Cardozo $ over Fordham...is it that crazy?

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sjedood
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Cardozo $ over Fordham...is it that crazy?

Postby sjedood » Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:45 pm

I know the typical reaction that one should attend the "best school" they get into. People have told me if I intend to work in "Big Law" then I must choose Fordham. I believe that people underestimate the burden of debt. I believe that if I will succeed in law school, both school will give me opportunity to get high paying jobs at large firms. Yes, Fordham places more students than Cardozo does at bigger firms, but is the difference in employment statistics really worth 200k? People seem to think at Cardozo you must be top 10-15% to get a top job--that isn't what the statistics read, and yes I am aware of the games schools can play with statistics. Further, Cardozo has been climbing higher and higher in the rankings, as it is growing and only 30 years old. Though it isn't a deciding factor, Cardozo's facility is much nicer than Fordham's.

At the same time, I recognize that Fordham is a more prestigious and well grounded school with a much larger alumni net. Reasoning that Fordham is the better choice is much easier then arguing the opposite, and that is why I list so many pros to choosing Cardozo. In reality, I am stuck in the middle and the deposit deadline is approaching.

Please list your thoughts!

reverendt
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Re: Cardozo $ over Fordham...is it that crazy?

Postby reverendt » Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:47 pm

I think it depends on what you want to do. If you're a "biglaw or bust" person, pay up and go to Fordham.
On the other hand, if you want to work for a smaller firm/PI/DA's office, etc., taking the $ at Dozo might be the smart way to go.
What is the cost difference?

blsingindisguise
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Re: Cardozo $ over Fordham...is it that crazy?

Postby blsingindisguise » Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:50 pm

Neither school gives you a great shot at a "high paying job at a large firm" these days, although Fordham gives you a considerably better shot than Cardozo. If that's what you really want, go to Fordham and take the debt.

While it's not true that Cardozo gives you a 10-15% chance at "a job", it gives you no more than a 10% shot at a big firm with a big salary. Don't fall into the trap of thinking "that's ok, I'd be fine making 130k instead of 160k" because there just aren't a lot of jobs like that out there - the legal world is polarized and there's a big dropoff after biglaw.

Even if Dozo moves up five places in the ranks by the time you graduate (which is a longshot) it's not going to make a lick of difference because you'll still be at the 4th best school in NYC.

sjedood
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Re: Cardozo $ over Fordham...is it that crazy?

Postby sjedood » Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:51 pm

reverendt wrote:I think it depends on what you want to do. If you're a "biglaw or bust" person, pay up and go to Fordham.
On the other hand, if you want to work for a smaller firm/PI/DA's office, etc., taking the $ at Dozo might be the smart way to go.
What is the cost difference?

I believe the tuition is similar, and Cardozo is offering about 80% scholarship. I am not "big law or bust", but if I have a job offer at a big firm, I would probably go that route.

blsingindisguise
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Re: Cardozo $ over Fordham...is it that crazy?

Postby blsingindisguise » Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:52 pm

So you're not biglaw-or-bust, but it doesn't sound like you really want low-paid public interest or govt, or 40K at an insurance defense firm. So take Fordham.

sjedood
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Re: Cardozo $ over Fordham...is it that crazy?

Postby sjedood » Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:53 pm

blsingindisguise wrote:Neither school gives you a great shot at a "high paying job at a large firm" these days, although Fordham gives you a considerably better shot than Cardozo. If that's what you really want, go to Fordham and take the debt.

While it's not true that Cardozo gives you a 10-15% chance at "a job", it gives you no more than a 10% shot at a big firm with a big salary. Don't fall into the trap of thinking "that's ok, I'd be fine making 130k instead of 160k" because there just aren't a lot of jobs like that out there - the legal world is polarized and there's a big dropoff after biglaw.

Even if Dozo moves up five places in the ranks by the time you graduate (which is a longshot) it's not going to make a lick of difference because you'll still be at the 4th best school in NYC.

how do you reason that only top 10% at Cardozo can get jobs that are high paying?

Kretzy
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Re: Cardozo $ over Fordham...is it that crazy?

Postby Kretzy » Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:11 pm

blsingindisguise wrote:So you're not biglaw-or-bust, but it doesn't sound like you really want low-paid public interest or govt, or 40K at an insurance defense firm. So take Fordham.


-1. An increase in the chance of "Biglaw" from 10-15% to 20-25% isn't worth an extra 120K in debt, plus interest.

flcath
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Re: Cardozo $ over Fordham...is it that crazy?

Postby flcath » Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:13 pm

sjedood wrote:
blsingindisguise wrote:Neither school gives you a great shot at a "high paying job at a large firm" these days, although Fordham gives you a considerably better shot than Cardozo. If that's what you really want, go to Fordham and take the debt.

While it's not true that Cardozo gives you a 10-15% chance at "a job", it gives you no more than a 10% shot at a big firm with a big salary. Don't fall into the trap of thinking "that's ok, I'd be fine making 130k instead of 160k" because there just aren't a lot of jobs like that out there - the legal world is polarized and there's a big dropoff after biglaw.

