Which school do you think most frauded the rankings?

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )

Gamers

Duke -1
40
12%
Hawaii +28
59
18%
St. John's +15
8
2%
UC Davis +7
29
9%
Arizona State +17
55
17%
George Washington +8
61
19%
Chapman +7
15
5%
Miami +11
17
5%
Hofstra +14
19
6%
Syracuse +14
21
6%
 
Total votes: 324

SandyC877
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Which school do you think most frauded the rankings?

Postby SandyC877 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:49 am

(For entertainment purposes only. I do not wish to undermine the genuine effort some schools put into revamp their programs. But let's face it, we are nothing more than numbers ranked in order to them, and app season is coming to a close, so it's fair game to have a little fun.)

So which school do you think most engaged in manipulation, dishonesty, and other creative unethical tactics to sell the same garbage in different packaging?
I'm assuming the ones that jumped up in rankings the most, but personally for me, I call bullshit on Loyola. I know their graduates are not getting jobs, especially not in LA and in this economy. As as far as I know, their median numbers didn't change much from last year. Same goes for Chapman. I don't mean to single out California schools, but I know them better than other regions. You can't be a T3-T4 flossing 90%+ employment rate when even UCLA's hasn't changed much.

Also, I remember reading St. John's Law articles crying foul and calling for a boycott of USNWR. Looks like they've decided to cut the bullshit and join in on the fun.

Update:

1. Although Duke dropped -1 in the ranks, Duke is the only law school in the nation to claim 100% employment rate upon graduation, according to Professor Brian Leiter's Law Blog:
"The story gets funnier--the material circulating shows Duke as reporting 100% employment at graduation--the only school in the country (the world?) to claim 100% at graduation. As hoaxes go, this one is not subtle. (Of course, I guess it's possible that US News is just the messenger for this hoax...nah, surely a [former] news magazine would investigate before publishing astonishing claims like this.)"
http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leit ... eaked.html

2. Duke, Northwestern, Iowa, Utah, and Hawaii are the only law schools in the country to have reported 100% of their graduates employed after nine months.
Last edited by SandyC877 on Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:08 am, edited 17 times in total.

WhatTheLawSchool
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Re: Which school do you think most frauded the rankings?

Postby WhatTheLawSchool » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:56 am

Ugh, this is frustrating to me. I had just sent off a seat deposit to a school that is steadily dropping. (Not dramatically, but steadily.) And, I had all but finally ruled out my last two remaining options, both of which are in this poll! They both dramatically improved their ranking... it makes me wonder if I should reconsider them. Arizona State passed the rank of the school I was choosing, and Loyola is now suddenly a top 60 (yeah, I know, weird to use 60) school that offered me a big scholarship. I hate how much I care about rankings, but it's hard for me to not notice these jumps. But as this topic points out, I should be skeptical. Right?

jhare
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Re: Which school do you think most frauded the rankings?

Postby jhare » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:59 am

Loyola's bump makes me feel better about my decision

WhatTheLawSchool
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Re: Which school do you think most frauded the rankings?

Postby WhatTheLawSchool » Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:00 am

jhare wrote:Loyola's bump makes me feel better about my decision



You're going there? I'm still really considering it. Glad they have a April 30th deadline. They must have known they were going to make this leap. haha

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PDaddy
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Re: Which school do you think most frauded the rankings?

Postby PDaddy » Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:01 am

Georgia State moved up quite a bit over the last two years also...but I digress. I don't think any of the schools "frauded the rankings" as much as they just played the game that was set up for them. It's musical chairs. The USNWR rankings shouldn't even mean anything anymore. But we give them meaning. They are such a joke. I don't see what makes them better than any of the others.

If you're trying to get off of the WL at Miami, UC-Davis or a few of those others, forget it! People will think twice before turning those seats down.

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sapereaude2012
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Re: Which school do you think most frauded the rankings?

Postby sapereaude2012 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:04 am

Do people really think GW 'frauded' the rankings that much? If you look over the years and not just at last year, GW is ALWAYS right around the #20 spot. A double-digit improvement seems much more suspect than a return to your fairly well-cemented position.

Especially considering that GW cut the pt program to a third of its previous size, and the employment #s improved, there seems to be a colorable argument that this is not the result of gaming on the part of the GW administration. Then again, perhaps I am letting my school allegiance get the best of me.

WhatTheLawSchool
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Re: Which school do you think most frauded the rankings?

Postby WhatTheLawSchool » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:22 am

LOL, I actually picked ASU for the poll, but now I'm considering picking either Syracuse or Syracuse. :)

Disregard the above post by me. I'm back to not really caring about ASU or LLS's jump in the rankings. I bet they both go back down in the next couple years. We'll see.

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tadams86
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Re: Which school do you think most frauded the rankings?

Postby tadams86 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:28 am

Syracuse or Chapman...I know Chapman really played the game well, but really does it even matter outside the t14? The employers know what schools have the prestige, I dont think a jump in the rankings will dramatically affect job prospects.

On another note, does anyone think the jumble in the rankings is partly caused by the bad economy? If some markets perform better than others, is that an advantage to a school? I realize this isnt the only factor, but its the one that should matter most (to me anyway).

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superserial
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Re: Which school do you think most frauded the rankings?

Postby superserial » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:28 am

we're most frauded by the rankings.

flcath
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Re: Which school do you think most frauded the rankings?

Postby flcath » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:33 am

I cannot cast a vote until WUSTL is added to the list of options.

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General Tso
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Re: Which school do you think most frauded the rankings?

Postby General Tso » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:42 am

Davis needs to be on this list. 97% employment at graduation? Higher than Boalt? In California? IN THIS ECONOMY? I think not.

