ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

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rayiner
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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby rayiner » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:44 pm

Unemployed wrote:
Rand M. wrote:to echo the sentiments of an above poster I hope that no one is forgetting to mentally adjust for the fact that NYU's normal class size is about 450, CLS is usually about 400 and U of C is usually about 200. That's just a good thing to keep in mind when looking at raw numbers. I usually just double the chicago number and subtract a few from the nyu number to try to get an accurate picture.


CLS is normally 370, although that might change.


You have to add in transfers.

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby Rock Chalk » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:58 pm

.
Last edited by Rock Chalk on Wed May 16, 2012 2:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unemployed
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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby Unemployed » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:06 pm

rayiner wrote:
Unemployed wrote:
Rand M. wrote:to echo the sentiments of an above poster I hope that no one is forgetting to mentally adjust for the fact that NYU's normal class size is about 450, CLS is usually about 400 and U of C is usually about 200. That's just a good thing to keep in mind when looking at raw numbers. I usually just double the chicago number and subtract a few from the nyu number to try to get an accurate picture.


CLS is normally 370, although that might change.


You have to add in transfers.


It was my understanding the Columbia and NYU have similarly sized transfer classes (so the difference remains at 80, with the exception of c/o 2012)

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby Rand M. » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:06 pm

Rock Chalk wrote:Not sure if this adds anything, but I saw the debate regarding the relative strength of CLS and NYU outside of NYC so I asked around at the firm in the Midwest where I interned and they all assume CLS > NYU. They pretty much know YHS and then think CLS & Chicago, then they pretty much all lump NYU, Michigan, Penn, Boalt and UVA together. All held in very high regard, of course; an NYU degree is definitely something to be proud of, but they seem to never have considered CLS and NYU equals.

Just an outside perspective.


This is pretty much exactly how I have always heard it. HYS CC NMVPB etc. It was always a major annoyance when people would say T5 and mean NYU, because nobody really sees it this way. In most traditional circles (which most law circles are) NYU is not Top 5, it is a notch below CC. Still a helluva school, but more in line with the above depiction than anything like NYU students claiming they should be number 4 over Columbia.

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby scribelaw » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:18 pm

Rand M. wrote:
Rock Chalk wrote:Not sure if this adds anything, but I saw the debate regarding the relative strength of CLS and NYU outside of NYC so I asked around at the firm in the Midwest where I interned and they all assume CLS > NYU. They pretty much know YHS and then think CLS & Chicago, then they pretty much all lump NYU, Michigan, Penn, Boalt and UVA together. All held in very high regard, of course; an NYU degree is definitely something to be proud of, but they seem to never have considered CLS and NYU equals.

Just an outside perspective.


This is pretty much exactly how I have always heard it. HYS CC NMVPB etc. It was always a major annoyance when people would say T5 and mean NYU, because nobody really sees it this way. In most traditional circles (which most law circles are) NYU is not Top 5, it is a notch below CC. Still a helluva school, but more in line with the above depiction than anything like NYU students claiming they should be number 4 over Columbia.


I'm not arguing that NYU is equal to or better than CC. I don't know. But NYU seems to be a fairly signifigant notch above MVP: It has a stronger faculty, a better student body, and better placement in elite firms even though many of its students (and many of its best students, RTK folks, etc.) self-select into PI.

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby badfish » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:24 pm

Rock Chalk wrote:Not sure if this adds anything, but I saw the debate regarding the relative strength of CLS and NYU outside of NYC so I asked around at the firm in the Midwest where I interned and they all assume CLS > NYU. They pretty much know YHS and then think CLS & Chicago, then they pretty much all lump NYU, Michigan, Penn, Boalt and UVA together. All held in very high regard, of course; an NYU degree is definitely something to be proud of, but they seem to never have considered CLS and NYU equals.

Just an outside perspective.


So people in the midwest like Chicago. I don't understand how this is in any way relevant or indicative of how people view NYU around the rest of the country.

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby of Benito Cereno » Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:07 am

crackberry wrote:The only place Columbia is a peer with Stanford is East Coast BigLaw, where Chicago (and NYU in NYC) is also a peer to SLS.

Tell me, if you really wanted a prestigious clerkship, a hard-to-get government gig or some sort of "elite" PI job, would you really pick CLS over SLS with $$ being equal? I doubt it, and if you did, you'd be making a dubious choice.