Even if Dozo moves up five places in the ranks by the time you graduate (which is a longshot) it's not going to make a lick of difference because you'll still be at the 4th best school in NYC.

how do you reason that only top 10% at Cardozo can get jobs that are high paying?


http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/20080414employment_trends.pdf

And these were the salad days.

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ZXCVBNM
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Re: Cardozo $ over Fordham...is it that crazy?

Postby ZXCVBNM » Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:18 pm

if oci is the same as last year than the extra money isn't worth it. very few got big law at fordham. if things get better than fordham will provide a much higher chance of getting big law. So go put on your tinfoil hat and try to figure out what the market will do.

rando
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Re: Cardozo $ over Fordham...is it that crazy?

Postby rando » Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:20 pm

sjedood wrote:
blsingindisguise wrote:Neither school gives you a great shot at a "high paying job at a large firm" these days, although Fordham gives you a considerably better shot than Cardozo. If that's what you really want, go to Fordham and take the debt.

While it's not true that Cardozo gives you a 10-15% chance at "a job", it gives you no more than a 10% shot at a big firm with a big salary. Don't fall into the trap of thinking "that's ok, I'd be fine making 130k instead of 160k" because there just aren't a lot of jobs like that out there - the legal world is polarized and there's a big dropoff after biglaw.

Even if Dozo moves up five places in the ranks by the time you graduate (which is a longshot) it's not going to make a lick of difference because you'll still be at the 4th best school in NYC.

how do you reason that only top 10% at Cardozo can get jobs that are high paying?


Depends on your definition of high paying but if you're talking biglaw, then that seems accurate to me considering what is happening at similar ranked schools.

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kaydish21
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Re: Cardozo $ over Fordham...is it that crazy?

Postby kaydish21 » Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:21 pm

OP, I am making almost exactly the same choice and posted it in another thread today with a poll. I'm surprised how many ppl have chosen Cardozo, but I think I am leaning towards Fordham as I want a firm job and more options in general. Here's the thread.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=114110

flcath
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Re: Cardozo $ over Fordham...is it that crazy?

Postby flcath » Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:23 pm

Let me also say that much of the "polarity" people attribute to law jobs is based on the bimodal distribution graph from NALP. That graph is only first year salaries; the left mode ($45K-$55K) tends to rise pretty consistently with experience, and while the right one rises faster, more people jump ship from it.

So basically, the legal field is as polarized as people say, but ending up with a $50K salary (note: this model assumes you will get a job) and $100K in debt isn't as bad as the math would immediately suggest.

And if it's sticker Fordham vs. full-ride at 'Dozo, you'd be crazy to opt for the former. A $10K/yr difference, I think, Fordham can justify.

sjedood
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Re: Cardozo $ over Fordham...is it that crazy?

Postby sjedood » Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:28 pm

rando wrote:
sjedood wrote:
blsingindisguise wrote:Neither school gives you a great shot at a "high paying job at a large firm" these days, although Fordham gives you a considerably better shot than Cardozo. If that's what you really want, go to Fordham and take the debt.

While it's not true that Cardozo gives you a 10-15% chance at "a job", it gives you no more than a 10% shot at a big firm with a big salary. Don't fall into the trap of thinking "that's ok, I'd be fine making 130k instead of 160k" because there just aren't a lot of jobs like that out there - the legal world is polarized and there's a big dropoff after biglaw.

Even if Dozo moves up five places in the ranks by the time you graduate (which is a longshot) it's not going to make a lick of difference because you'll still be at the 4th best school in NYC.

how do you reason that only top 10% at Cardozo can get jobs that are high paying?


Depends on your definition of high paying but if you're talking biglaw, then that seems accurate to me considering what is happening at similar ranked schools.

But Cardozo has a leg up on similarly ranked schools -- it is in NYC

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Cardozo $ over Fordham...is it that crazy?

Postby OperaSoprano » Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:54 pm

OP, does your scholarship have any GPA requirements? That is a major consideration that a lot of people take far too lightly. I also turned down a decent amount of money from Cardozo to pay sticker at Fordham, and I'm glad I did, even though I was not gunning for biglaw. You should know that even ITE, an impressive number of firms are coming here. We suffered in the last OCI, as did many of our peers, but the economy is showing signs of life and people are reacting with cautious optimism.

I ran a quick NALP employer search, and found 110 law firms conducting OCI at Cardozo, v. 253 firms coming to Fordham. For comparison, NYU got 432 and NYLS got just 23. BC got 149, and BU got 137.

I would also prefer not to be in debt, but I have always maintained that my school is worth the money. Nearly one year on I remain happy with my own decision.

rundoxierun
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Re: Cardozo $ over Fordham...is it that crazy?

Postby rundoxierun » Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:00 pm

How does Fordham get mentioned in almost every single topic?? Seriously, you would think the elite schools were HYSF if you didnt know any better.

blsingindisguise
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Re: Cardozo $ over Fordham...is it that crazy?

