True or False: a 3.5 from HYPS > 3.8 from a T15-20 undergrad

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charlesjd
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Re: True or False: a 3.5 from HYPS > 3.8 from a T15-20 undergrad

Postby charlesjd » Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:36 am

scribelaw wrote:
charlesjd wrote:
lshopeful3232 wrote:fwiw, i went to a top 10 ug and i really think it's one of the main reasons i was waitlisted and not flat our rejected at some of the schools i applied to since my numbers were below medians. so while i dont think it allows me to have lower numbers, it definitely has helped keep me in the running at some places i think


Maybe a reason, not a main reason. If it were between you and another with exactly the same numbers, and he went to TTTT state school, then yeah. All that really matters is that the school you go to is not online and is accredited lol. It is ALL numbers..... Duh.


I don't think this is true.

If you have two candidates -- both with a 3.7/172 -- the one who went to Yale will get into CCN over the one who went to a TTT directional school every time. These are prestigious law schools who are into such things.

Now if the guy from Yale has a 3.6/168, it won't matter. Your numbers have to be in the ballpark. But at the borders, I think it absolutely makes a difference. I think it's one of the best softs you can have, IMHO. (One that I don't have, by the way).


Thank you for reiterating what I just said... LOL

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violinst
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Re: True or False: a 3.5 from HYPS > 3.8 from a T15-20 undergrad

Postby violinst » Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:39 am

legalnoeagle wrote:
The statistics for GPA and class rank I'm getting from the LSDAS Academic report generated for my school. Such that there is a difference between relative GPAs and ranks between schools, I still think that the median LSAT of law school applicants (from a particular school) should factor more heavily in an AdComm's evaluation of either class rank or GPA (as reported by LSAC)--at least more than LSN and anecdotal evidence would indicate.

I'm not sure how you can know any of the HYPS GPA averages; each administration has gone great lengths to conceal them, and the only numbers that exist are from student polls, which are obviously self-selective. If there is a difference in the LSAC reported numbers and the real averages, I'm sure the LSAC data probably overstates inflation, what with the majority of applicants being of the less rigorous liberal arts variety.


Study on grade inflation. Sorry, Yale's average was 3.51 in 2008, which was among the highest.
1963 2.56
1967 2.77
1975 3.27
1977 3.31
1981 3.27
2006 3.48
2008 3.51


http://gradeinflation.com/yale.html

I however have no way to verify it. If it is indeed factual, that is quite some inflation.
Last edited by violinst on Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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crackberry
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Re: True or False: a 3.5 from HYPS > 3.8 from a T15-20 undergrad

Postby crackberry » Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:43 am

violinst wrote:Study on grade inflation. Sorry, Yale's average was 3.51 in 2008, which was among the highest.

http://gradeinflation.com/yale.html

Wow, a 2.56 average in 1963. Our generation is so much smarter than our parents/grandparents' generations!!!

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TheBigMediocre
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Re: True or False: a 3.5 from HYPS > 3.8 from a T15-20 undergrad

Postby TheBigMediocre » Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:52 am

crackberry wrote:
TheBigMediocre wrote:
kittenmittons wrote:
crackberry wrote:No, this is wrong. At the top law schools (HYS and Chicago most notably, and also Penn apparently), UG prestige definitely means something. It's not a magic bullet, but it's definitely a solid soft and I do think there is a small boost.

One of these does not belong


I read through the rest of the thread and literally the only thing I could think of was, "which one of these doesn't belong?" Can someone enlighten me to what I'm missing?

Uh, really?


Jesus, I just re-read that. He was saying law school. I was thinking undergraduate schools. I kept thinking, "HYS/Chicago/Penn are all great UG institutions..."

/facepalm

legalnoeagle
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Re: True or False: a 3.5 from HYPS > 3.8 from a T15-20 undergrad

Postby legalnoeagle » Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:53 am

violinst wrote:
legalnoeagle wrote:
The statistics for GPA and class rank I'm getting from the LSDAS Academic report generated for my school. Such that there is a difference between relative GPAs and ranks between schools, I still think that the median LSAT of law school applicants (from a particular school) should factor more heavily in an AdComm's evaluation of either class rank or GPA (as reported by LSAC)--at least more than LSN and anecdotal evidence would indicate.

