Morse's Agenda (let's keep it real)

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tomhobbes
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Re: Morse's Agenda (let's keep it real)

Postby tomhobbes » Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:13 pm

PDaddy wrote:If we want the rankings madness to stop, the first step is to replace the LSAT with a better test...and fast!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7_xHsce57c

To sum up the video: guy who knows what he's talking about says that the LSAT doesn't discriminate against minorities. I'd like to hear what standardized test you believe is more fair than the LSAT, and I'd like to know what changes you propose making to the LSAT. Don't try to say some bullshit like "change it to make it fairer" either. I want a detailed explanation of how the LSAT is unfair and exactly how that can be fixed.

oneforship
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Re: Morse's Agenda (let's keep it real)

Postby oneforship » Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:14 pm

tomhobbes wrote:
PDaddy wrote:If we want the rankings madness to stop, the first step is to replace the LSAT with a better test...and fast!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7_xHsce57c

To sum up the video: guy who knows what he's talking about says that the LSAT doesn't discriminate against minorities. I'd like to hear what standardized test you believe is more fair than the LSAT, and I'd like to know what changes you propose making to the LSAT. Don't try to say some bullshit like "change it to make it fairer" either. I want a detailed explanation of how the LSAT is unfair and exactly how that can be fixed.


You just need to make it more fair.

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KibblesAndVick
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Re: Morse's Agenda (let's keep it real)

Postby KibblesAndVick » Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:24 pm

oneforship wrote:
tomhobbes wrote:
PDaddy wrote:If we want the rankings madness to stop, the first step is to replace the LSAT with a better test...and fast!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7_xHsce57c

To sum up the video: guy who knows what he's talking about says that the LSAT doesn't discriminate against minorities. I'd like to hear what standardized test you believe is more fair than the LSAT, and I'd like to know what changes you propose making to the LSAT. Don't try to say some bullshit like "change it to make it fairer" either. I want a detailed explanation of how the LSAT is unfair and exactly how that can be fixed.


You just need to [strike]make it more fair[/strike] include a URM boost so that the statistical difference in scores between black applicants and white/Asian applicants does not carry over into law school admissions.


Affirmative action FTFY.

charlesjd
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Re: Morse's Agenda (let's keep it real)

Postby charlesjd » Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:27 pm

KibblesAndVick wrote:
oneforship wrote:
tomhobbes wrote:
PDaddy wrote:If we want the rankings madness to stop, the first step is to replace the LSAT with a better test...and fast!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7_xHsce57c

To sum up the video: guy who knows what he's talking about says that the LSAT doesn't discriminate against minorities. I'd like to hear what standardized test you believe is more fair than the LSAT, and I'd like to know what changes you propose making to the LSAT. Don't try to say some bullshit like "change it to make it fairer" either. I want a detailed explanation of how the LSAT is unfair and exactly how that can be fixed.


You just need to [strike]make it more fair[/strike] include a URM boost so that the statistical difference in scores between black applicants and white/Asian applicants does not carry over into law school admissions.


Affirmative action FTFY.


They already do.... but it is not talked about because adcoms established this: the first rule of the URM boost is you do not speak of the URM boost.

Honestly, go look on LSN, when you see some straggler, it is always URM. Why.. the URM boost.

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KibblesAndVick
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Re: Morse's Agenda (let's keep it real)

Postby KibblesAndVick » Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:40 pm

charlesjd wrote:They already do.... but it is not talked about because adcoms established this: the first rule of the URM boost is you do not speak of the URM boost.

Honestly, go look on LSN, when you see some straggler, it is always URM. Why.. the URM boost.