Granted, TLS has an obsession with NYC and DC BigLaw so if that's the only thing that matters to you, then sure, pick CLS over SLS.

I, personally, would choose CLS over SLS (but I did not even apply to any west coast schools so I guess I don't count). However, I think most people would say that it would be dubious to pick HLS over YLS for the highest levels of clerkships, top fed jobs, and elite PI. However, everyone sees HLS and YLS as basically peers. Furthermore, is there evidence of a major difference between SLS and CLS in federal clerkship, fed job, and academic placement. From looking at Leiter data there doesn't seem to be that profound a difference. I think if you are interested in working on the East Coast (which includes probably well over half of the nations top legal jobs) CLS is a reasonable peer of SLS. Thats not to say SLS is usually not a better choice (it probably is) but that CLS is closer to SLS than it is to NYU. I never suggested that "peer" meant "equal." I think SLS:CLS is like YLS:HLS but thats probably a bit too generous to CLS but still not totally off.

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby andreea7 » Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:03 am

BenJ wrote:
Unemployed wrote:Ranking within mini-tiers is capricious, as the schools' relative positions respond sensitively to bar passage rates and employment stats (IIRC, the one time Columbia was surpassed by NYU in recent history, it was because they had an unusually low bar passage rate). Next year's ranking might turn out to be NYU-Chicago-Columbia - not likely, but certainly possible.


Indeed. And a three-point jump by Columbia can't possibly be significant. Ask yourselves, what has happened in the past year to make Columbia substantially better thought of today than it was last year? The answer, of course, is nothing; it's margin-of-error noise.

(Bear in mind that I say this as someone who already chose NYU over Columbia, but I don't think that's influencing my thinking.)


Coming in a little late to reply to this but Columbia has actually made some changes recently, including hiring a bunch of new professors, thereby increasing curriculum and decreasing class size.

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby of Benito Cereno » Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:12 am

andreea7 wrote:
BenJ wrote:
Unemployed wrote:Ranking within mini-tiers is capricious, as the schools' relative positions respond sensitively to bar passage rates and employment stats (IIRC, the one time Columbia was surpassed by NYU in recent history, it was because they had an unusually low bar passage rate). Next year's ranking might turn out to be NYU-Chicago-Columbia - not likely, but certainly possible.


Indeed. And a three-point jump by Columbia can't possibly be significant. Ask yourselves, what has happened in the past year to make Columbia substantially better thought of today than it was last year? The answer, of course, is nothing; it's margin-of-error noise.

(Bear in mind that I say this as someone who already chose NYU over Columbia, but I don't think that's influencing my thinking.)


Coming in a little late to reply to this but Columbia has actually made some changes recently, including hiring a bunch of new professors, thereby increasing curriculum and decreasing class size.

I expect Columbia to further increase their score in the next few years. CLS still has a pretty high student:faculty ratio compared to small schools like UChi or SLs; however, as office space continues to increase and the hiring drive continues I think CLS is hoping to add like 50 more professors. That probably would allow CL to raise their score a point or two.

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby FrankReynolds » Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:59 am

full disclosure: I attend NYU Law, was not accepted to Columbia, but would have attended Columbia had I been accepted

BUT any suggestion that NYU and Columbia are a tier apart is pretty absurd. Employment prospects are relatively the same. LSAT scores are within a standard deviation. Columbia has more students with ivy league undergrad--big deal...

NYU has better faculty overall, is in a MUCH better location, and the students are a bit more laid back--no one at NYU would ever ask for resumes as a prerequisite to attend a study group.

So now that I have more information, would I have attended Columbia instead if they accepted me? Probably...but there isn't much of a difference from the employer's perspective. Top students at both school do great during OCI. Bottom 25% struggle, and everyone else is pretty much in the same boat. The reason Columbia students might do slightly better than NYU students during OCI is that NYU just has a lot more straight-from-undergrad-and-I-want-to-save-the-world-not-work-for-a-big-firm-but-I-will-still-apply-for-the-summer-money kids

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby FrankReynolds » Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:02 am

This is pretty much exactly how I have always heard it. HYS CC NMVPB etc. It was always a major annoyance when people would say T5 and mean NYU, because nobody really sees it this way. In most traditional circles (which most law circles are) NYU is not Top 5, it is a notch below CC. Still a helluva school, but more in line with the above depiction than anything like NYU students claiming they should be number 4 over Columbia.


OCI for Class of 2011 proved this statement to be very, very wrong.

