ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

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scribelaw
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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby scribelaw » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:25 am

Rand M. wrote:The credited response was always HYSCC, with N in the same tier if you were talking NYC and a tier below if you were talking about anywhere else. The truth is NYU just has a lot of regional strength that translates into monstrous NYC opportunities and slightly diminished results elsewhere. That was the case yesterday and will be so for a while. I always thought it was so silly that people ginned up on NYU referred to the "T5" when everyone who knows anything knows that if there were a top5 it would not include NYU.

To the OP's point: SLS seems to enjoy the same regional strength as NYU in certain ways. Not to say that it is a peer of NYU, because it is not, but outside of California it is more on par with CC. If you are talking about eastern placement the it seems to be Y H SCC(N), with N dropping off to the next tier if you are outside of NYC.

I would also like to note in all this how silly it is for people to overlook the fact that these are not huge changes. NYU's assessment scores were always more in line with MVPB. Likewise, CC were always a cut above, and usually either tied or very close to one another (something that people seem to always overlook).

Lastly, to the point about Epstein: Just no. His hiring will likely have no material effect because he has been splitting time all along. He was visiting at NYU and has now assumed a professorship; he was a professor at U of C and has assumed visiting status. He is still going to teach classes at both just like he has all along. NYU has a great faculty and that is reflected in it ranking at number 6. I really think that is probably the appropriate place for it to be ranked. For those who said NYU has the second or third best faculty, I ask what is your metric. It is certainly impressive, but I wonder what schools you are putting it ahead of to rank it so high.


I like NYU better than Columbia (on hold at CLS), but I'm mostly interested in DC market. Posts like this make me nervous. Why do you think NYU loses so much strength outside of NYC?

I was just talking with two professors at a different law school, and they both thought NYU = Columbia. Same with most lawyers I know. Anecdotal sample, but I usually find the people who are way more impressed with Columbia than NYU aren't lawyers.

Also, NYU seems fairly well represented at all the big DC firms, and they all come to the OCI at NYU. It seems like you have plenty of opportunity at NYU. Wouldn't your grades, resume, interviewing skillz matter more than whether you went to Columbia, Chicago or NYU?

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby of Benito Cereno » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:31 am

,.,
Last edited by of Benito Cereno on Mon May 17, 2010 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby Rand M. » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:53 am

scribelaw wrote:
Rand M. wrote:The credited response was always HYSCC, with N in the same tier if you were talking NYC and a tier below if you were talking about anywhere else. The truth is NYU just has a lot of regional strength that translates into monstrous NYC opportunities and slightly diminished results elsewhere. That was the case yesterday and will be so for a while. I always thought it was so silly that people ginned up on NYU referred to the "T5" when everyone who knows anything knows that if there were a top5 it would not include NYU.

To the OP's point: SLS seems to enjoy the same regional strength as NYU in certain ways. Not to say that it is a peer of NYU, because it is not, but outside of California it is more on par with CC. If you are talking about eastern placement the it seems to be Y H SCC(N), with N dropping off to the next tier if you are outside of NYC.

I would also like to note in all this how silly it is for people to overlook the fact that these are not huge changes. NYU's assessment scores were always more in line with MVPB. Likewise, CC were always a cut above, and usually either tied or very close to one another (something that people seem to always overlook).

Lastly, to the point about Epstein: Just no. His hiring will likely have no material effect because he has been splitting time all along. He was visiting at NYU and has now assumed a professorship; he was a professor at U of C and has assumed visiting status. He is still going to teach classes at both just like he has all along. NYU has a great faculty and that is reflected in it ranking at number 6. I really think that is probably the appropriate place for it to be ranked. For those who said NYU has the second or third best faculty, I ask what is your metric. It is certainly impressive, but I wonder what schools you are putting it ahead of to rank it so high.


I like NYU better than Columbia (on hold at CLS), but I'm mostly interested in DC market. Posts like this make me nervous. Why do you think NYU loses so much strength outside of NYC?

