If you had to choose ND or IU-Bloomington??

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bobo11111111111
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If you had to choose ND or IU-Bloomington??

Postby bobo11111111111 » Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:46 am

I'm looking at the possibility of attending law school after I earn my Masters in Economics/Finance. My gpa is low-3.14, however, I have 3+ years of solid work expeirence for a Fortune 500 company.

With help from some of these soft factors, I'm thinking a 164 would get me into IU-Bloomington, but what about ND? 167?

Lets say that everything went right, and I did hit a 167. Which school would you choose assuming that no money was offered? I see that both schools are ranked the same, but ND has the better name.

What about the job prospects at both?? I would assume that they'd be pretty reasonable.

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RickyRoe
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Re: If you had to choose ND or IU-Bloomington??

Postby RickyRoe » Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:28 pm

ND cares more about GPA than IU. 164 might get you into IU, but ND would take close to 170. I would go to ND over IU, but that might be because I am an Irish fan.

bobo11111111111
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Re: If you had to choose ND or IU-Bloomington??

Postby bobo11111111111 » Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:39 pm

RickyRoe wrote:ND cares more about GPA than IU. 164 might get you into IU, but ND would take close to 170. I would go to ND over IU, but that might be because I am an Irish fan.



I have noticed that ND cares more about gpa than IU-Bloomington. But, it seemed at least according to lsn's that a 167 would give an applicant a reasonable shot with a gpa as low as mine.

Anyways other than being an ND fan, why else would you choose ND??? ND is a little pricy.

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Spaceman Spiff
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Re: If you had to choose ND or IU-Bloomington??

Postby Spaceman Spiff » Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:48 pm

bobo11111111111 wrote:
RickyRoe wrote:ND cares more about GPA than IU. 164 might get you into IU, but ND would take close to 170. I would go to ND over IU, but that might be because I am an Irish fan.



I have noticed that ND cares more about gpa than IU-Bloomington. But, it seemed at least according to lsn's that a 167 would give an applicant a reasonable shot with a gpa as low as mine.

Anyways other than being an ND fan, why else would you choose ND??? ND is a little pricy.


I imagine he suggests ND over IUB for two reasons:

1. It's usually argued that the Notre Dame name increases its portability.

2. Many people think IUB is highly overranked.


The issue here, though, is that if you get into both, not only is ND's tuition high, you'll likely get much more money at IUB. At least, this is my experience.

bobo11111111111
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Re: If you had to choose ND or IU-Bloomington??

Postby bobo11111111111 » Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:06 pm

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
bobo11111111111 wrote:
RickyRoe wrote:ND cares more about GPA than IU. 164 might get you into IU, but ND would take close to 170. I would go to ND over IU, but that might be because I am an Irish fan.



I have noticed that ND cares more about gpa than IU-Bloomington. But, it seemed at least according to lsn's that a 167 would give an applicant a reasonable shot with a gpa as low as mine.

Anyways other than being an ND fan, why else would you choose ND??? ND is a little pricy.


I imagine he suggests ND over IUB for two reasons:

1. It's usually argued that the Notre Dame name increases its portability.

2. Many people think IUB is highly overranked.


The issue here, though, is that if you get into both, not only is ND's tuition high, you'll likely get much more money at IUB. At least, this is my experience.


Can you explain why many people think that IU-Bloomington is overranked?

So lets assume that you get a 167... Receive substanial $$$ from IU-Bloomington, but nothing from ND.... What do you choose?

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scribelaw
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Re: If you had to choose ND or IU-Bloomington??

Postby scribelaw » Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:12 pm

It's crazy to even start speculating on potential scholarship lineups before you have an LSAT score. With a 170+, you should be setting your sights way higher -- you'd be in solid shape at Northwestern with your WE, and that's a dramatically better option at any price than ND or IUB. Alternatively, if you get 164 or less you no chance at either with your GPA, and you should be aiming lower.

Just study for the test, see how you do, and then come back to us.

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RickyRoe
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Re: If you had to choose ND or IU-Bloomington??

