So...how screwed am I?

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gogog0
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So...how screwed am I?

Postby gogog0 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:46 pm

hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Last edited by gogog0 on Thu May 13, 2010 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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vexion
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Re: So...how screwed am I?

Postby vexion » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:05 pm

The disciplinary actions haven't screwed you. The usual advice is just to write a short, direct addendum explaining them and how you've learned your lesson, won't do it again, stupid mistake, blah blah blah.

That said, it might marginally hurt your prospects. Law school admissions are 95% numbers-driven, but an academic honor code violation doesn't help.

Also, those softs aren't anything standout. Anything less than president in a fraternity is an obvious résumé cop-out to adcomms, and an awards committee is meaningless.

/justsayin'

ughOSU
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Re: So...how screwed am I?

Postby ughOSU » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:10 pm

Yea you're not screwed, but academic honor code violation hurts. You may want to consider taking some time off btw UG and law school bc it will be more believable that you're not the same person you were in UG if you're not in UG when you apply.

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Sangiovese
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Re: So...how screwed am I?

Postby Sangiovese » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:23 pm

Wow... theft and cheating.

You sure know how to get straight to the heart of character and fitness don't ya? :mrgreen:

As others have said, full disclosure is a must. It will hurt, but not nearly as much as "forgetting" to include it and being discovered later.

And you need to take ownership of it. Sounds like you're using the excuse of "my frat made me do it" to justify the theft. You need to drop that attitude and own up to it. A scavenger hunt is not an excuse to steal something. And if the scavenger hunt rules required you to steal the items... then succumbing to peer pressure and stealing, followed by covering for them when you got caught isn't some sort of noble act (which you seem to be trying to imply in your post).

gogog0
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Re: So...how screwed am I?

Postby gogog0 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:27 pm

alright, thanks for the advice so far. i mean, i figure that this will knock down the top schools i can get into by a fair degree, but its comforting to know that i shouldn't abandon my goals all together. my poli sci degree doesn't leave me much room for options.

ughOSU
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Re: So...how screwed am I?

Postby ughOSU » Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:50 pm

gogog0 wrote:i figure that this will knock down the top schools i can get into by a fair degree

This is not true.

e: former gang members and people with DUIs can still get into good law schools... it's all about how you spin it. IMO some time between your cycle and the incidents should help a lot.

Drop the defeatism... it sucks and will not help you get anywhere.

ee: although I admittedly do not know how they will respond to the cheating, and that could hurt you.
Last edited by ughOSU on Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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romothesavior
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Re: So...how screwed am I?

Postby romothesavior » Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:55 pm

I would think the academic-related failure could hurt you a lot. From what I've heard from a number of professors and my pre-law advisor, academia really frowns on XFs on your transcript and it is an immediate black smudge on your record. Granted, these people aren't adcomms and maybe adcomms view them differently, but I can't imagine it will be a minor issue.

Definitely put together a well-written addendum.

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remotelyfeasible
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Re: So...how screwed am I?

Postby remotelyfeasible » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:23 am

I would worry both about getting into law school, and also, the fact it may make it more difficult to pass character and fitness for the bar.

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FunkyJD
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Re: So...how screwed am I?

Postby FunkyJD » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:29 am

gogog0 wrote:I have two disciplinary actions on my undergraduate record. The first happened freshman year, where as part of a scavenger hunt in my pledge process I stole some items from the school dormitory grocery shop. At the time I did not reveal that it was part of a scavenger hunt for my pledging process because I did not want to get my fraternity in trouble, so I received a year of probation. The second incident happened this year (junior year, second semester) when I was not able to make a class and so I gave my clicker to a friend to take a clicker quiz for me that was around 1-2% of our total grade. The professor in that class reported us to the honor council and we were removed from the class and given a failing grade.

The part in bold is going to be a problem.

You didn't just commit academic dishonesty. You did it this year. How will you demonstrate to schools that your judgment has significantly improved -- that you have matured -- in such a small period of time?

Hope you write a real tight addendum. And I hope your LSAT is high.