I was just talking with two professors at a different law school, and they both thought NYU = Columbia. Same with most lawyers I know. Anecdotal sample, but I usually find the people who are way more impressed with Columbia than NYU aren't lawyers.

Also, NYU seems fairly well represented at all the big DC firms, and they all come to the OCI at NYU. It seems like you have plenty of opportunity at NYU. Wouldn't your grades, resume, interviewing skillz matter more than whether you went to Columbia, Chicago or NYU?


A lot of the placement data I have seen suggests that in NYC they carry comparable weight. Outside of NYC and the picture changes. Your small anecdotal sample isn't necessarily a bad indicator, but USNWR asks more people, all of whom are lawyers as well. I don't think I would characterize it as weakness outside of NYC in the case of NYU. I think it is just a disproportionate level of strength within NYC. I think they have traditionally been the peer of MVPB, but people have begun to lump it with CC because of its outsized performance in the city. They place people in DC, but just not at the same level as CLS. You should not be nervous; you are going to a great school. I got into NYU, but have no interest at all in NYC so it just wasn't the right move for me. I'm sure career services people at NYU can tell you a lot more about DC placement than I can, I just know that there seems to be a difference between N and CC once you're outside of NYC. They are the new kid on the block and some of the old guard has not noticed their rise. If you like NYU then you have definitely made the right choice.

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby BenJ » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:55 am

scribelaw wrote:
Rand M. wrote:The credited response was always HYSCC, with N in the same tier if you were talking NYC and a tier below if you were talking about anywhere else. The truth is NYU just has a lot of regional strength that translates into monstrous NYC opportunities and slightly diminished results elsewhere. That was the case yesterday and will be so for a while. I always thought it was so silly that people ginned up on NYU referred to the "T5" when everyone who knows anything knows that if there were a top5 it would not include NYU.

To the OP's point: SLS seems to enjoy the same regional strength as NYU in certain ways. Not to say that it is a peer of NYU, because it is not, but outside of California it is more on par with CC. If you are talking about eastern placement the it seems to be Y H SCC(N), with N dropping off to the next tier if you are outside of NYC.

I would also like to note in all this how silly it is for people to overlook the fact that these are not huge changes. NYU's assessment scores were always more in line with MVPB. Likewise, CC were always a cut above, and usually either tied or very close to one another (something that people seem to always overlook).

Lastly, to the point about Epstein: Just no. His hiring will likely have no material effect because he has been splitting time all along. He was visiting at NYU and has now assumed a professorship; he was a professor at U of C and has assumed visiting status. He is still going to teach classes at both just like he has all along. NYU has a great faculty and that is reflected in it ranking at number 6. I really think that is probably the appropriate place for it to be ranked. For those who said NYU has the second or third best faculty, I ask what is your metric. It is certainly impressive, but I wonder what schools you are putting it ahead of to rank it so high.


I like NYU better than Columbia (on hold at CLS), but I'm mostly interested in DC market. Posts like this make me nervous. Why do you think NYU loses so much strength outside of NYC?

I was just talking with two professors at a different law school, and they both thought NYU = Columbia. Same with most lawyers I know. Anecdotal sample, but I usually find the people who are way more impressed with Columbia than NYU aren't lawyers.

Also, NYU seems fairly well represented at all the big DC firms, and they all come to the OCI at NYU. It seems like you have plenty of opportunity at NYU. Wouldn't your grades, resume, interviewing skillz matter more than whether you went to Columbia, Chicago or NYU?


Yes.

I will say that some of the NYU/Columbia distinction comes down to students' preference for NYC. NYU is really in an area that is NYC, in the best and worst ways. People come to NYU partially because they love NYC, and it's students strongly self-select to stay there.

People go to Columbia because it's a good school, and they often choose Columbia over NYU because they don't really like NYC but have to choose between the two (and Morningside Heights is more like a smaller city's environment). So Columbia grads are somewhat more likely to seek job opportunities outside of NYC.