Postby RickyRoe » Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:12 pm

bobo11111111111 wrote:
RickyRoe wrote:ND cares more about GPA than IU. 164 might get you into IU, but ND would take close to 170. I would go to ND over IU, but that might be because I am an Irish fan.



I have noticed that ND cares more about gpa than IU-Bloomington. But, it seemed at least according to lsn's that a 167 would give an applicant a reasonable shot with a gpa as low as mine.

Anyways other than being an ND fan, why else would you choose ND??? ND is a little pricy.


Are you an Indiana resident? If you are you probably should have mentioned that because I was assuming you would be paying out of state tuition (IN is very tough to gain residency for 2L and 3L). If you arent an Indiana resident the tuition is about the same as at Notre Dame. IU has been giving out more scholarship money recently, but you said to assume no money was offered.

I chose ND because their alumni are known for being very loyal to their school. Both schools will place in Chicago, but ND does that better. Also, Indiana was ranked 36th just one year ago and they are likely to end up below ND in the long run.

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vanwinkle
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Re: If you had to choose ND or IU-Bloomington??

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:14 pm

scribelaw wrote:It's crazy to even start speculating on potential scholarship lineups before you have an LSAT score. With a 170+, you should be setting your sights way higher -- you'd be in solid shape at Northwestern with your WE, and that's a dramatically better option at any price than ND or IUB. Alternatively, if you get 164 or less you no chance at either with your GPA, and you should be aiming lower.

Just study for the test, see how you do, and then come back to us.

+1

bobo11111111111
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Re: If you had to choose ND or IU-Bloomington??

Postby bobo11111111111 » Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:15 pm

RickyRoe wrote:
bobo11111111111 wrote:
RickyRoe wrote:ND cares more about GPA than IU. 164 might get you into IU, but ND would take close to 170. I would go to ND over IU, but that might be because I am an Irish fan.



I have noticed that ND cares more about gpa than IU-Bloomington. But, it seemed at least according to lsn's that a 167 would give an applicant a reasonable shot with a gpa as low as mine.

Anyways other than being an ND fan, why else would you choose ND??? ND is a little pricy.


Are you an Indiana resident? If you are you probably should have mentioned that because I was assuming you would be paying out of state tuition (IN is very tough to gain residency for 2L and 3L). If you arent an Indiana resident the tuition is about the same as at Notre Dame. IU has been giving out more scholarship money recently, but you said to assume no money was offered.

I chose ND because their alumni are known for being very loyal to their school. Both schools will place in Chicago, but ND does that better. Also, Indiana was ranked 36th just one year ago and they are likely to end up below ND in the long run.


Yes, I'm an Indiana resident.

bobo11111111111
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Re: If you had to choose ND or IU-Bloomington??

Postby bobo11111111111 » Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:17 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
scribelaw wrote:It's crazy to even start speculating on potential scholarship lineups before you have an LSAT score. With a 170+, you should be setting your sights way higher -- you'd be in solid shape at Northwestern with your WE, and that's a dramatically better option at any price than ND or IUB. Alternatively, if you get 164 or less you no chance at either with your GPA, and you should be aiming lower.

Just study for the test, see how you do, and then come back to us.

+1


Yes, I understand what you're saying. But, I've also been curious as to why some would choose ND over IU-Bloomington given that they are similiarly ranked.

And, also how much or little would a master's and work expeirence play into my favor.

nocal
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Re: If you had to choose ND or IU-Bloomington??

Postby nocal » Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:54 am

I 167 won't get you ND. With a 3.14 and a 170, the highest ranked schools you are likely to gain admission are WUSTL and ND, and of the two I would take ND. If that happens you should of course try for some others, Northwestern, Cornell, UCLA, USC, GULC, Vanderbilt - but personally I wouldn't consider those "way higher."

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vanwinkle
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Re: If you had to choose ND or IU-Bloomington??

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Apr 10, 2010 11:44 am

bobo11111111111 wrote:Yes, I understand what you're saying. But, I've also been curious as to why some would choose ND over IU-Bloomington given that they are similiarly ranked.

And, also how much or little would a master's and work expeirence play into my favor.

