning how to be confident. A lot of 22 year olds are still growing up.

creatinganalt wrote:The OP sounds like he is on the autistic spectrum?

Actually, he really doesn't.

Get a position at a law firm this summer and check the place out. Thats what I did before choosing to be a lawyer. (This happened to be in Mexico and I chose a firm which isn't representative of the profession but the advised strategy usually work.)

Hi you sound a lot like me. Yes with that personality, research scientist is great but it does not mean you should be restricted to that position. You should always seek out what you want to to do.

I am in law school right now and yes you are gonna be surrounded by a lot of quick-witted people - by that I mean people who think fast and respond on their feet (there is one girl right now in one of my classes who is just superior at that and I can really see her as a trial lawyer; her questions are smart, right on the point but I can tell she's had a lot of legal experience compared to the average joe in law school). Sometimes I wonder: if I am graded on a curve with people like that, where am I going to end up in terms of class ranking? Just by class participation, she's light years ahead of others.

However, I do believe that some people are the way they are because of their upbringing, life experiences that push them to think fast on their feet. In a sense, thinking fast is an acquired skill. They are ahead of you by the time you all enter law school but it does not mean they are better or smarter. "Acquired" skill means it can be learned and you just have to expose yourself to uncomfortable situations (lawyers do encounter awkward situations and you have to figure out what to do). My parents are still wondering if I am in the right field since I have never been a very argumentative person; and I am not the kind that is the life of a party or a group leader if there are team projects. I am socially awkward and I don't have many friends. I can be incoherent when I am nervous. Sometimes I do worry if I am cut out for law school. But in my time at law school, I have really pushed myself out of my little comfort zone and do what I can to work on my weaknesses. I know for a fact that I am not gonna be a trial lawyer and I want to use my science background to work in IP transactions whenever that will happen.

Figure out what kind of law you want to (not every area of law requires an outgoing personality) and use law school as an opportunity to work on your social interaction skill as well.

Good luck! You're definitely not alone.

People are right that there are definitely corners of legal practice that are good for introverts. Tax, especially, comes to mind. However, it's one thing to be shy and introverted. It's quite another thing to lack oral communications skills. At its heart, being a lawyer--even a nonlitigator--is about advising clients. A lawyer has to be able to explain problems and solutions effectively. Just as important, a lawyer has to win the confidence of his clients. A tax lawyer might be able to do all his work from his office, without having to socialize or go on beauty contests, but he has to be able to speak confidently and persuasively about issues that are often complicated and shifting.

OP, if you believe your oral communications skills are really lacking, I'd urge you to do some of the things other posters have suggested--Toastmasters, etc. Skill in written communications, which you have, is essential, but there's just no way of avoiding having to talk to clients. And, when you're in an industry whose business model is the billable hour, speed and consiseness are highly valued.

This is stupid. Just go find out what different lawyer jobs are all about. People here mostly don't know. You have to go talk to actual attorneys. Decide if you want to pursue one of these jobs. Find out what it takes to get that job. Take the LSAT and see if you can get into a school that gives you a shot at that job. The LSAT requires fast thinking and your confidence that you will do well is naive - famous last words. Social skills and speaking skills are learned, not innate. Introverts can have great social skills and speaking skills just like extroverts. It's not even necessarily harder for an introvert to learn these skills, though it might require effort that is more deliberate since extroverts naturally throw themselves into more social situations. Social skills are useful in any job and probably necessary to truly excel in just about anything.

Similar to what most of the post's said, have faith in yourself. Don't compare yourself to your pre-law friends because they aren't law students. You know your strengths, you know your ability. Take those and push toward whatever goal you want.

kn6542 wrote:

creatinganalt wrote:The OP sounds like he is on the autistic spectrum?

Actually, he really doesn't.

+1 and lol...

Welcome to a culture that diagnoses every abnormality (even though in this case the OP is hardly abnormal) as a serious medical condition.