This says basically nothing about placement. UVA might outperform both NYU and Columbia in DC--I'm not sure. But any serious difference between NYU and Columbia grads in DC is due to NYU grads generally preferring to stay in NYC rather than Columbia having magic door-opening powers that NYU does not.

The places where NYU does have a disadvantage are in the relatively remote (from NYC) areas of the country. Columbia will do you better in the Mountain West, in Texas, in the Deep South (no uppity "New York" in the school name), maybe on the West Coast (?). But not in the BosWash corridor.

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby Rand M. » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:00 am

BenJ wrote:
scribelaw wrote:
Rand M. wrote:The credited response was always HYSCC, with N in the same tier if you were talking NYC and a tier below if you were talking about anywhere else. The truth is NYU just has a lot of regional strength that translates into monstrous NYC opportunities and slightly diminished results elsewhere. That was the case yesterday and will be so for a while. I always thought it was so silly that people ginned up on NYU referred to the "T5" when everyone who knows anything knows that if there were a top5 it would not include NYU.

To the OP's point: SLS seems to enjoy the same regional strength as NYU in certain ways. Not to say that it is a peer of NYU, because it is not, but outside of California it is more on par with CC. If you are talking about eastern placement the it seems to be Y H SCC(N), with N dropping off to the next tier if you are outside of NYC.

I would also like to note in all this how silly it is for people to overlook the fact that these are not huge changes. NYU's assessment scores were always more in line with MVPB. Likewise, CC were always a cut above, and usually either tied or very close to one another (something that people seem to always overlook).

Lastly, to the point about Epstein: Just no. His hiring will likely have no material effect because he has been splitting time all along. He was visiting at NYU and has now assumed a professorship; he was a professor at U of C and has assumed visiting status. He is still going to teach classes at both just like he has all along. NYU has a great faculty and that is reflected in it ranking at number 6. I really think that is probably the appropriate place for it to be ranked. For those who said NYU has the second or third best faculty, I ask what is your metric. It is certainly impressive, but I wonder what schools you are putting it ahead of to rank it so high.


I like NYU better than Columbia (on hold at CLS), but I'm mostly interested in DC market. Posts like this make me nervous. Why do you think NYU loses so much strength outside of NYC?

I was just talking with two professors at a different law school, and they both thought NYU = Columbia. Same with most lawyers I know. Anecdotal sample, but I usually find the people who are way more impressed with Columbia than NYU aren't lawyers.

Also, NYU seems fairly well represented at all the big DC firms, and they all come to the OCI at NYU. It seems like you have plenty of opportunity at NYU. Wouldn't your grades, resume, interviewing skillz matter more than whether you went to Columbia, Chicago or NYU?


Yes.

I will say that some of the NYU/Columbia distinction comes down to students' preference for NYC. NYU is really in an area that is NYC, in the best and worst ways. People come to NYU partially because they love NYC, and it's students strongly self-select to stay there.

People go to Columbia because it's a good school, and they often choose Columbia over NYU because they don't really like NYC but have to choose between the two (and Morningside Heights is more like a smaller city's environment). So Columbia grads are somewhat more likely to seek job opportunities outside of NYC.

This says basically nothing about placement. UVA might outperform both NYU and Columbia in DC--I'm not sure. But any serious difference between NYU and Columbia grads in DC is due to NYU grads generally preferring to stay in NYC rather than Columbia having magic door-opening powers that NYU does not.


I don't think this is altogether true. I think some of the difference is due to a difference in the two schools. I say this because if you look at the most elite firms then the difference shows up again. If you are just talking about market paying jobs then it's a push. But, if you're talking about V5 V10 placement there is a noticeable gap. Again, I think when you're talking about this level of school, you're splitting hairs to find differences, but that doesn't mean there are no differences. I don't think its quite fair to dismiss any difference as self selection when there is other evidence that points to CLS's comparative strength. It's nothing big at all, but its something. I wouldn't say it is worth making a decision on the basis of it, but I also wouldn't dismiss it.