These are good questions in general. However, when you come in and ask "what LSAT do I need to get into these schools?" you're going to get the kind of response you did, which is that "what if I make X" questions are largely pointless wastes of time on here and are treated accordingly. People don't plan to get a certain LSAT score, they try their hardest and get the highest score they can and then evaluate their options from there. No matter what you "plan" you could end up much higher or lower on test day than you expect, and as a result any pre-results discussion is largely unhelpful.

To answer your legitimate general questions:

Rankings are not everything. They are a pretty good overall indicator of school value and prestige, but they're just a starting, not an ending, point for evaluating different schools. The fact that IU-B and ND are ranked together and in that way are "peer schools" makes them worth considering next to each other, but there's things that set them apart.

For example, IU-B used to be ranked lower and just vaulted up in the rankings. Some people question whether the school is actually worthy of this higher ranking or if it'll fall back down where it was. They also question whether the school has the actual prestige, alumni connections, and job placement to go with peer schools at its current ranking.

On the other hand, ND is very well known for its strength of alumni connections and name recognition. It's regarded by some people to be even beyond its rankings in this regard and to have more of a national placement ability than its rankings peers, and thus a much better choice for people than IU-B. However, this has to be balanced against other factors, especially since ND is a rather bluntly religious institution with a distinguishable atmosphere from its peer schools, and one has to consider whether they'd be happier living at ND or IU-B for 3 years more.

Regarding the other question, having both a master's degree and significant work experience can greatly help you to make up for a low GPA. I'm attending a T14 school with a 3.0 GPA, in part because I had five years of WE that distinguished me from other applicants. (I've spoken to the adcomms and was told bluntly the WE was a big part of why they let me in with a low GPA.) However, I also got their median LSAT score (170), and that's something you'll have to keep in mind. Your WE and master's will only help compensate for low GPA, and you're going to need an at/above-median LSAT for any school you apply to in order to be taken seriously there.

This is one reason why people say to just take the LSAT and then ask. Every single LSAT point is going to change what's possible and what's not for you, because with your low GPA and master's/WE, your LSAT score will be a huge focus of your application. The advice changes, sometimes radically, even with a single LSAT point of difference (the difference between 169 and 170, for example, can be enormous). It can also be a huge difference in financial aid; with a high enough LSAT you might even get $$ from schools like IU-B and ND, even with your low GPA. It just really seriously depends on what your score actually is.

You've got a shot at some great schools, as a splitter, but only if you nail the LSAT. So go study hard, do the best you can, and then try to figure out where you want to go and start comparing schools in your range.

CanadianWolf
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Re: If you had to choose ND or IU-Bloomington??

Postby CanadianWolf » Sat Apr 10, 2010 11:54 am

Based on the sparse information shared in your original post, if you score a 167 or higher on the LSAT, then you should consider Northwestern University School of Law provided that you are a cooperative type of individual (since Northwestern encourages teamwork).
If you want to remain in Indiana to practice law, then Indiana University School of Law should be an Indiana resident's first choice.

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vanwinkle
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Re: If you had to choose ND or IU-Bloomington??

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:17 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Based on the sparse information shared in your original post, if you score a 167 or higher on the LSAT, then you should consider Northwestern University School of Law provided that you are a cooperative type of individual (since Northwestern encourages teamwork).
If you want to remain in Indiana to practice law, then Indiana University School of Law should be an Indiana resident's first choice.

167 is not a good baseline for considering Northwestern. NU will almost certainly reject OP with anything less than a 170, and even with a 170+ will likely only WL unless OP applies ED.

This is exactly why speculation about what if you get X LSAT score is ridiculous. It's very hard to say which schools are and aren't in your consideration and how to approach them without an actual LSAT score, and in the meantime the advice given results in arguments that are a pointless waste of time because they correct information that might never be useful in the first place, if you never get a high enough LSAT score for any of this to matter.

CanadianWolf
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Re: If you had to choose ND or IU-Bloomington??

Postby CanadianWolf » Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:22 pm

Although I agree that a 3.14 undegraduate GPA with a 167 or 168 LSAT is likely to be rejected by Northwestern, that is not the original poster's position as a master's degree in economics or finance is a significant consideration for law school admissions as is three years of significant work experience in a Fortune 500 company.