I'm not sure how you can know any of the HYPS GPA averages; each administration has gone great lengths to conceal them, and the only numbers that exist are from student polls, which are obviously self-selective. If there is a difference in the LSAC reported numbers and the real averages, I'm sure the LSAC data probably overstates inflation, what with the majority of applicants being of the less rigorous liberal arts variety.


Study on grade inflation. Sorry, Yale's average was 3.51 in 2008, which was among the highest.
1963 2.56
1967 2.77
1975 3.27
1977 3.31
1981 3.27
2006 3.48
2008 3.51


http://gradeinflation.com/yale.html

I however have no way to verify it. If it is indeed factual, that is quite some inflation.


The article cited only mentions honors, and I have to admit, I'm not sure I understand the methodology he employed to arrive at these numbers, which seem awfully high.

ze2151
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Re: True or False: a 3.5 from HYPS > 3.8 from a T15-20 undergrad

Postby ze2151 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:56 am

sorry, my blue-blooded friend. looks like grade inflation is part of higher education. even at yale. what part of the methodology are you specifically questioning? i'm not a stat guy so help me there. i'm inclined to trust the data because it appears to reflect what we know anecdotally.

legalnoeagle
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Re: True or False: a 3.5 from HYPS > 3.8 from a T15-20 undergrad

Postby legalnoeagle » Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:59 am

ze2151 wrote:sorry, my blue-blooded friend. looks like grade inflation is part of higher education. even at yale. what part of the methodology are you specifically questioning? i'm not a stat guy so help me there. i'm inclined to trust the data because it appears to reflect what we know anecdotally.



estimated by calibrating Latin honors cutoffs to deciles from Princeton and Macalester and Latin honors cutoffs from Duke



Hardly a blue-blood, and certainly presumptuous of you to assume I graduated from Yale.

09042014
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Re: True or False: a 3.5 from HYPS > 3.8 from a T15-20 undergrad

Postby 09042014 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:06 am

It's pretty clear Uchi law, and Penn law do care a little bit, but even then its only at the edges.

But I don't really see much indication other schools care. I think it helps Splitters of both variety, and it gives weight to the GPA for the high GPA splitters, and also gives an excuse for the low gpa splitters.

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violinst
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Re: True or False: a 3.5 from HYPS > 3.8 from a T15-20 undergrad

Postby violinst » Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:14 am

Desert Fox wrote:It's pretty clear Uchi law, and Penn law do care a little bit, but even then its only at the edges.

But I don't really see much indication other schools care. I think it helps Splitters of both variety, and it gives weight to the GPA for the high GPA splitters, and also gives an excuse for the low gpa splitters.


From what I saw at Michigan's ASW, Michigan cares too. I believe that it is their way of maintaining the good quality of their student body: they can't get people with the highest numbers, so they get people from good schools. Dean Z specifically wrote on my letter that they want ("love" actually) students from my LAC (it's not a bad school). I also got a sizable scholarship despite my mediocre numbers.
Last edited by violinst on Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:16 am, edited 2 times in total.

zanyventer
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Re: True or False: a 3.5 from HYPS > 3.8 from a T15-20 undergrad

Postby zanyventer » Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:15 am

maybe not a 3.5 > 3.8, but a 3.5 > 3.7

definitely got the same money from a t10 with a 3.5 from hyps that people from other schools got with 3.7s

09042014
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Re: True or False: a 3.5 from HYPS > 3.8 from a T15-20 undergrad

Postby 09042014 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:23 am

violinst wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:It's pretty clear Uchi law, and Penn law do care a little bit, but even then its only at the edges.

But I don't really see much indication other schools care. I think it helps Splitters of both variety, and it gives weight to the GPA for the high GPA splitters, and also gives an excuse for the low gpa splitters.


From what I saw at Michigan's ASW, Michigan cares too. I believe that it is their way of maintaining the good quality of their student body: they can't get people with the highest numbers, so they get people from good schools. Dean Z specifically wrote on my letter that they want ("love" actually) students from my LAC (it's not a bad school). I also got a sizable scholarship despite my mediocre numbers.