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pleasetryagain
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Re: So...how screwed am I?

Postby pleasetryagain » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:36 am

the fact that it was "only 1-2% of your final grade" doesnt matter and you really should not mention that to anyone. It smacks of, "stupid prof busted us for cheating.. and it was only 2% of our grade!"

gogog0
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Re: So...how screwed am I?

Postby gogog0 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:17 am

thanks for all the responses, everything is constructive. I just really want to know if I should make alternative plans for my life. I've wanted to be a lawyer as long as I can remember, but I can't really blame anyone else but myself for the position I'm in. I'm retaking the class with the same prof that reported me to the honor council, and I've already talked to him and we're on good terms. I'm going to do everything I can to show him that it was a lapse of judgment and I think I might try and get an ancillary recommendation out of him. Do you guys think that would help?

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TTH
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Re: So...how screwed am I?

Postby TTH » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:28 am

Way to stand tall for your bros, bro.

Geist13
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Re: So...how screwed am I?

Postby Geist13 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:38 am

yeah the cheating part is the one you need to worry about. The best thing to do about it is probably nail the LSAT.

also, what is a clicker and what is a clicker quiz? Has college turned into jeopardy in the four years since I graduated?

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ihurtmyselftoday
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Re: So...how screwed am I?

Postby ihurtmyselftoday » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:01 am

gogog0 wrote:I have two disciplinary actions on my undergraduate record. The first happened freshman year, where as part of a scavenger hunt in my pledge process I stole some items from the school dormitory grocery shop. At the time I did not reveal that it was part of a scavenger hunt for my pledging process because I did not want to get my fraternity in trouble, so I received a year of probation. The second incident happened this year (junior year, second semester) when I was not able to make a class and so I gave my clicker to a friend to take a clicker quiz for me that was around 1-2% of our total grade. The professor in that class reported us to the honor council and we were removed from the class and given a failing grade.


I'm honored to be the first on this thread to offer you some brutal honesty.

If I were an adcomm reading this, I would not accept you to my school, regardless of your numbers. Your willingness to commit a crime to basically impress your friends shows a poor judgement call on your part, but I probably wouldn't interpret it as much more than standard freshman year mischief....if you had learned something from it.

But you clearly did not. You cheated. This year. So clearly your behavior freshman year was not an isolated incident. If I was an adcomm I would think that you lack integrity and good judgement. The incidents you disclosed were probably part of a series of lapses in these areas. You just happened to tell people only about the times you were caught.

I think you need to take the time off to grow as a person.

Notice I didn't say you should take time just to put distance between you and these incidents (which would obviously help). Instead you should use that time to actually develop some maturity and character fitness. When you think you've succesfully developed these traits, wait another year and reapply.

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FunkyJD
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Re: So...how screwed am I?

Postby FunkyJD » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:21 am

gogog0 wrote:thanks for all the responses, everything is constructive. I just really want to know if I should make alternative plans for my life. I've wanted to be a lawyer as long as I can remember, but I can't really blame anyone else but myself for the position I'm in. I'm retaking the class with the same prof that reported me to the honor council, and I've already talked to him and we're on good terms. I'm going to do everything I can to show him that it was a lapse of judgment and I think I might try and get an ancillary recommendation out of him. Do you guys think that would help?

Do NOT do this.

Your prof's recommendation, if it were to mean anything, would presumably be submitted confidentially. You would not know with any certainty what he or she would write. He or she could write, "Dood's more or less a smart kid, but he's completely amoral." Professors can and do give negative recommendations. Don't go there.

I like the earlier poster's idea to sit out a cycle -- and possibly not apply until after you've graduated and had a year of job experience outside of college. Getting nailed with an honor violation this year was just a real bad call -- especially since you're trying to go to law school directly from undergrad: a situation in which schools already have concerns about applicant maturity. I honestly don't know if that's fixable in the short-term.

nascent
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Re: So...how screwed am I?