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vanwinkle
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Re: If you had to choose ND or IU-Bloomington??

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:27 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Although I agree that a 3.14 undegraduate GPA with a 167 or 168 LSAT is likely to be rejected by Northwestern, that is not the original poster's position as a master's degree in economics or finance is a significant consideration for law school admissions as is three years of significant work experience in a Fortune 500 company.

I don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying the fact that he worked for a Fortune 500 company makes up for both a low GPA and low LSAT score? Because that's essentially what you're saying. WE can make up for a low GPA, but only if you still have the LSAT score to back it up, and by that I mean median-or-higher. Schools almost never accept people with both numbers below median, unless they're URMs (or legacies or such), no matter how good their softs are.

OP's position is that he has a 3.14 GPA, and a higher degree and WE. That will get rejected by NU 99% of the time with less than a 170 LSAT score, especially if he doesn't ED.

bobo11111111111
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Re: If you had to choose ND or IU-Bloomington??

Postby bobo11111111111 » Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:18 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
bobo11111111111 wrote:Yes, I understand what you're saying. But, I've also been curious as to why some would choose ND over IU-Bloomington given that they are similiarly ranked.

And, also how much or little would a master's and work expeirence play into my favor.

These are good questions in general. However, when you come in and ask "what LSAT do I need to get into these schools?" you're going to get the kind of response you did, which is that "what if I make X" questions are largely pointless wastes of time on here and are treated accordingly. People don't plan to get a certain LSAT score, they try their hardest and get the highest score they can and then evaluate their options from there. No matter what you "plan" you could end up much higher or lower on test day than you expect, and as a result any pre-results discussion is largely unhelpful.

To answer your legitimate general questions:

Rankings are not everything. They are a pretty good overall indicator of school value and prestige, but they're just a starting, not an ending, point for evaluating different schools. The fact that IU-B and ND are ranked together and in that way are "peer schools" makes them worth considering next to each other, but there's things that set them apart.

For example, IU-B used to be ranked lower and just vaulted up in the rankings. Some people question whether the school is actually worthy of this higher ranking or if it'll fall back down where it was. They also question whether the school has the actual prestige, alumni connections, and job placement to go with peer schools at its current ranking.

On the other hand, ND is very well known for its strength of alumni connections and name recognition. It's regarded by some people to be even beyond its rankings in this regard and to have more of a national placement ability than its rankings peers, and thus a much better choice for people than IU-B. However, this has to be balanced against other factors, especially since ND is a rather bluntly religious institution with a distinguishable atmosphere from its peer schools, and one has to consider whether they'd be happier living at ND or IU-B for 3 years more.

Regarding the other question, having both a master's degree and significant work experience can greatly help you to make up for a low GPA. I'm attending a T14 school with a 3.0 GPA, in part because I had five years of WE that distinguished me from other applicants. (I've spoken to the adcomms and was told bluntly the WE was a big part of why they let me in with a low GPA.) However, I also got their median LSAT score (170), and that's something you'll have to keep in mind. Your WE and master's will only help compensate for low GPA, and you're going to need an at/above-median LSAT for any school you apply to in order to be taken seriously there.

This is one reason why people say to just take the LSAT and then ask. Every single LSAT point is going to change what's possible and what's not for you, because with your low GPA and master's/WE, your LSAT score will be a huge focus of your application. The advice changes, sometimes radically, even with a single LSAT point of difference (the difference between 169 and 170, for example, can be enormous). It can also be a huge difference in financial aid; with a high enough LSAT you might even get $$ from schools like IU-B and ND, even with your low GPA. It just really seriously depends on what your score actually is.

You've got a shot at some great schools, as a splitter, but only if you nail the LSAT. So go study hard, do the best you can, and then try to figure out where you want to go and start comparing schools in your range.



That's some very good info. Thanks a lot.

I understand that it's ridiculous to start looking at schools based on hypothetical LSAT scores. But considering that I've already been through the LSAT process; I have an idea of my potential. Given this, knowing that I have a reasonable shot at some pretty good schools might be enough for me to give this another shot.




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