I'm well aware of the URM boost. My post was an attempt to mock people who think the LSAT is a bad test because blacks score lower than whites and Asians. Admissions committees have already found a highly successful way of overcoming this problem. Blacks are clearly no longer discriminated against in the admissions process. They receive more favorable standards for acceptance to college and likewise for law school. The reasons they are underrepresented have to do with larger societal problems such as the lack of well educated role models in the black community and the low importance placed on a formal education (as opposed to an average Asian family on the other end of the spectrum). Trying to blame the problem on the LSAT is to be blind out of ignorance or choice.

oneforship
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Re: Morse's Agenda (let's keep it real)

Postby oneforship » Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:52 pm

KibblesAndVick wrote:
charlesjd wrote:They already do.... but it is not talked about because adcoms established this: the first rule of the URM boost is you do not speak of the URM boost.

Honestly, go look on LSN, when you see some straggler, it is always URM. Why.. the URM boost.


I'm well aware of the URM boost. My post was an attempt to mock people who think the LSAT is a bad test because blacks score lower than whites and Asians. Admissions committees have already found a highly successful way of overcoming this problem. Blacks are clearly no longer discriminated against in the admissions process. They receive more favorable standards for acceptance to college and likewise for law school. The reasons they are underrepresented have to do with larger societal problems such as the lack of well educated role models in the black community and the low importance placed on a formal education (as opposed to an average Asian family on the other end of the spectrum). Trying to blame the problem on the LSAT is to be blind out of ignorance or choice.


But the test is clearly discriminatory.

SlipperyPete
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Re: Morse's Agenda (let's keep it real)

Postby SlipperyPete » Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:53 pm

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Last edited by SlipperyPete on Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Z3RO
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Re: Morse's Agenda (let's keep it real)

Postby Z3RO » Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:58 pm

SlipperyPete wrote:
PDaddy wrote:Personally, I think Bob Morse and the powers that be at USNWR knew exactly what they were doing when they decided how to handle the law rankings. It seems that the other rankings don't depend nearly as much on the standardized exam scores (like b-schools and the GMAT). What are the reasons for this?

I believe they have two agendas:

1) Make $$$$$$$$$ (of course)
2) Keep blacks and other ethnic minorities out the legal profession

Keep blacks out of law schools and out of the profession. That is why so much weight goes to "student quality", which is determined mostly by LSAT score. And we all know how ethnic minorities do on the LSAT compared to their White and Asian counterparts. If you keep Blacks, Hispanics and other URM's out of law schools - especially the elite ones - you cripple their communities' ability to protect themselves within the criminal justice system and, to a slightly lesser degree, the civil legal arena.

This exerts a high level of control over the most disenfranchised people in the country without anyone being able to provide a direct link. These types of things have been done throughout history in this country, and they have almost always worked.

If we want the rankings madness to stop, the first step is to replace the LSAT with a better test...and fast!


Assuming for a moment that USNWR is systematically trying to keep blacks and Latinos out of the profession (they're not), this still wouldn't "cripple their communities' ability to protect themselves within the criminal justice system." It would only be crippling if white kids coming out of of law schools - "especially the elite ones" - were systematically moving into black communities and Mike Nifong-ing all the blacks in the community. I guarantee you that no white guy from HYS has a career goal to be a prosecutor in Harlem, Compton, Watts, Hyde Park, Annacostia, Old Fourth Ward, Fort Greene, East St. Louis, the Tacoma Hilltop, or Gary, AND intentionally prosecute black guys. So if your proposition is true, then it's just a bunch of poorly-educated lawyers defending their clients against poorly-educated prosecutors in minority communities. This doesn't cripple communities, the effect is balancing. Furthermore, your theory also requires an absence of white kids from HYS wanting to be public defenders in these neighborhoods. There are actually a lot of people who want to do that job. So how can the lack of URMs at elite schools cripple communities' ability to protect themselves within the criminal justice system if there are still many graduates from elite schools who want to protect blacks and Latinos within the criminal justice system? QED, I reject this strand of your argument as contrived and illogical. Not that it matters, there are dozens of people here who can disprove your entire premise (that USNWR is systematically trying to keep blacks and Latinos out of the profession).

ssshhh...

Don't you know that modern America is made entirely of insular communities, and only those from such communities have any capacity to have a positive effect on them later in life? You're stuck doing your good wherever you grew up, and that's that.

