ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

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holborn
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Re: CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby holborn » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:56 pm

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Last edited by holborn on Sun Dec 19, 2010 2:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

09042014
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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby 09042014 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:02 pm

Assessment scores have a pretty low response rate. Reputation is also highly regional.

I wouldn't put much stock in magazine rankings. Look at job placement data, clerking data, etc etc.

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clintonius
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Re: CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby clintonius » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:03 pm

taxman021 wrote:im going to nyu next year and i have to agree with what of Benito Cereno has said so far for the most part. on a side note, who cares about rankings, we dropped one point...but we also stole richard epstein for good from uchicago. that alone will probably help us gain back the #5 spot within the next few years

HAROLD KOH TO NYU 2011

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thecilent
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Re: CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby thecilent » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:06 pm

julesm2200 wrote:
Cilent21 wrote:
interesting. Although I still maintain that grades matter more. Now if I could just figure out if living in the west village would make me happier, thereby decreasing my stress level and increasing my ability to study, or just drunker.


Haha I think MS Heights would be better if you are looking for decreased stressed and increased ability to study. Although I'm not positive. I haven't been accepted to either school (I apply in the fall), but these are really the only two schools I want to go to.. And right now I give CLS the edge


probably. unfortunately i think my happiness is directly related to amount of time spent going out and the west village definitely wins in that regard. Isolating myself an hour train ride away from all my friends would certainly give me plenty of time to study though...


So true. Well, I'm interested to see what you decide. Make sure you let me know when you do, and why you chose

taxman021
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Re: CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby taxman021 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:07 pm

clintonius wrote:
taxman021 wrote:im going to nyu next year and i have to agree with what of Benito Cereno has said so far for the most part. on a side note, who cares about rankings, we dropped one point...but we also stole richard epstein for good from uchicago. that alone will probably help us gain back the #5 spot within the next few years

HAROLD KOH TO NYU 2011


that would be so incredibly sick. not gonna happen tho haha

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of Benito Cereno
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Re: CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby of Benito Cereno » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:09 pm

taxman021 wrote:
clintonius wrote:
taxman021 wrote:im going to nyu next year and i have to agree with what of Benito Cereno has said so far for the most part. on a side note, who cares about rankings, we dropped one point...but we also stole richard epstein for good from uchicago. that alone will probably help us gain back the #5 spot within the next few years

HAROLD KOH TO NYU 2011


that would be so incredibly sick. not gonna happen tho haha

Harold Koh to scotus 2010. or not.

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Re: CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby blue5385 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:10 pm

julesm2200 wrote:
of Benito Cereno wrote:
julesm2200 wrote:Do hiring partners at biglaw firms fill out peer assessment scores? because thats when i'll start caring about them.

judge/lawyer assessment and yes! I happen to know a Vault 5 partner who participates in hiring and he has in the past participated in USNWR surveys. Also, I happen to know quite a few biglaw attorneys and I spoke to a whole bunch after I got into NYU and CLS and they all seemed to think that CLS was really the obvious choice and couldn't believe me when I said most of us students see them as peers/brothers-from-another-mother.


interesting. Although I still maintain that grades matter more. Now if I could just figure out if living in the west village would make me happier, thereby decreasing my stress level and increasing my ability to study, or just drunker.


I was thinking about this because I absolutely loved the West Village when I went to visit both schools last month, but I was kind of indifferent to MH (probably not the first person to have that reaction when comparing the 2 neighborhoods). I'll probably end up at CLS, which is fine by me since MH seems way more conducive to studying (and when it's time to have fun I'll hop on the 1 train and go downtown :D )

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clintonius
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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby clintonius » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:11 pm

I mean, Miller from Harvard, Epstein from Chicago, fucking everyone who matters from Columbia. It could happen. (No, this post not made in earnest.)

Ninjaedit -- I would love to see Koh on SCOTUS. That would be even better than bringing him to NYU.