That can be misleading. People with high LSAT's likely could have gotten into many good undergrads. Of course you are going to see a huge sampling from them at any top law school.

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violinst
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Re: True or False: a 3.5 from HYPS > 3.8 from a T15-20 undergrad

Postby violinst » Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:31 am

Desert Fox wrote:
violinst wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:It's pretty clear Uchi law, and Penn law do care a little bit, but even then its only at the edges.

But I don't really see much indication other schools care. I think it helps Splitters of both variety, and it gives weight to the GPA for the high GPA splitters, and also gives an excuse for the low gpa splitters.


From what I saw at Michigan's ASW, Michigan cares too. I believe that it is their way of maintaining the good quality of their student body: they can't get people with the highest numbers, so they get people from good schools. Dean Z specifically wrote on my letter that they want ("love" actually) students from my LAC (it's not a bad school). I also got a sizable scholarship despite my mediocre numbers.


That can be misleading. People with high LSAT's likely could have gotten into many good undergrads. Of course you are going to see a huge sampling from them at any top law school.


True. It's just my gut feeling from attending their ASW. But, based on how they give scholarships (LSN), there may be some truth in it.

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calicocat
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Re: True or False: a 3.5 from HYPS > 3.8 from a T15-20 undergrad

Postby calicocat » Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:33 am

kittenmittons wrote:15: Cornell
16: Brown
17: Emory
17: Rice
17: Vanderbilt
20: Notre Dame

Since the above schools are barely even accredited universities, true.

god I hate you

APimpNamedSlickback
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Re: True or False: a 3.5 from HYPS > 3.8 from a T15-20 undergrad

Postby APimpNamedSlickback » Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:51 am

kittenmittons wrote:15: Cornell
16: Brown
17: Emory
17: Rice
17: Vanderbilt
20: Notre Dame

Since the above schools are barely even accredited universities, true.


barely?

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calicocat
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Re: True or False: a 3.5 from HYPS > 3.8 from a T15-20 undergrad

Postby calicocat » Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:53 am

APimpNamedSlickback wrote:
kittenmittons wrote:15: Cornell
16: Brown
17: Emory
17: Rice
17: Vanderbilt
20: Notre Dame

Since the above schools are barely even accredited universities, true.


barely?

See above post

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Mattalones
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Re: True or False: a 3.5 from HYPS > 3.8 from a T15-20 undergrad

Postby Mattalones » Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:57 am

How would people on here think the top public schools help (e.g. Berkeley, UCLA, UVA, Umich, UNC)?

I can't imagine the average student in the top 25% at HYPS being any more capable than the average top 25% student at Berkeley, UCLA, or UVA ... They may just have less $$$ (and that isn't always the case either).

I mean, tuition at Harvard (P/Y/S) v Berkeley (UCLA/UVA) is a no brainer if you have to consider costs ($37,000 v $8,000), and many people who got into HPYS w/scholarships went public b/c it was still cheaper w/o scholarship.

I don't really think it matters for LS admissions. Imagine ...

AdCom: "Applicants X and Y, both with 170 LSATs, have GPAs of 3.8 from Harvard and Berkeley, respectively."

What would not happen: "Admit the Harvard kid because he went to Harvard, and reject the Berkeley kid b/c he went to Berkeley."

What would happen: "Let's look to their personal statements to see what each student would contribute to the class."

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stratocophic
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Re: True or False: a 3.5 from HYPS > 3.8 from a T15-20 undergrad

Postby stratocophic » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:14 am

Mattalones wrote:How would people on here think the top public schools help (e.g. Berkeley, UCLA, UVA, Umich, UNC)?

I can't imagine the average student in the top 25% at HYPS being any more capable than the average top 25% student at Berkeley, UCLA, or UVA ... They may just have less $$$ (and that isn't always the case either).
Top 25% covers a looooot of ground at schools that big. I'd guess that if anything the comparison would be more apt as you climb higher and higher in the class rank, e.g. approaching the 10% and 5% marks would give you more and more equality.