Postby nascent » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:22 am

ihurtmyselftoday wrote:
gogog0 wrote:I have two disciplinary actions on my undergraduate record. The first happened freshman year, where as part of a scavenger hunt in my pledge process I stole some items from the school dormitory grocery shop. At the time I did not reveal that it was part of a scavenger hunt for my pledging process because I did not want to get my fraternity in trouble, so I received a year of probation. The second incident happened this year (junior year, second semester) when I was not able to make a class and so I gave my clicker to a friend to take a clicker quiz for me that was around 1-2% of our total grade. The professor in that class reported us to the honor council and we were removed from the class and given a failing grade.


I'm honored to be the first on this thread to offer you some brutal honesty.

If I were an adcomm reading this, I would not accept you to my school, regardless of your numbers. Your willingness to commit a crime to basically impress your friends shows a poor judgement call on your part, but I probably wouldn't interpret it as much more than standard freshman year mischief....if you had learned something from it.

But you clearly did not. You cheated. This year. So clearly your behavior freshman year was not an isolated incident. If I was an adcomm I would think that you lack integrity and good judgement. The incidents you disclosed were probably part of a series of lapses in these areas. You just happened to tell people only about the times you were caught.

I think you need to take the time off to grow as a person.

Notice I didn't say you should take time just to put distance between you and these incidents (which would obviously help). Instead you should use that time to actually develop some maturity and character fitness. When you think you've succesfully developed these traits, wait another year and reapply.


Sorry for your misjudgments in the past but yeah, I agree with the above.

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BriaTharen
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Re: So...how screwed am I?

Postby BriaTharen » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:29 am

Much of the consensus in this thread seems to be to put some time between you and the cheating to not only give time to grow ethically, but actually do so. If you really want to be a lawyer, that's pretty much what you need to do. Also have a lot of safeties.

Z3RO
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Re: So...how screwed am I?

Postby Z3RO » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:03 am

Why would you cheat on something that is of no importance (1-2% of your grade/pledging in some frat)? When I was in college, annoying shit that was worth less than 5% of my grade just didn't get done at all. I can't say I was responsible, but at least I was sincere and took the calculated hit. You use dishonesty like it's a quick plan B.

I hope you don't become a lawyer unless you go through some kind of complete, ground-up metamorphosis that takes decades.

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nick637
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Re: So...how screwed am I?

Postby nick637 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:11 am

Lulz at you stealing for your friends. Good luck, you will need it

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T14_Scholly
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Re: So...how screwed am I?

Postby T14_Scholly » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:13 am

ihurtmyselftoday wrote:
Notice I didn't say you should take time just to put distance between you and these incidents (which would obviously help). Instead you should use that time to actually develop some maturity and character fitness. When you think you've succesfully developed these traits, wait another year and reapply.


Z3RO wrote:
I hope you don't become a lawyer unless you go through some kind of complete, ground-up metamorphosis that takes decades.



Get off your high horse, douches.

OP: the most sensible thing to do would be to call schools and pose these questions without indentifying yourself. The people responding to you here are just sort of guessing.

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FunkyJD
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Re: So...how screwed am I?

Postby FunkyJD » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:23 am

T14_Scholly wrote:OP: the most sensible thing to do would be to call schools and pose these questions without indentifying yourself. The people responding to you here are just sort of guessing.

Perhaps ... but OP, call these schools, and let us know how educated our guesses are.

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ihurtmyselftoday
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Re: So...how screwed am I?

Postby ihurtmyselftoday » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:36 am

My phone call prediction:

OP: "Hey Law School, a couple years ago I stole from my school to impress my bros. It worked too because they were impressed enough to make me Treasurer! In an unrelated incident I cheated on a test a few weeks ago and got caught. No big deal or anything since it was only 1% of my grade. Anyway I totally rocked a comeback on that bitch too. So anyway, what do I have to do to convice you that I'm 100% good-to-go and ready to start lawerin'? "

Adcomm: ::click::

OP: "Hello?"

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Bert
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Re: So...how screwed am I?