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby scribelaw » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:04 am

Rand M. wrote:
scribelaw wrote:
Rand M. wrote:The credited response was always HYSCC, with N in the same tier if you were talking NYC and a tier below if you were talking about anywhere else. The truth is NYU just has a lot of regional strength that translates into monstrous NYC opportunities and slightly diminished results elsewhere. That was the case yesterday and will be so for a while. I always thought it was so silly that people ginned up on NYU referred to the "T5" when everyone who knows anything knows that if there were a top5 it would not include NYU.

To the OP's point: SLS seems to enjoy the same regional strength as NYU in certain ways. Not to say that it is a peer of NYU, because it is not, but outside of California it is more on par with CC. If you are talking about eastern placement the it seems to be Y H SCC(N), with N dropping off to the next tier if you are outside of NYC.

I would also like to note in all this how silly it is for people to overlook the fact that these are not huge changes. NYU's assessment scores were always more in line with MVPB. Likewise, CC were always a cut above, and usually either tied or very close to one another (something that people seem to always overlook).

Lastly, to the point about Epstein: Just no. His hiring will likely have no material effect because he has been splitting time all along. He was visiting at NYU and has now assumed a professorship; he was a professor at U of C and has assumed visiting status. He is still going to teach classes at both just like he has all along. NYU has a great faculty and that is reflected in it ranking at number 6. I really think that is probably the appropriate place for it to be ranked. For those who said NYU has the second or third best faculty, I ask what is your metric. It is certainly impressive, but I wonder what schools you are putting it ahead of to rank it so high.


I like NYU better than Columbia (on hold at CLS), but I'm mostly interested in DC market. Posts like this make me nervous. Why do you think NYU loses so much strength outside of NYC?

I was just talking with two professors at a different law school, and they both thought NYU = Columbia. Same with most lawyers I know. Anecdotal sample, but I usually find the people who are way more impressed with Columbia than NYU aren't lawyers.

Also, NYU seems fairly well represented at all the big DC firms, and they all come to the OCI at NYU. It seems like you have plenty of opportunity at NYU. Wouldn't your grades, resume, interviewing skillz matter more than whether you went to Columbia, Chicago or NYU?


A lot of the placement data I have seen suggests that in NYC they carry comparable weight. Outside of NYC and the picture changes. Your small anecdotal sample isn't necessarily a bad indicator, but USNWR asks more people, all of whom are lawyers as well. I don't think I would characterize it as weakness outside of NYC in the case of NYU. I think it is just a disproportionate level of strength within NYC. I think they have traditionally been the peer of MVPB, but people have begun to lump it with CC because of its outsized performance in the city. They place people in DC, but just not at the same level as CLS. You should not be nervous; you are going to a great school. I got into NYU, but have no interest at all in NYC so it just wasn't the right move for me. I'm sure career services people at NYU can tell you a lot more about DC placement than I can, I just know that there seems to be a difference between N and CC once you're outside of NYC. They are the new kid on the block and some of the old guard has not noticed their rise. If you like NYU then you have definitely made the right choice.


I did ask NYU career office, they said 8-10 percent of students work in DC, every major firm participates at NYU OCI, and that market is a focus for them.

I guess the question I would really like to know is, how do similar situated students at NYU versus Columbia and Chicago, and then CCN versus MVP/ND, fare in getting DC jobs?

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby spondee » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:14 am

of Benito Cereno wrote:
scribelaw wrote:
Rand M. wrote:The credited response was always HYSCC, with N in the same tier if you were talking NYC and a tier below if you were talking about anywhere else. The truth is NYU just has a lot of regional strength that translates into monstrous NYC opportunities and slightly diminished results elsewhere. That was the case yesterday and will be so for a while. I always thought it was so silly that people ginned up on NYU referred to the "T5" when everyone who knows anything knows that if there were a top5 it would not include NYU.

To the OP's point: SLS seems to enjoy the same regional strength as NYU in certain ways. Not to say that it is a peer of NYU, because it is not, but outside of California it is more on par with CC. If you are talking about eastern placement the it seems to be Y H SCC(N), with N dropping off to the next tier if you are outside of NYC.