Edit: Up to a certain point. Maybe a few at the peak of a top public can roll with the top of HYP, but I doubt that the numbers will be very near to equal.
Last edited by stratocophic on Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

zanyventer
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Re: True or False: a 3.5 from HYPS > 3.8 from a T15-20 undergrad

Postby zanyventer » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:15 am

Mattalones wrote:I can't imagine the average student in the top 25% at HYPS being any more capable than the average top 25% student at Berkeley, UCLA, or UVA ... They may just have less $$$ (and that isn't always the case either).

I mean, tuition at Harvard (P/Y/S) v Berkeley (UCLA/UVA) is a no brainer if you have to consider costs ($37,000 v $8,000), and many people who got into HPYS w/scholarships went public b/c it was still cheaper w/o scholarship.


can't really say this anymore. hyps have some of the best scholarship/financial aid resources. if you're rich, why wouldn't you go to hyps? and if you're poor, hyps will throw money at you to have you attend (entirely need-based and no loans). for many lower-income students, hyps is cheaper than their state school.

flcath
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Re: True or False: a 3.5 from HYPS > 3.8 from a T15-20 undergrad

Postby flcath » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:17 am

False.

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stratocophic
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Re: True or False: a 3.5 from HYPS > 3.8 from a T15-20 undergrad

Postby stratocophic » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:18 am

zanyventer wrote:
Mattalones wrote:I can't imagine the average student in the top 25% at HYPS being any more capable than the average top 25% student at Berkeley, UCLA, or UVA ... They may just have less $$$ (and that isn't always the case either).

I mean, tuition at Harvard (P/Y/S) v Berkeley (UCLA/UVA) is a no brainer if you have to consider costs ($37,000 v $8,000), and many people who got into HPYS w/scholarships went public b/c it was still cheaper w/o scholarship.


can't really say this anymore. hyps have some of the best scholarship/financial aid resources. if you're rich, why wouldn't you go to hyps? and if you're poor, hyps will throw money at you to have you attend (entirely need-based and no loans). for many lower-income students, hyps is cheaper than their state school.
Absolutely correct. Even regional private schools do it at this point in time. The only ones getting screwed are the middle of the middle class, who have the option of crushing debt or a state school. Only time I've ever been glad I was at the bottom of the middle class.

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Mattalones
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Re: True or False: a 3.5 from HYPS > 3.8 from a T15-20 undergrad

Postby Mattalones » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:43 am

I guess ... I just see so much trading between HYSP and schools like Berkeley, UCLA, and UVA (e.g. faculty, students from one degree program to the next, etc) that the actual quality doesn't seems different in the scheme of things. And that whole bit about being poor making HYPS more affordable than a top public isn't always true. My ExGF and several of my friends went to UCLA over Harvard b/c the public scholarship made UG cheaper. I mean, I would would totally go to H, Y or S over UCLA, UVA, and Berkeley for LS, but not for undergrad, especially if I knew I planned to go to grad school (I cared about sports in UG, though :D ).

EDIT: I realize LS admissions is a beast of its own, and, at one point, I even wished I studied the easiest major at a total joke of a school just to have my 4.0 on LSDAS ... Looking back, there is no way I would have traded the experience for a few tenths of a grade points.

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taw856
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Re: True or False: a 3.5 from HYPS > 3.8 from a T15-20 undergrad

Postby taw856 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:50 am

It feels like there are two separate arguments in this thread: 1. What DOES happen in law school admissions with the OP's hypothetical? and 2. What SHOULD happen in law school admissions?

Regarding what DOES happen, exceptions aside, it's clear that in comparing people with lesser grades from elite schools and people with elite grades from lesser schools, having the higher GPA tends to be the more advantageous position, largely because of USNWR's influence. Like it or not, that's how it is. Given that USNWR probably isn't going away anytime soon, the only way this is changing is if one of those two groups starts significantly outperforming the other once admitted to the point where it can't be ignored.

Regarding what SHOULD happen, this seems to me to be far more inherently subjective. As has been mentioned, people choose their undergraduate institution for a whole lot of reasons and money sometimes trumps prestige. And as has been mentioned but not stressed enough, people get lesser grades for a whole of reasons, ranging from tougher competition to legitimate personal obstacles to laziness to stupidity.