Postby blsingindisguise » Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:00 pm

sjedood wrote:But Cardozo has a leg up on similarly ranked schools -- it is in NYC


The opposite is true. Cardozo competes with three better NYC schools, every other top school in the country (because people from every top school want NYC biglaw), Brooklyn (which places about the same) and schools like St. Johns and Hofstra which aren't far behind.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Cardozo $ over Fordham...is it that crazy?

Postby OperaSoprano » Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:16 pm

tkgrrett wrote:How does Fordham get mentioned in almost every single topic?? Seriously, you would think the elite schools were HYSF if you didnt know any better.


I lol'd. Fordham doesn't pay me a cent.... not even in scholarship money. It's a labor of love. :lol:

sjedood
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Re: Cardozo $ over Fordham...is it that crazy?

Postby sjedood » Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:27 pm

blsingindisguise wrote:
sjedood wrote:But Cardozo has a leg up on similarly ranked schools -- it is in NYC


The opposite is true. Cardozo competes with three better NYC schools, every other top school in the country (because people from every top school want NYC biglaw), Brooklyn (which places about the same) and schools like St. Johns and Hofstra which aren't far behind.

I dont think the opposite is true. Every school competes with each other, and any candidate looking for employment in NYC must compete with others from NYU and Columbia. What I am saying is that Cardozo has a leg up when competing for big law jobs over schools not in NY that are ranked right near it simply because any school in a city will place better than another school that is not in that city when the two schools are similarly ranked. If school A and school B are ranked 39 and 40, but school B is in NY and school A is not, school B most likely "has a leg up" in terms of getting jobs in NY.

flcath
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Re: Cardozo $ over Fordham...is it that crazy?

Postby flcath » Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:30 pm

blsingindisguise wrote:
sjedood wrote:But Cardozo has a leg up on similarly ranked schools -- it is in NYC


The opposite is true. Cardozo competes with three better NYC schools, every other top school in the country (because people from every top school want NYC biglaw), Brooklyn (which places about the same) and schools like St. Johns and Hofstra which aren't far behind.

Brooklyn does not place "about the same" as Fordham.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Cardozo $ over Fordham...is it that crazy?

Postby OperaSoprano » Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:34 pm

flcath wrote:
blsingindisguise wrote:
sjedood wrote:But Cardozo has a leg up on similarly ranked schools -- it is in NYC


The opposite is true. Cardozo competes with three better NYC schools, every other top school in the country (because people from every top school want NYC biglaw), Brooklyn (which places about the same) and schools like St. Johns and Hofstra which aren't far behind.

Brooklyn does not place "about the same" as Fordham.


I think the argued comparison was Cardozo = BLS, or thereabouts.

blsingindisguise
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Re: Cardozo $ over Fordham...is it that crazy?

Postby blsingindisguise » Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:37 pm

To be clear

1) Yes I was saying BLS places like Dozo, not Fordham

2) If you're saying Dozo has an advantage for NYC biglaw specifically over another 50-ish school, you might be right. But a 40-50 school that's top in its market is going to give you a better overall chance at a good job than Dozo, provided you're willing to work in another market.

flcath
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Re: Cardozo $ over Fordham...is it that crazy?

Postby flcath » Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:44 pm

blsingindisguise wrote:To be clear

1) Yes I was saying BLS places like Dozo, not Fordham

2) If you're saying Dozo has an advantage for NYC biglaw specifically over another 50-ish school, you might be right. But a 40-50 school that's top in its market is going to give you a better overall chance at a good job than Dozo, provided you're willing to work in another market.


1) Ah. Apologies.

2) My only real "regret" as far as applications was not applying to UTex for this exact reason (UT isn't a 40-50, but you get the drift).

sjedood
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Re: Cardozo $ over Fordham...is it that crazy?

Postby sjedood » Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:45 pm

blsingindisguise wrote:To be clear

1) Yes I was saying BLS places like Dozo, not Fordham

2) If you're saying Dozo has an advantage for NYC biglaw specifically over another 50-ish school, you might be right. But a 40-50 school that's top in its market is going to give you a better overall chance at a good job than Dozo, provided you're willing to work in another market.

Even so, that still may not be accurate, as you have to consider the amount of top paying jobs available in other smaller markets are far less than in new york, and it is entirely possible that the top firms can only take 5-10 percent of the class even without giants like Columbia or NYU.
Regardless, this is too theoretical to argue and I doubt either of us can substantiate either point.

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quickquestionthanks
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Re: Cardozo $ over Fordham...is it that crazy?

Postby quickquestionthanks » Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:51 pm

A friend told me that a few partners at his NYC firm said that they will never hire any Cardozo students. PM me if you want the name of that firm. It's not a V10 or anything. There's just a pretty sour reputation in the minds of partners because of how bad it used to be. Now that the field is much more competitive and the quality of student is better, they probably don't produce such terrible lawyers, but the perception is out there.




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