You sound like a smart kid OP. Law can be done from an intellectual point of view. Just develop your intellect and learn how to read a lecture or opinion and you can be richard posner for a living. Or you can make the big money doing transactional work alone in an office. Not every lawyer need to be a charismatic litigator. In fact, one litigator I've met had one of the most monotone voices I've ever heard.

I PM'ed you OP.

I'm still a junior in undergrad too and can't really comment on much.
However, some of the people I know who did very well in law school are very introverted.
Writing skills are more important than speaking skills for law school.
From what I know of lawyers.. the one thing you probably will want to work on is your ability to speak well what you write well. That's what a lot of lawyers train themselves to do.

Also, I think a lot of law professors would prefer to have the "quiet kid who thinks carefully" than the "loudmouth idiot who annoys the class with inane comments".

It's good that you're aware of your weaknesses.
It's tough to say if you're actually weak in these areas because I'm not in a classroom with you.
What you think could be "moronic", everyone else could be thinking what you say is "brilliant".

OP:
Thank you for providing relevant info. Based on the content of your last post, I think that you will have a difficult time during your first year of law school. The LSAT might be a very important indicator in your case with respect to first year law school performance. Your grades might be a bit misleading as, at least to the best of my knowledge, philosophy course work is largely based on writing assignments with relaxed time restraints. You will experience the opposite during the first year of law school & this type of first year law school experience is replicated to a large extent by the LSAT.
The issue as to whether you can practice law is quite different than whether you can do well in law school. I think that you can practice law, but that it will be in an environment that is tolerant of your needs.
Although several posters have attempted to diagnose your "condition", that was not your question & this is not a medical website.
Until you take the LSAT & receive your results there is little solid advice to offer regarding your suitability for law school. note that most of the posters on this website are college students anticipating attending law school or law students finishing up their first year of law school.

MURPH wrote:

consequence3 wrote:Thanks for the posts! You all have interesting points and perspectives.

I'm drawn to law because I like analytic writing-based work. I prefer technical to literary. I feel I'm a bureaucrat with an intellectual tinge. My favorite internship was making standardized test questions. There, I felt most comfortable with the philosophy PhD's, which was not surprising because that's my major.

I also had a short stint at a federal court. The law clerks made my head swim. They were just so talkative and, almost to my frustration, so damn interesting to listen to. While I understand that most law degree-holders will not perform roles directly involving speech performance or impromptu reasoning, those abilities seem required de facto simply because of the kind of people populating the profession and the kind of work environment they create.

Just to make clear, my concerns about my thinking speed are not due, at least not entirely, to perfectionism or being around cocky peers. I had a Weschler test done a few years back, and my processing speed lags considerably behind all the other components. I think this alone constitutes a learning disorder. In any case, I'm sure I could convince a psychologist (as I did my previous one) that I have some disorder or another. But that doesn't help me unless I want to get meds (which I don't).

I'll consider taking up a speech-related performance activity again. Last time, I was pretty bad at it, and I didn't enjoy being around the other members (most of whom, surprise, were aspiring lawyers).

I'm glad there are people similar to me who became successful lawyers. I guess I'll need that special niche.

Last year I got to work with a few Harvard 1Ls. At first I was intimidated by them. Like you I am introverted and slow. I have a learning disability plus I am about ten years older than these kids. A few weeks into working with them I realized that their bravado was covering up how insecure they were. One later confessed that the other 1Ls were intimidated by me. She said that because I was older and quiet that they thought I was just barely tolerating them. She said they also thought I was experienced and knew what I was doing. Nothing could have been further from the truth. The fact was that I started volunteering about a week before they did, they just assumed that I had been there for a while because I was there before them. It is very silly how our assumptions sort of take on a life of their own.
I know a few lawyers that are not sociable. They like to keep their noses in the books and they keep their door shut at the office. Judges are infamous for being alone, introverted and even anti-social.

That makes sense. I tend to be more intimidated by people who don't say much than those who talk a lot. In particular, because I can make conversation with the loud ones but I often barely know what to say to one of the quiet ones. When working with a quiet person who doesn't smile much, I'm often thinking, "This person probably wants to tell me how much I suck but is holding back..."

Sounds like you would make a perfect lawyer.