I would also like to note in all this how silly it is for people to overlook the fact that these are not huge changes. NYU's assessment scores were always more in line with MVPB. Likewise, CC were always a cut above, and usually either tied or very close to one another (something that people seem to always overlook).

Lastly, to the point about Epstein: Just no. His hiring will likely have no material effect because he has been splitting time all along. He was visiting at NYU and has now assumed a professorship; he was a professor at U of C and has assumed visiting status. He is still going to teach classes at both just like he has all along. NYU has a great faculty and that is reflected in it ranking at number 6. I really think that is probably the appropriate place for it to be ranked. For those who said NYU has the second or third best faculty, I ask what is your metric. It is certainly impressive, but I wonder what schools you are putting it ahead of to rank it so high.


I like NYU better than Columbia (on hold at CLS), but I'm mostly interested in DC market. Posts like this make me nervous. Why do you think NYU loses so much strength outside of NYC?

I was just talking with two professors at a different law school, and they both thought NYU = Columbia. Same with most lawyers I know. Anecdotal sample, but I usually find the people who are way more impressed with Columbia than NYU aren't lawyers.

Also, NYU seems fairly well represented at all the big DC firms, and they all come to the OCI at NYU. It seems like you have plenty of opportunity at NYU. Wouldn't your grades, resume, interviewing skillz matter more than whether you went to Columbia, Chicago or NYU?

Did you get into UVA? If so it is very significantly better at placing in DC than NYU (also its assessment scores are much higher). NYU is a great school but only very recently. As a result its reputation hasn't spread very well beyond its home market; especially as its home market is nyc and thus such a draw for its alums.
If you want DC for sure UVA might even be a better choice than CLS but it is a absolutely certain better choice than NYU.
Ok, so I see you're waitlisted. Well UVA would love to have you with those numbers so send a serious LOCI or something and I'm sure you'd get past that YP hurdle.


This is bad advice. TLS tends to overemphasize NYU's "weakness" outside of NYC. Even employers that don't live in NY know that NYU is an excellent school. DC is a notoriously hard market to break into, however; especially so if you don't already have ties to the city. So know that going in. UVA is the better choice if you like it better, but not because you'll struggle to get a job out of NYU.

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby scribelaw » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:37 am

One little shred of evidence that bothered me, re: NYU: At Williams & Connolly, there are about 20 lawyers from UofC, 10 from Columbia, and 2 from NYU.

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby clintonius » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:25 am

W&C is not representative of most firms. I've heard it called the most difficult firm in the nation to get hired at, and I doubt your data point is indicative of much. I would be curious to see what the numbers are like at most DC firms, though.

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby rayiner » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:35 am

This is a dumb thread. Nobody gives a shit about assessment scores in a vacuum. Columbia is not peers with Stanford.

http://www.prelawhandbook.com/law_schoo ... 00_present

This decade, Stanford has been #2 5 times, tied for #2 2 times, and #3 4 times. Columbia has never been #3, and has been #5 twice and tied with NYU at #4 once.

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby reverendt » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:41 am

OP....no offense, but if you're sitting around calculating this stuff....you need a hobby!

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Rand M.
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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby Rand M. » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:49 am

reverendt wrote:OP....no offense, but if you're sitting around calculating this stuff....you need a hobby!


In OP's defense:
1.) If you actually mean calculating, then thats not what the OP did. They just read USNWR numbers and compared them. No calculations involved.
2.) If you just meant thinking about this stuff in general then I disagree with the sentiment. When you are about to fork out 200k for something I think its advisable to consider everything.

Either way I don't really get where the hostility comes from. This thread is kind of par for the course on TLS.

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby clintonius » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:57 am

Further, re: DC hiring: Covington and Burling doesn't appear to have biographies searchable by law school, but WilmerHale, Arnold and Porter, and Hogan and Hartson do (Jones Day does, as well, but the search does not distinguish between law school, other graduate school and undergrad. I'll include the numbers at the bottom but they may be inaccurate).