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clintonius
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Re: CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby clintonius » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:11 pm

blue5385 wrote:(and when it's time to have fun I'll hop on the 1 train and go downtown :D )

And get there just in time to turn around and go home!

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thecilent
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Re: CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby thecilent » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:12 pm

I was thinking about this because I absolutely loved the West Village when I went to visit both schools last month, but I was kind of indifferent to MH (probably not the first person to have that reaction when comparing the 2 neighborhoods). I'll probably end up at CLS, which is fine by me since MH seems way more conducive to studying (and when it's time to have fun I'll hop on the 1 train and go downtown :D


This is what I am thinking to be TCR

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby taxman021 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:16 pm

clintonius wrote:I mean, Miller from Harvard, Epstein from Chicago, fucking everyone who matters from Columbia. It could happen. (No, this post not made in earnest.)

Ninjaedit -- I would love to see Koh on SCOTUS. That would be even better than bringing him to NYU.


i guess we should just buy Koh a condo:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/20/reale ... deal1.html

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clintonius
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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby clintonius » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:18 pm

taxman021 wrote:
clintonius wrote:I mean, Miller from Harvard, Epstein from Chicago, fucking everyone who matters from Columbia. It could happen. (No, this post not made in earnest.)

Ninjaedit -- I would love to see Koh on SCOTUS. That would be even better than bringing him to NYU.


i guess we should just buy Koh a [strike]condo[/strike] castle:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/20/reale ... deal1.html

fixed

blue5385
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Re: CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby blue5385 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:21 pm

clintonius wrote:
blue5385 wrote:(and when it's time to have fun I'll hop on the 1 train and go downtown :D )

And get there just in time to turn around and go home!


ha, it is slow, maybe I'll need to switch to the 2 or 3 at some point then :)

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby BenJ » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:40 pm

Unemployed wrote:Ranking within mini-tiers is capricious, as the schools' relative positions respond sensitively to bar passage rates and employment stats (IIRC, the one time Columbia was surpassed by NYU in recent history, it was because they had an unusually low bar passage rate). Next year's ranking might turn out to be NYU-Chicago-Columbia - not likely, but certainly possible.


Indeed. And a three-point jump by Columbia can't possibly be significant. Ask yourselves, what has happened in the past year to make Columbia substantially better thought of today than it was last year? The answer, of course, is nothing; it's margin-of-error noise.

(Bear in mind that I say this as someone who already chose NYU over Columbia, but I don't think that's influencing my thinking.)

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clintonius
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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby clintonius » Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:50 pm

BenJ wrote:Ask yourselves, what has happened in the past year to make Columbia substantially better thought of today than it was last year? The answer, of course, is nothing; it's margin-of-error noise.

Untrue -- they lost faculty to NYU, meaning they are secure enough in their [strike]sexuality[/strike] prestige that they can afford to throw a dog a bone without missing a step.

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dbt
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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby dbt » Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:55 pm

As far as assessment score goes Columbia really increased this year and is closer to Stanford. I'm impressed.

I don't think anyone at NYU is worried about the drop. First, it's one spot. Second, NYU's overall score didn't actually change (Chicago just jumped 4 points somehow and Columbia 3). Finally, as has been noted in the OP, NYU has probably the 2nd or 3rd best faculty of any law school in the nation and, by the numbers, the 4th best students. The law school is also very near and dear to the President of the University, who was Dean of the Law School before becoming the President, so it continues to get a lot of attention and resources.

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby aguyingeorgia » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:16 pm

Agree with DBT here.

One thing that occurs AFTER you get in school is that you realize the light shifts here and there don't really mean anything.

And, NYU Law has an absolutely superb faculty, in line with what DBT said.

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of Benito Cereno
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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby of Benito Cereno » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:46 am

If I were at NYU I would be worried about the assessment scores being lower than Berkley, Penn, Michigan, and Virginia's. Especially as that lends credence to the oft-made claim that outside of NYC NYU has the cache of a lower-T14. If I were wavering on NYU right now I would really be concerned if I had any interest in working outside of NYC. If you want to work outside of the city it seems like most other Top-10 schools are a better bet as NYU admits most likely have $ at those schools. Michigan with $ is a way better bet for outside of NYC than NYU.