I mean, take immaturity as an example. I'm not even sure what the "right" answer is on how that should be weighed. Assuming an unfocused kid has matured, is it more unfair to deny someone really smart admission just because they took longer to grow up and take their studies seriously initially or is it more unfair to deny someone less naturally talented admission when they've put in significantly more effort to try to earn their way?

The best answer I can see is this, which is quoted as already happening, and it's obviously subjective too:
Mattalones wrote:"Let's look to their personal statements to see what each student would contribute to the class."


To put it another way, if Steve Jobs can drop out and found Apple, I don't think either "HYP's 3.5" or "T15-20 3.8" is inherently better -- that's too small a slice of information about a person to definitively know their capability.

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Unitas
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Re: True or False: a 3.5 from HYPS > 3.8 from a T15-20 undergrad

Postby Unitas » Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:04 am

legalnoeagle wrote:

What % of the students in this class receive As? At my HYP the average was about 20-30%: and this was before the crackdown on grade inflation.

And what percentile is your current GPA?



Mean GPA for my UG is 2.80, for Econ majors it is a 2.2, mainly because classes "when curved" are curved to a C and students from other majors self select into some Econ classes they will love. Like in Economics of Fiscal Policy class there were three history majors out of 18 students, two of them got A's - other one dropped due to an F (so glad I didn't take this class).

Generally As are top 10%. Without a hard curve working some classes will just have more As and some will have less.

I am one of the top students.

Crackberry: I do think it is and should be a soft. It, however, should not be some hard boost as this thread argues.

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somewhatwayward
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Re: True or False: a 3.5 from HYPS > 3.8 from a T15-20 undergrad

Postby somewhatwayward » Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:10 am

crackberry wrote:I think the underlined represents a pretty serious flaw. I went to Stanford, where, according to LSAC, my 3.89 put me in the 89th percentile of GPAs. But there is no way a 3.89 is 89th percentile at Stanford, where a ton of really smart engineers who don't even know what law school is get 3.3s despite working 80 hours a week.


that's interesting. my HYP 3.87 put me at the 93rd percentile according to LSAC. i guess you can't draw any conclusions based on such a small amount of data, but i would kind of expect that my school would be more inflated than S.

can't really say this anymore. hyps have some of the best scholarship/financial aid resources. if you're rich, why wouldn't you go to hyps? and if you're poor, hyps will throw money at you to have you attend (entirely need-based and no loans). for many lower-income students, hyps is cheaper than their state school.


yeah, this is true in a lot of cases. harvard got a lot of media attention for their most recent FA plan, which is free tuition for any family making 60,000 a year or less and 10% of income for any family between 60,000 to 180,000. if your family makes 80,000+, then 8,000 a year at berkeley is cheaper, but at 80,000-120,000, it's hardly different, and at 120,000+, we're out of lower-middle class territory. the FA office will also work with people who have extenuating circumstances.

in the vast majority of cases, it is not money that keeps people from attending HYP. what keeps them from attending is that they aren't admitted (under the completely need-blind admissions process).

money is a factor in being admitted in that it can allow you to build a more impressive resume, but admissions officers are aware of this and strive to evaluate people based on how well they took advantage of the opportunities they had. they expect more from a wealthy applicant. it is not a completely fair process, but it is a lot less unfair than people make it seem.

What would not happen: "Admit the Harvard kid because he went to Harvard, and reject the Berkeley kid b/c he went to Berkeley."


of course that wouldn't happen. i do think it influences people on a more subtle level, though.

i don't think a HYPS 3.5 trumps even a 3.8 from an average school (let alone a T15-20) in most cases, but i have noticed that an HYP 3.8+ seems to be as good or better than 3.9+ from elsewhere.

also, HYPS can be a protective factor against what would be an unadmittable GPA otherwise.

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crackberry
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Re: True or False: a 3.5 from HYPS > 3.8 from a T15-20 undergrad

Postby crackberry » Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:33 pm

I am very proud of the sea change I seem to have initiated on TLS (using solely this thread as my evidence) that the upper tier of UGs should be HYPS and not just HYP. I feel this is an appropriate legacy.




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