WH
Columbia: 52 (overall), 23 (DC)
Chicago: 22, 9
NYU: 43, 6

A&P
C: 31, 16
Ch: 13, 9
N: 39, 16

H&H
C: 40, 16
Ch: 9, 1
N: 54, 18

JD (likely includes undergrad as well as law school and therefore not representative)
C: 105, 15
Ch: 47, 8
N: 103, 5

So WilmerHale does seem to give you a better shot at DC from C or Ch than from NYU, as does Jones Day if those numbers are accurate. C and N are tied at A&P for DC placement, with N having a slight edge in overall hires, and at H&H you are better off from N for placement at DC and elsewhere.

Keep in mind that these are just firms that have their HQ in DC. I'll take a look at the V10 firms with DC offices when I have time.
Last edited by clintonius on Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:59 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby reverendt » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:58 am

Rand M. wrote:
reverendt wrote:OP....no offense, but if you're sitting around calculating this stuff....you need a hobby!


In OP's defense:
1.) If you actually mean calculating, then thats not what the OP did. They just read USNWR numbers and compared them. No calculations involved.
2.) If you just meant thinking about this stuff in general then I disagree with the sentiment. When you are about to fork out 200k for something I think its advisable to consider everything.

Either way I don't really get where the hostility comes from. This thread is kind of par for the course on TLS.


It's not hostility at all...my comment was intended to be generally good natured. I'm basing it on this statement:
So earlier today I calculated from lsn that last year 80% of matriculating nyu students were not admitted to CLS.


In general, some of the folks here treat these arbitrary rankings like it's the superbowl or something.
I guess if you really get turned on by law school admissions stats and rankings, more power to you!

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby scribelaw » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:04 pm

clintonius wrote:Further, re: DC hiring: Covington and Burling doesn't appear to have biographies searchable by law school, but WilmerHale, Arnold and Porter, and Hogan and Hartson do (Jones Day does, as well, but the search does not distinguish between law school, other graduate school and undergrad. I'll include the numbers at the bottom but they may be inaccurate).

WH
Columbia: 52 (overall), 23 (DC)
Chicago: 22, 9
NYU: 43, 6

A&P
C: 31, 16
Ch: 13, 9
N: 39, 16

H&H
C: 40, 16
Ch: 9, 1
N: 54, 18

JD (likely includes undergrad as well as law school and therefore not representative)
C: 105, 15
Ch: 47, 8
N: 103, 5

So WilmerHale does seem to give you a better shot at DC from C or Ch than from NYU, as does Jones Day if those numbers are accurate. C and N are tied at A&P for DC placement, with N having a slight edge in overall hires, and at H&H you are better off from N for placement at DC and elsewhere.

Keep in mind that these are just firms that have their HQ in DC. I'll take a look at the V10 firms with DC offices when I have time.


This is awesome! Thanks.

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Rand M.
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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby Rand M. » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:08 pm

reverendt wrote:
Rand M. wrote:
reverendt wrote:OP....no offense, but if you're sitting around calculating this stuff....you need a hobby!


In OP's defense:
1.) If you actually mean calculating, then thats not what the OP did. They just read USNWR numbers and compared them. No calculations involved.
2.) If you just meant thinking about this stuff in general then I disagree with the sentiment. When you are about to fork out 200k for something I think its advisable to consider everything.

Either way I don't really get where the hostility comes from. This thread is kind of par for the course on TLS.


It's not hostility at all...my comment was intended to be generally good natured. I'm basing it on this statement:
So earlier today I calculated from lsn that last year 80% of matriculating nyu students were not admitted to CLS.


In general, some of the folks here treat these arbitrary rankings like it's the superbowl or something.
I guess if you really get turned on by law school admissions stats and rankings, more power to you!


Cool.

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby Z3RO » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:20 pm

clintonius wrote:Further, re: DC hiring: Covington and Burling doesn't appear to have biographies searchable by law school, but WilmerHale, Arnold and Porter, and Hogan and Hartson do (Jones Day does, as well, but the search does not distinguish between law school, other graduate school and undergrad. I'll include the numbers at the bottom but they may be inaccurate).