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Always Credited
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Re: Morse's Agenda (let's keep it real)

Postby Always Credited » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:01 pm

KibblesAndVick wrote:
charlesjd wrote:They already do.... but it is not talked about because adcoms established this: the first rule of the URM boost is you do not speak of the URM boost.

Honestly, go look on LSN, when you see some straggler, it is always URM. Why.. the URM boost.


I'm well aware of the URM boost. My post was an attempt to mock people who think the LSAT is a bad test because blacks score lower than whites and Asians. Admissions committees have already found a highly successful way of overcoming this problem. Blacks are clearly no longer discriminated against in the admissions process. They receive more favorable standards for acceptance to college and likewise for law school. The reasons they are underrepresented have to do with larger societal problems such as the lack of well educated role models in the black community and the low importance placed on a formal education (as opposed to an average Asian family on the other end of the spectrum). Trying to blame the problem on the LSAT is to be blind out of ignorance or choice.


Don't blame others for bad choices of role models. Bill Crosby is a pretty good guy. So is Colin Powell. I hear that Obama guy does OK...but for some reason hes less popular than 50 Cent, Snoop, Lil'Wayne.

Must be the money cash hoes.

Picking a bad role model is just a bad personal decision which preempts a string of even more bad personal decisions. And do you really want someone who makes bad decisions to have a J.D.? OH NO NO

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kn6542
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Re: Morse's Agenda (let's keep it real)

Postby kn6542 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:09 pm

OP sounds like he needs a thorazine drip. Good lord.

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kn6542
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Re: Morse's Agenda (let's keep it real)

Postby kn6542 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:37 pm

romothesavior wrote:Blacks don't just underperform on the LSAT, they underperform on just about every standardized test, due to a wide variety of educational and societal factors. In order to compensate for that, adcomms give URMs a boost. Where is the discrimination on the part of LSAC or anyone else? Just because blacks aren't doing as well as whites on the LSAT does not mean that the test is inherently discriminatory.

The LSAT tests on logic, which is race-neutral. Its not like they're testing on lacross, bass fishing, and Ben Folds... they're testing you on your ability to apply logic in a timed setting. No prior knowledge set is needed, just a skill set: logic.

Maybe they'd do better on the LSAT if the proctors could keep a better beat.

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: Morse's Agenda (let's keep it real)

Postby Mr. Matlock » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:39 pm

romothesavior wrote:Blacks don't just underperform on the LSAT, they underperform on just about every standardized test, due to a wide variety of educational and societal factors. In order to compensate for that, adcomms give URMs a boost. Where is the discrimination on the part of LSAC or anyone else? Just because blacks aren't doing as well as whites on the LSAT does not mean that the test is inherently discriminatory.

The LSAT tests on logic, which is race-neutral. Its not like they're testing on lacrosse, bass fishing, and Ben Folds... they're testing you on your ability to apply logic in a timed setting. No prior knowledge set is needed, just a skill set: logic.

I'm glad they don't test on Ben Folds. I had to look that up and I don't think I really learned much.

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: Morse's Agenda (let's keep it real)

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:00 pm

romothesavior wrote:Everything PDaddy writes makes me want to:

Image

Whatever school you go to should get a deduction for "student quality."


Credited

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romothesavior
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Re: Morse's Agenda (let's keep it real)

Postby romothesavior » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:03 pm

adh07d wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Everything PDaddy writes makes me want to:

Image

Whatever school you go to should get a deduction for "student quality."


Credited


I'm not sure if that is a picture of me barfing at PDaddy's comments, or if its a picture of PDaddy posting on TLS.

Everything he writes looks like poop spewing out of his mouth.

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: Morse's Agenda (let's keep it real)

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:18 pm

romothesavior wrote:
I'm not sure if that is a picture of me barfing at PDaddy's comments, or if its a picture of PDaddy posting on TLS.

Everything he writes looks like poop spewing out of his mouth.