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Unemployed
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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby Unemployed » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:50 am

of Benito Cereno wrote:If I were at NYU I would be worried about the assessment scores being lower than Berkley, Penn, Michigan, and Virginia's. Especially as that lends credence to the oft-made claim that outside of NYC NYU has the cache of a lower-T14. If I were wavering on NYU right now I would really be concerned if I had any interest in working outside of NYC. If you want to work outside of the city it seems like most other Top-10 schools are a better bet as NYU admits most likely have $ at those schools. Michigan with $ is a way better bet for outside of NYC than NYU.


I think it's silly, but NYU's drop will undoubtedly have a non-negligible effect on its yield - particularly in cross-admit battles against Columbia and Chicago. People already in law school know better, but 0L's... well.

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby of Benito Cereno » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:03 am

Unemployed wrote:
of Benito Cereno wrote:If I were at NYU I would be worried about the assessment scores being lower than Berkley, Penn, Michigan, and Virginia's. Especially as that lends credence to the oft-made claim that outside of NYC NYU has the cache of a lower-T14. If I were wavering on NYU right now I would really be concerned if I had any interest in working outside of NYC. If you want to work outside of the city it seems like most other Top-10 schools are a better bet as NYU admits most likely have $ at those schools. Michigan with $ is a way better bet for outside of NYC than NYU.


I think it's silly, but NYU's drop will certainly have a non-negligible effect on its yield - particularly in cross-admit battles against Columbia and Chicago. People already in law school know better, but 0L's... well.

but there are some data pieces in the rankings that really should be useful in picking schools. sure the assement scores are sloppy but the major difference between nyu's and chicago/columbia's and the fact that nyu's are lower than all other top-10s is meaningful, because, as I said above, it speaks to the school's ability to place outside of the city. That is a reasonable reason for anyone thinking of nyu to stop and think. Its not just a question of superficial prestige-whoring. Its not fair becuase NYU is a better school and with smarter students and a way better faculty than all those other top-10s but NYU also is a new-comer whose reputation/network outside the city is clearly lagging behind. And here's the thing: sad as it may be that stuff REALLY matters. The worth of the degree is not derived from the quality of the students and faculty (that stuff only effects the value of the education). The worth of the degree is very closely tied up with its brand. And if you're thinking of working outside of nyc big-law then I'd worry about that brand. Furthermore, much of nyu's appeal is aimed at students who don't have nyc big-law tunnel vision. NYU is supposed to appeal to people interested in legal theory, law and politics, international law, ngo work, public interest/government. Also, if big-law placement is your main interest then its clear chicago and columbia are stronger. People tend to pick nyu because of interests beyond nyc biglaw but it would seem that its elite status is most tied up with its ability to place students only in that world.

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby Dtackpat75 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:28 am

of Benito Cereno wrote:
Unemployed wrote:
of Benito Cereno wrote:If I were at NYU I would be worried about the assessment scores being lower than Berkley, Penn, Michigan, and Virginia's. Especially as that lends credence to the oft-made claim that outside of NYC NYU has the cache of a lower-T14. If I were wavering on NYU right now I would really be concerned if I had any interest in working outside of NYC. If you want to work outside of the city it seems like most other Top-10 schools are a better bet as NYU admits most likely have $ at those schools. Michigan with $ is a way better bet for outside of NYC than NYU.