WH
Columbia: 52 (overall), 23 (DC)
Chicago: 22, 9
NYU: 43, 6

A&P
C: 31, 16
Ch: 13, 9
N: 39, 16

H&H
C: 40, 16
Ch: 9, 1
N: 54, 18

JD (likely includes undergrad as well as law school and therefore not representative)
C: 105, 15
Ch: 47, 8
N: 103, 5

So WilmerHale does seem to give you a better shot at DC from C or Ch than from NYU, as does Jones Day if those numbers are accurate. C and N are tied at A&P for DC placement, with N having a slight edge in overall hires, and at H&H you are better off from N for placement at DC and elsewhere.

Keep in mind that these are just firms that have their HQ in DC. I'll take a look at the V10 firms with DC offices when I have time.

Awesome post. I was nodding right along with the people saying that NYU's placement outside of NYC is limited, and that Columbia would seriously outperform it in DC. Then you dropped this bomb.

I wonder if some of the Columbia people are actually "older" than the NYU ones on average as well, meaning that NYU might actually be slightly outperforming Columbia there in recent years.

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clintonius
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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby clintonius » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:01 pm

So I've done the same for V10 firms with 1) a DC office and 2) attorneys searchable by law school on their web site. Given that all of these listed here are headquartered in NYC, except for Kirkland, which is based in Chicago, I'm not sure how useful the info is. Does anybody have a list of the 10 or so most prominent DC-based firms? That would probably be much more helpful to people gauging their shot at DC. Anyways.

Skadden
C: 136, 6
Ch: 66, 6
N: 124, 12

Sullivan
C: 95, 3
Ch: 19, 0
N: 69, 1

Davis Polk
C: 123, 1
Ch: 12, 0
N: 95, 0

Simpson
C: 126, 1
Ch: 15, 0
N: 103, 0

Cleary
C: 127, 4
Ch: 36, 4
N: 152, 5

Kirkland
C: 57, 6
Ch: 103, 11
N: 65, 4

Chicago shows a clear edge in DC and overall hiring at the firm based in Chicago, which is no surprise. Otherwise there is no advantage to Chi over NYU, and you're slightly better off from NYU going to Cleary in DC and significantly better off at Skadden. But like I said, DC isn't the primary market for any of these firms. Also the numbers are so small that the difference likely fluctuates.

Looking at this, my assumption was that these DC offices hire many more people from UVA and Georgetown than any of CCN. I had the Cleary tab still open while typing that, and it showed 16 attorneys from Gtown and only 1 from UVA in the DC office, which surprised me. I checked the Skadden site and they show 49 from Georgetown and only 12 from UVA. Kirkland has 40 Gtown, 8 UVA. So, long story short: if you want to work at a super elite firm, go to school where they're headquartered. If you want to work at their DC office, go to a DC school. Georgetown outplaces UVA in these particular firms and I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case elsewhere. None of the CCN schools will beat out Georgetown if you really want to work in DC.

Aaaand obviously I am highly motivated at work today.

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Unemployed
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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby Unemployed » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:05 pm

Remember that NYU is larger than Columbia (and much larger than Chicago) - normally by about 80 people.

Also, relative placement =/= relative ease of placement.

holborn
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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby holborn » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:56 pm

I would like to say that the idea that you cant leave nyc if you have an nyu degree is becoming a little to pervasive on this board. people know nyu is a fantastic school. maybe it is on columbias level, maybe it isnt. but to say that a georgetown degree would be more useful, even for dc, is taking it one (maybe two) steps too far.