Either one fits, double-entendre image?

charlesjd
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Re: Morse's Agenda (let's keep it real)

Postby charlesjd » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:19 pm

KibblesAndVick wrote:
charlesjd wrote:They already do.... but it is not talked about because adcoms established this: the first rule of the URM boost is you do not speak of the URM boost.

Honestly, go look on LSN, when you see some straggler, it is always URM. Why.. the URM boost.


I'm well aware of the URM boost. My post was an attempt to mock people who think the LSAT is a bad test because blacks score lower than whites and Asians. Admissions committees have already found a highly successful way of overcoming this problem. Blacks are clearly no longer discriminated against in the admissions process. They receive more favorable standards for acceptance to college and likewise for law school. The reasons they are underrepresented have to do with larger societal problems such as the lack of well educated role models in the black community and the low importance placed on a formal education (as opposed to an average Asian family on the other end of the spectrum). Trying to blame the problem on the LSAT is to be blind out of ignorance or choice.


Agreed.

charlesjd
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Re: Morse's Agenda (let's keep it real)

Postby charlesjd » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:20 pm

romothesavior wrote:
adh07d wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Everything PDaddy writes makes me want to:

Image

Whatever school you go to should get a deduction for "student quality."


Credited


I'm not sure if that is a picture of me barfing at PDaddy's comments, or if its a picture of PDaddy posting on TLS.

Everything he writes looks like poop spewing out of his mouth.


LOL +1

waxloaf
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Re: Morse's Agenda (let's keep it real)

Postby waxloaf » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:36 pm

maybe they should test bass fishing and golfing skills, would be a better predictor of success at large firms

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Rock Chalk
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Re: Morse's Agenda (let's keep it real)

Postby Rock Chalk » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:44 pm

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Last edited by Rock Chalk on Wed May 16, 2012 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

SlipperyPete
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Re: Morse's Agenda (let's keep it real)

Postby SlipperyPete » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:45 pm

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Last edited by SlipperyPete on Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

waxloaf
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Re: Morse's Agenda (let's keep it real)

Postby waxloaf » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:47 pm

SlipperyPete wrote:
romothesavior wrote:The LSAT tests on logic, which is race-neutral. Its not like they're testing on lacrosse, bass fishing, and Ben Folds...


waxloaf wrote:maybe they should test bass fishing and golfing skills, would be a better predictor of success at large firms


FYI, the top Google Images result for "bass fish winner" is a black man.


good find, more evidence that the test should involve bass fishing.

SlipperyPete
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Re: Morse's Agenda (let's keep it real)

Postby SlipperyPete » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:50 pm

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Last edited by SlipperyPete on Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: Morse's Agenda (let's keep it real)

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:03 pm

SlipperyPete wrote:
romothesavior wrote:The LSAT tests on logic, which is race-neutral. Its not like they're testing on lacrosse, bass fishing, and Ben Folds...


waxloaf wrote:maybe they should test bass fishing and golfing skills, would be a better predictor of success at large firms


FYI, the top Google Images result for "bass fish winner" is a black man.


The worlds best golfer is half black and half asian, testing on golf would be discrimination against whites!

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Rock Chalk
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Re: Morse's Agenda (let's keep it real)

Postby Rock Chalk » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:10 pm

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Last edited by Rock Chalk on Wed May 16, 2012 2:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

muahawhawhaw
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Re: Morse's Agenda (let's keep it real)

Postby muahawhawhaw » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:12 pm

adh07d wrote:
SlipperyPete wrote:
romothesavior wrote:The LSAT tests on logic, which is race-neutral. Its not like they're testing on lacrosse, bass fishing, and Ben Folds...


waxloaf wrote:maybe they should test bass fishing and golfing skills, would be a better predictor of success at large firms


FYI, the top Google Images result for "bass fish winner" is a black man.


The worlds best golfer is half black and half asian, testing on golf would be discrimination against whites!


And the best female tennis players are two black sisters. Well, maybe one of them, but Venus ain't bad.




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