I think it's silly, but NYU's drop will certainly have a non-negligible effect on its yield - particularly in cross-admit battles against Columbia and Chicago. People already in law school know better, but 0L's... well.

but there are some data pieces in the rankings that really should be useful in picking schools. sure the assement scores are sloppy but the major difference between nyu's and chicago/columbia's and the fact that nyu's are lower than all other top-10s is meaningful, because, as I said above, it speaks to the school's ability to place outside of the city. That is a reasonable reason for anyone thinking of nyu to stop and think. Its not just a question of superficial prestige-whoring. Its not fair becuase NYU is a better school and with smarter students and a way better faculty than all those other top-10s but NYU also is a new-comer whose reputation/network outside the city is clearly lagging behind. And here's the thing: sad as it may be that stuff REALLY matters. The worth of the degree is not derived from the quality of the students and faculty (that stuff only effects the value of the education). The worth of the degree is very closely tied up with its brand. And if you're thinking of working outside of nyc big-law then I'd worry about that brand. Furthermore, much of nyu's appeal is aimed at students who don't have nyc big-law tunnel vision. NYU is supposed to appeal to people interested in legal theory, law and politics, international law, ngo work, public interest/government. Also, if big-law placement is your main interest then its clear chicago and columbia are stronger. People tend to pick nyu because of interests beyond nyc biglaw but it would seem that its elite status is most tied up with its ability to place students only in that world.


I would say NYU's elite status comes from being the center of public interest law (sending a larger percentage of their grads (and they are a big school too) into public interest law than any of their peer schools) while still having elite biglaw placement in the largest city in the world for legal employment.

I mean I visited NYU (still picked columbia over it though) and was extremely impressed. It is by all means an elite law school. The way I look at it is that out of the T6 (there really is no distinguishable T5) there are 3 elite large schools and 3 small ones. H, Col, NYU and Y, S, Chi. there are advantages to going to a small school and advantages to going to a large school. I feel that comparisons this way actually make more sense as it is easier to see the direct advantages of H over Columbia than H over S and so on. But that is just my take.

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby of Benito Cereno » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:42 am

,.,
Last edited by of Benito Cereno on Mon May 17, 2010 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Rand M.
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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby Rand M. » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:45 am

The credited response was always HYSCC, with N in the same tier if you were talking NYC and a tier below if you were talking about anywhere else. The truth is NYU just has a lot of regional strength that translates into monstrous NYC opportunities and slightly diminished results elsewhere. That was the case yesterday and will be so for a while. I always thought it was so silly that people ginned up on NYU referred to the "T5" when everyone who knows anything knows that if there were a top5 it would not include NYU.

To the OP's point: SLS seems to enjoy the same regional strength as NYU in certain ways. Not to say that it is a peer of NYU, because it is not, but outside of California it is more on par with CC. If you are talking about eastern placement the it seems to be Y H SCC(N), with N dropping off to the next tier if you are outside of NYC.

I would also like to note in all this how silly it is for people to overlook the fact that these are not huge changes. NYU's assessment scores were always more in line with MVPB. Likewise, CC were always a cut above, and usually either tied or very close to one another (something that people seem to always overlook).

Lastly, to the point about Epstein: Just no. His hiring will likely have no material effect because he has been splitting time all along. He was visiting at NYU and has now assumed a professorship; he was a professor at U of C and has assumed visiting status. He is still going to teach classes at both just like he has all along. NYU has a great faculty and that is reflected in it ranking at number 6. I really think that is probably the appropriate place for it to be ranked. For those who said NYU has the second or third best faculty, I ask what is your metric. It is certainly impressive, but I wonder what schools you are putting it ahead of to rank it so high.

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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby badfish » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:04 am

So after I heard about the drop, I visited NYU this morning to see the damage. To my surprise, it was the EXACT SAME SCHOOL as it was yesterday.

go figure.

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Rand M.
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Re: ASSESSMENT SCORES! CLS vs NYU vs SLS (new rankings)

Postby Rand M. » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:10 am

badfish wrote:So after I heard about the drop, I visited NYU this morning to see the damage. To my surprised, it was the EXACT SAME SCHOOL as it was yesterday.

go figure.


This reminds me of Obama's response to the right saying that the health care fight was the apocalypse/Armageddon. It's very true; nothing has changed.




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