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby of Benito Cereno » Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:37 am

FrankReynolds wrote:
This is pretty much exactly how I have always heard it. HYS CC NMVPB etc. It was always a major annoyance when people would say T5 and mean NYU, because nobody really sees it this way. In most traditional circles (which most law circles are) NYU is not Top 5, it is a notch below CC. Still a helluva school, but more in line with the above depiction than anything like NYU students claiming they should be number 4 over Columbia.


OCI for Class of 2011 proved this statement to be very, very wrong.

how so?

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby holborn » Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:45 am

of Benito Cereno wrote:how so?


as someone who is choosing between the two, I would also really like to know this.

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby crackberry » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:12 pm

of Benito Cereno wrote:I, personally, would choose CLS over SLS (but I did not even apply to any west coast schools so I guess I don't count). However, I think most people would say that it would be dubious to pick HLS over YLS for the highest levels of clerkships, top fed jobs, and elite PI. However, everyone sees HLS and YLS as basically peers. Furthermore, is there evidence of a major difference between SLS and CLS in federal clerkship, fed job, and academic placement. From looking at Leiter data there doesn't seem to be that profound a difference. I think if you are interested in working on the East Coast (which includes probably well over half of the nations top legal jobs) CLS is a reasonable peer of SLS. Thats not to say SLS is usually not a better choice (it probably is) but that CLS is closer to SLS than it is to NYU. I never suggested that "peer" meant "equal." I think SLS:CLS is like YLS:HLS but thats probably a bit too generous to CLS but still not totally off.

Like I said, if you want East Coast BigLaw (particularly NYC but perhaps also DC), Columbia is at least as good a choice as Stanford. But wait, are you really suggesting Columbia even approaches Stanford in clerkship placement? The following indicate that not only does Stanford own Columbia when you adjust for the fact that Columbia is more than twice the size of Stanford, but also that SLS has more clerks overall than Columbia, even disregarding class size.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=75513

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2000 ... erks.shtml

http://lawclerkaddict.blogspot.com/2007 ... chool.html

http://lawclerkaddict.blogspot.com/2007 ... chool.html

And academia?

http://lsolum.typepad.com/legaltheory/2 ... eport.html

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008 ... hing.shtml

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2006 ... hing.shtml

Honestly all of this makes it seem like when we're talking about clerkships and academia, Yale is in another world and then Harvard and Stanford are peers, with Chicago right on the fringe and then that Columbia is a significant drop down. You can argue that's because CLS students overwhelming want BigLaw, but there you have it. To claim that Columbia and Stanford are peers when it comes to clerkship placement and academia is as disingenuous as claiming that Harvard and Yale are peers.

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby of Benito Cereno » Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:23 pm

,.,
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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby crackberry » Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:10 pm

of Benito Cereno wrote:It would seem to be more like: Y....................H....S....CC..........NBVM.

I will mostly agree with this (though in my opinion I think it's more like Y............H...S......CC.........NBVM), but I think it is easier to argue that Harvard and Stanford are in the same tier and that Yale is a tier above rather than it is Yale and Harvard with Stanford a tier below those two. I really think Yale is in a league of it's own. I will agree, though, that the notion of "tiers" is sort of stupid.

of Benito Cereno wrote:also, are you going to hls or sls?

I am going to Stanford, provided I don't get outright accepted at Yale, which looks unlikely at best at this point.

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby FrankReynolds » Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:05 pm

The NYU hate is ridiculous. NYU places in the job market much closer to Columbia than MVPB place to NYU. It was a bloodbath at MVPB by many accounts.

I know plenty of people at Columbia, and OCI really seemed about the same for NYU and Columbia this year. Again, one of the big difference is NYU has more students who have no work experience and don't really want to do biglaw, but want to pay off their loans. Columbia has more students with pipe dreams of becoming partner--but with these pipe dreams come a better shot at convincing the interviewer you actually want to be a corporate lawyer.

But if a clone attended both NYU and Columbia, and had the same grades, their differences in job placement would be negligible.

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby crackberry » Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:13 pm

FrankReynolds wrote:But if a clone attended both NYU and Columbia, and had the same grades, their differences in job placement would be negligible.

Even outside of NYC? I know a couple of attorneys in the SF area who went to CLS. None who went to NYU. Obviously anecdotal and small sample size, but it struck me as somewhat odd. BTW - I am not a CLS troll by any means, as you should be able to tell from my previous posts.