EDIT: Also Chapman listed an absurdly high employment rate, something like 90%. None of the schools ranked around Davis and Chapman reported figures anywhere near this high. And come on now, anyone who knows California knows that legal jobs ain't easily had.

SandyC877
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Re: Which school do you think most frauded the rankings?

Postby SandyC877 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:47 am

swheat wrote:Davis needs to be on this list. 97% employment at graduation? Higher than Boalt? In California? IN THIS ECONOMY? I think not.

EDIT: Also Chapman listed an absurdly high employment rate, something like 90%. None of the schools ranked around Davis and Chapman reported figures anywhere near this high. And come on now, anyone who knows California knows that legal jobs ain't easily had.


I was considering it. Very valid point made.

SandyC877
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Re: Which school do you think most frauded the rankings?

Postby SandyC877 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:53 am

superserial wrote:we're most frauded by the rankings.


Yeah but to believe that takes critical thinking. We didn't get here by employing such childish tactics.

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OneKnight
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Re: Which school do you think most frauded the rankings?

Postby OneKnight » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:55 am

I voted Loyola, mostly because of this: http://abovethelaw.com/2010/03/loyola-law-school-la-retroactively-inflates-grades/

I turned down a huge scholarship from LLS and I would do it again. Every time.

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General Tso
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Re: Which school do you think most frauded the rankings?

Postby General Tso » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:55 am

SandyC877 wrote:
swheat wrote:Davis needs to be on this list. 97% employment at graduation? Higher than Boalt? In California? IN THIS ECONOMY? I think not.

EDIT: Also Chapman listed an absurdly high employment rate, something like 90%. None of the schools ranked around Davis and Chapman reported figures anywhere near this high. And come on now, anyone who knows California knows that legal jobs ain't easily had.


I was considering it. Very valid point made.


Also I am not sure if Hawaii is gaming the rankings this year. Last year they didn't report Bar Passage or some major criteria not as a coverup but out of confusion. Last year they would have been in the T2 had they properly responded to the USWNR questionnaire.

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Pleasye
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Re: Which school do you think most frauded the rankings?

Postby Pleasye » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:59 am

How is Chapman not in this poll?

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quickquestionthanks
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Re: Which school do you think most frauded the rankings?

Postby quickquestionthanks » Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:03 am

superserial wrote:we're most frauded by the rankings.


deep, man


you never answered my question before

SandyC877
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Re: Which school do you think most frauded the rankings?

Postby SandyC877 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:04 am

LSpleaseee wrote:How is Chapman not in this poll?


I was highly suspicious of Chapman as well. Edited and added.

flcath
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Re: Which school do you think most frauded the rankings?

Postby flcath » Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:15 am

swheat wrote:Davis needs to be on this list. 97% employment at graduation? Higher than Boalt? In California? IN THIS ECONOMY? I think not.

EDIT: Also Chapman listed an absurdly high employment rate, something like 90%. None of the schools ranked around Davis and Chapman reported figures anywhere near this high. And come on now, anyone who knows California knows that legal jobs ain't easily had.

Any UC-Davis grad left employed after 8 months, 29 days is offered a janitorial position with the university.

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General Tso
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Re: Which school do you think most frauded the rankings?

Postby General Tso » Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:31 am

flcath wrote:
swheat wrote:Davis needs to be on this list. 97% employment at graduation? Higher than Boalt? In California? IN THIS ECONOMY? I think not.

EDIT: Also Chapman listed an absurdly high employment rate, something like 90%. None of the schools ranked around Davis and Chapman reported figures anywhere near this high. And come on now, anyone who knows California knows that legal jobs ain't easily had.

Any UC-Davis grad left employed after 8 months, 29 days is offered a janitorial position with the university.


No...they are claiming 97% employed AT GRADUATION. Not within 9 mos. 97% is a pretty typical rate for 9 mo.

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quickquestionthanks
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Re: Which school do you think most frauded the rankings?

Postby quickquestionthanks » Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:42 am

swheat wrote:No...they are claiming 97% employed AT GRADUATION. Not within 9 mos. 97% is a pretty typical rate for 9 mo.



This is indeed highly questionable. You've gotta go all the way up to Northwestern to find a school with a better percentage. The next closest is Emory, but their 9 month number actually falls, perhaps indicating more methodological malpractice. Good catch.

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j.wellington
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Re: Which school do you think most frauded the rankings?

Postby j.wellington » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:32 am

I'm wasting my time, but the ones being "frauded" are the people who actually accept these things as a legitimate measure of a school's worth. It's more akin to an annual obstacle course that law schools feel obligated to compete in thanks to those like the posters on these forums. They shouldn't be blamed for approaching it that way. If you're having trouble with the rope climb, you're going to work on becoming a better rope climber. If your median LSAT score is too low, you're going to look for students with higher LSATs.

It's treated like a game because that's exactly what it is. The only way to stop the manipulation is if a group of top law school deans band together and agree to not participate. Which, of course, will never happen.

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pleasetryagain
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Re: Which school do you think most frauded the rankings?

Postby pleasetryagain » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:34 am

Woahh.. Who did Hawaii blow? Amirite?!

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jks289
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Re: Which school do you think most frauded the rankings?

Postby jks289 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:38 am

I have to agree with Chapman and Loyola being the most bullshit jumps, in the sense that no actual improvement was made just gaming the numbers. Chapman is open about it, Loyola less so. But both those employment numbers just seem impossible based on the CA legal market.

Oblomov
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Re: Which school do you think most frauded the rankings?

Postby Oblomov » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:41 am

.
Last edited by Oblomov on Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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