It has been shown that people go to DC based firms out of nyu, but lets also remember thats not the only way. NYU places extremely well at prestigeous firms in nyc. another route could be to try to land one of these biglaw jobs, work as an associate for a few years, and then jump ship for a dc firm. at that point the pretty firm name on your resume will matter more than the school (which is a really damn good school anyway). Most people who start at these big firms dont make partner, and generally dont stay more than a few years.

if you LOVED both schools, money is equal, you have no gut feelings, etc, then yes picking columbia because it has 3 more attorneys at one specific dc based firm might make sense. but if you like nyu and you would be happier, go there. there are SO many more factors. grades, interviewing skills, where you do your summer internships, etc. And its not like you would be turning down columbia for cooley. you would be turning it down for the (now) 6th best school in the nation.

Id also like to echo the statement made by the above poster. just b/c there are more people coming out of georgetown doesnt mean that its EASIER out of georgetown. It would be interesting to see how many nyu/georgetwon people were vying for those positions versus how many offers were given out. (in percentages, of course, considering there would be a larger number of GULC grades trying to get DC jobs.)

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scribelaw
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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby scribelaw » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:13 pm

clintonius wrote:So I've done the same for V10 firms with 1) a DC office and 2) attorneys searchable by law school on their web site. Given that all of these listed here are headquartered in NYC, except for Kirkland, which is based in Chicago, I'm not sure how useful the info is. Does anybody have a list of the 10 or so most prominent DC-based firms? That would probably be much more helpful to people gauging their shot at DC. Anyways.


Top DC firms, just taken from the Biglaw directory: Williams Connolly, Jones Day, Hogan Hartson, Wilmer Cutler, Akin Gump, Arnold Porter, Howrey, Covington Burlington, Steptoe Johnson, Patton Boggs, Venable, McKenna Long, Dickstein Shapiro

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Rand M.
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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby Rand M. » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:33 pm

to echo the sentiments of an above poster I hope that no one is forgetting to mentally adjust for the fact that NYU's normal class size is about 450, CLS is usually about 400 and U of C is usually about 200. That's just a good thing to keep in mind when looking at raw numbers. I usually just double the chicago number and subtract a few from the nyu number to try to get an accurate picture.

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby Unemployed » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:58 pm

Rand M. wrote:to echo the sentiments of an above poster I hope that no one is forgetting to mentally adjust for the fact that NYU's normal class size is about 450, CLS is usually about 400 and U of C is usually about 200. That's just a good thing to keep in mind when looking at raw numbers. I usually just double the chicago number and subtract a few from the nyu number to try to get an accurate picture.


CLS is normally 370, although that might change.

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby imchuckbass58 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:00 pm

I tend to be a pretty big Columbia fan and am pretty quick to point out certain areas where I believe Columbia does have perceptible placement advantages over NYU (for example, super-elite NYC biglaw).

That said, I think it's absolutely ridiculous to infer anything from a 1 spot drop in ranking, or a 4 point raw score disparity, or even a 0.2 difference in reputation scores. While the general structure of the USNews rankings are probably correct, there's a huge degree of false precision and small fluctuations (unless multi-year) are largely due to statistical noise. Given that academics can only give whole-number scores, do you really think that a 0.2 difference indicates anything? It means a couple of people though Columbia was marginally better than NYU. To infer any sort of difference vs. last year is crazy.

For 95% of people, whether you choose NYU or Columbia will not affect your job prospects in the slightest. For the rest, I imagine the difference is marginal (i.e., you go to S&C instead of cravath, or get a clerkship on the 2nd circuit instead of the 3rd circuit).

Choose based on 1) where in the city you want to be, 2) what the schools have to offer in and out of the classroom, and 3) the people you want to spend the next 3 years with.

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crackberry
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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby crackberry » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:08 pm

The only place Columbia is a peer with Stanford is East Coast BigLaw, where Chicago (and NYU in NYC) is also a peer to SLS.

Tell me, if you really wanted a prestigious clerkship, a hard-to-get government gig or some sort of "elite" PI job, would you really pick CLS over SLS with $$ being equal? I doubt it, and if you did, you'd be making a dubious choice.

Granted, TLS has an obsession with NYC and DC BigLaw so if that's the only thing that matters to you, then sure, pick CLS over SLS.




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