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby clintonius » Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:31 pm

I for one am pretty sure a CLS grad will do better outside of NYC than an NYU grad would. Doors are not closed to NYU grads elsewhere -- I know someone graduating this year who summered in SF after 2L and will be working at the SF branch in the fall -- but I think the reach of Columbia is broader. Note that this may or may not be true in DC. Perhaps it's that the difference becomes less noticeable the closer you get to NYC, less so on the Eastern seaboard, negligible in NYC.

All that with the disclaimer that I have mad NYU love.

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby Unemployed » Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:32 pm

FrankReynolds wrote:full disclosure: I attend NYU Law, was not accepted to Columbia, but would have attended Columbia had I been accepted

BUT any suggestion that NYU and Columbia are a tier apart is pretty absurd. Employment prospects are relatively the same. LSAT scores are within a standard deviation. Columbia has more students with ivy league undergrad--big deal...

NYU has better faculty overall, is in a MUCH better location, and the students are a bit more laid back--no one at NYU would ever ask for resumes as a prerequisite to attend a study group.

So now that I have more information, would I have attended Columbia instead if they accepted me? Probably...but there isn't much of a difference from the employer's perspective. Top students at both school do great during OCI. Bottom 25% struggle, and everyone else is pretty much in the same boat. The reason Columbia students might do slightly better than NYU students during OCI is that NYU just has a lot more straight-from-undergrad-and-I-want-to-save-the-world-not-work-for-a-big-firm-but-I-will-still-apply-for-the-summer-money kids


Where in the world is this myth from? Some NYU students seem to come up with all sorts of far-fetched reasons for its slight under-performance in prestigious biglaw placement, all the while bashing Columbia for being a corporate school with no public spirit.

http://www.law.columbia.edu/jd_applicants/admissions/classprofile

37% straight from undergrad

http://www.law.nyu.edu/admissions/jdadmissions/applicants/classprofile/index.htm

28% straight from undergrad

Of course, now that the truth has been revealed, having more people straight from UG is a handicap - you know, too many uninteresting kids straight from UG at Columbia. :evil:

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby Rand M. » Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:46 pm

C>N outside of NYC. Why is this so controversial to say? Seems pretty evident. NYU's strength diminishes when you are talking about the very top firms and placement outside of NYC (along with academia, clerkships, etc.) Basically NYU does quite well in NYC and less so elsewhere; this really doesn't seem too far off the beaten path.

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clintonius
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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby clintonius » Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:47 pm

To be fair, straight from undergrad isn't really the same as straight-from-undergrad-and-I-want-to-save-the-world-not-work-for-a-big-firm-but-I-will-still-apply-for-the-summer-money.

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby Unemployed » Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:07 pm

clintonius wrote:To be fair, straight from undergrad isn't really the same as straight-from-undergrad-and-I-want-to-save-the-world-not-work-for-a-big-firm-but-I-will-still-apply-for-the-summer-money.


I thought Z3RO also wrote something to that effect earlier in this thread, but he's a 0L and was merely speculating.

It's also ridiculous (and brilliant) that NYU manages to portray its students as laid back and public spirited when in fact a similar portion of its student body (a HUGE majority before ITE) sells out to the same sweatshops. But naw, they are simply taking a detour because of the loans. Unlike the soulless biglaw drones from Columbia and the econodwarves at Chicago, they still care about the world, even if they are working for Cravath. :lol:

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby FrankReynolds » Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:45 pm

To be fair, straight from undergrad isn't really the same as straight-from-undergrad-and-I-want-to-save-the-world-not-work-for-a-big-firm-but-I-will-still-apply-for-the-summer-money.


It really isn't. Plus people don't understand basic statistics. Just because Columbia has more students straight from undergrad, it doesn't mean they have more "confused" straight-from-undergrads. Columbia has a much greater % of students from Ivy undergrads. blabla.

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby BenJ » Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:50 pm

FrankReynolds wrote:
To be fair, straight from undergrad isn't really the same as straight-from-undergrad-and-I-want-to-save-the-world-not-work-for-a-big-firm-but-I-will-still-apply-for-the-summer-money.


It really isn't. Plus people don't understand basic statistics. Just because Columbia has more students straight from undergrad, it doesn't mean they have more "confused" straight-from-undergrads. Columbia has a much greater % of students from Ivy undergrads. blabla.


Why would being from an Ivy make one less "confused" straight from undergrad?




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