Postby Bert » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:00 am

Especially considering that you cheated so close to applying to law school, I would think that adcoms would frown on seeing the blemish on your academic report. It would make me question what else you may have cheated on without getting caught. I do agree though that you need to distance yourself from the cheating incident and grow up. Not only is cheating by having somebody take your tests/quizzes for you a fairly serious honor code violation, but it definitely shows lack of judgment, and you need to get this flavor out of your application materials. Definitely write the "I have grown" addendum.

Z3RO wrote:When I was in college, annoying shit that was worth less than 5% of my grade just didn't get done at all. I can't say I was responsible, but at least I was sincere and took the calculated hit.


+1 on that

ughOSU
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Re: So...how screwed am I?

Postby ughOSU » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:04 am

ihurtmyselftoday wrote:
gogog0 wrote:I have two disciplinary actions on my undergraduate record. The first happened freshman year, where as part of a scavenger hunt in my pledge process I stole some items from the school dormitory grocery shop. At the time I did not reveal that it was part of a scavenger hunt for my pledging process because I did not want to get my fraternity in trouble, so I received a year of probation. The second incident happened this year (junior year, second semester) when I was not able to make a class and so I gave my clicker to a friend to take a clicker quiz for me that was around 1-2% of our total grade. The professor in that class reported us to the honor council and we were removed from the class and given a failing grade.


I'm honored to be the first on this thread to offer you some brutal honesty.

If I were an adcomm reading this, I would not accept you to my school, regardless of your numbers. Your willingness to commit a crime to basically impress your friends shows a poor judgement call on your part, but I probably wouldn't interpret it as much more than standard freshman year mischief....if you had learned something from it.

But you clearly did not. You cheated. This year. So clearly your behavior freshman year was not an isolated incident. If I was an adcomm I would think that you lack integrity and good judgement. The incidents you disclosed were probably part of a series of lapses in these areas. You just happened to tell people only about the times you were caught.

I think you need to take the time off to grow as a person.

Notice I didn't say you should take time just to put distance between you and these incidents (which would obviously help). Instead you should use that time to actually develop some maturity and character fitness. When you think you've succesfully developed these traits, wait another year and reapply.

Is it lonely, all the way up there on your pedestal...

ihurtmyselftoday wrote:My phone call prediction:

OP: "Hey Law School, a couple years ago I stole from my school to impress my bros. It worked too because they were impressed enough to make me Treasurer! In an unrelated incident I cheated on a test a few weeks ago and got caught. No big deal or anything since it was only 1% of my grade. Anyway I totally rocked a comeback on that bitch too. So anyway, what do I have to do to convice you that I'm 100% good-to-go and ready to start lawerin'? "

Adcomm: ::click::

OP: "Hello?"

This is entirely untrue. I called a couple of schools to ask about disclosure questions, and all of them were cordial and *gasp* professional. If you want to be safe about it though, call up an admissions office of a similarly ranked school that you're NOT applying to.

OP, don't let uniformed people persuade where you apply or how you envision your cycle going. Just work hard, study your ass off for the LSAT, and put some miles between you and the cheating incident. If you apply in the fall, all they have to go on regarding your character is your behavior in college, which obviously is less than saintly. Spend some time in the real world, and they have a completely different side of you to compare that to. Don't have any run-ins with the cops when you're in the real world though.

fyi, I disclosed a couple of incidents (including an arrest) and was still accpeted to 3 T14s with very mediocre numbers.

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ihurtmyselftoday
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Re: So...how screwed am I?

Postby ihurtmyselftoday » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:21 am

ughOSU wrote: Is it lonely, all the way up there on your pedestal...


Whether or not you regard my post as condescending is wholly irrelevant. Especially since you seem to agree that his actions were "obviously less than saintly".

I think your meaningless euphamisms are even more belittling; I prefer to just be straight forward in giving the OP an idea of what to expect.

OP: Despite my prediction of how that phone call would go, I would agree that it wouldn't hurt for you to make the call. But you obviously value the opinions of this forum, otherwise you wouldn't have sought them out. The good advice is to wait before applying.




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