This is Horrifying...

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doinmybest
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Re: This is Horrifying...

Postby doinmybest » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:45 pm

honestabe84 wrote:The AMA regulate the amount of medical schools that can be accredited, so the profession isn't turned into a joke. The ABA would be well advised to consider doing the same.


TITCR

/thread

theantiscalia
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Re: This is Horrifying...

Postby theantiscalia » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:49 pm

I actually like the CPA approach to this. You can go to whatever school you'd like, but before they let you take the test, you have to meet minimum credentials (i.e. 33 credits of accounting). Then, only 15% of people pass the test their first time... keeping idiots out of the profession.

r6_philly
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Re: This is Horrifying...

Postby r6_philly » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:51 pm

doinmybest wrote:
honestabe84 wrote:The AMA regulate the amount of medical schools that can be accredited, so the profession isn't turned into a joke. The ABA would be well advised to consider doing the same.


TITCR

/thread


Although the medical profession and the legal profession are totally different. Society can't have a bunch of bad doctors. They will harm people. Society can have a bunch of bad lawyers, they will just be unemployed. The medical profession has to make sure they only take people who has a chance to be competent doctors, but the legal profession doesn't have to. There are plenty of lawyers who are just glorified notory agents, and you can't expect T14 grads to fill those jobs, like traffic court lawyers...

r6_philly
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Re: This is Horrifying...

Postby r6_philly » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:52 pm

theantiscalia wrote:I actually like the CPA approach to this. You can go to whatever school you'd like, but before they let you take the test, you have to meet minimum credentials (i.e. 33 credits of accounting). Then, only 15% of people pass the test their first time... keeping idiots out of the profession.


They could make the bar exam harder if they wanted to. You don't become a part of profession by going to law school.

sumus romani
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Re: This is Horrifying...

Postby sumus romani » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:52 pm

singingvontrapp wrote:
leraa6587 wrote:Please let us graduate law school before it becomes a total joke. These new schools shouldn't be allowed to award J.D.'s, some lesser degree should be invented... I vote B.L.- Bachelor of Law.


The US is the only country (well Australia, too, in few, few programs) where schools award "doctoral" degrees as the first, entry-level law degree. All the other Western nations award the Bachelor of Law.

By the way, I understand you had a scare from a bad practice score, but there has to be a better way to recover your self-esteem than hating on low-ranked schools?



Why does it matter what the degree is called? No one goes to law school to be called 'doctor'. As I'm sure you know, the LLM and JD switched names around 25 years ago anyways (older lawyers have LLMs and not JDs). Having said that, your are right about bad practice scores and self-esteem :)

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doinmybest
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Re: This is Horrifying...

Postby doinmybest » Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:36 pm

r6_philly wrote:
doinmybest wrote:
honestabe84 wrote:The AMA regulate the amount of medical schools that can be accredited, so the profession isn't turned into a joke. The ABA would be well advised to consider doing the same.


TITCR

/thread


Although the medical profession and the legal profession are totally different. Society can't have a bunch of bad doctors. They will harm people. Society can have a bunch of bad lawyers, they will just be unemployed. The medical profession has to make sure they only take people who has a chance to be competent doctors, but the legal profession doesn't have to. There are plenty of lawyers who are just glorified notory agents, and you can't expect T14 grads to fill those jobs, like traffic court lawyers...



Do you believe that the opening of new schools and the increase in graduates each year has a negative effect on the legal profession as a whole? What about the top jobs? Does it affect anything there, or is it just TTT & TTTT grads that suffer from the increases?

r6_philly
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Re: This is Horrifying...

Postby r6_philly » Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:48 pm

doinmybest wrote:Do you believe that the opening of new schools and the increase in graduates each year has a negative effect on the legal profession as a whole? What about the top jobs? Does it affect anything there, or is it just TTT & TTTT grads that suffer from the increases?


I can't say that I do, but I am probably in the minority on this. An influx of new graduates from new schools will probably not impact the top half of the legal market, as the most highly regarded candidates will not attend those schools. If a percentage of the applicants that can't get into an established school choose to spend 3 years of their lives and large amount of money/debt to get a TTTT law degree, it doesn't really affect the legal employment market. 1. Employers will probably not trust the degree/school 2. They may not have a high bar passage. Now if the top of the class does better than the bottom of class at a T4 school, then that's positive competition, it will raise the quality of the bottom end of the legal profession rather than decrease it. The T3/T4 grads will face more competition for limited jobs, but that's really a bad thing for the grads. Maybe it will lead to a rise/fall cycle in the bottom part of the market/schools, and it will balance itself out.

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hannibalhamlin61
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Re: This is Horrifying...

Postby hannibalhamlin61 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:53 pm

shouldn't everyone have a legal degree, or study law to some extent? To understand the rules, regulations and confines of the country they live in?

r6_philly
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Re: This is Horrifying...

Postby r6_philly » Tue Apr 06, 2010 4:00 pm

hannibalhamlin61 wrote:shouldn't everyone have a legal degree, or study law to some extent? To understand the rules, regulations and confines of the country they live in?


Study yes, certified to be able to sit for the bar no. They should have the right to seek such an education, but I don't think everyone needs to possess it.

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PDaddy
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Re: This is Horrifying...

Postby PDaddy » Tue Apr 06, 2010 4:18 pm

leraa6587 wrote:The lowest 25th percentile of a tier 4 school is a 144 (North Carolina Central). I can't even imagine what opening up the new law schools is going to do to these numbers. I scored that on my first practice test ever but WAIT- here's the catch- I TOOK THE WRONG TEST for 3/4 sections (don't sleep in on practice LSAT days kids).


Please let us graduate law school before it becomes a total joke. These new schools shouldn't be allowed to award J.D.'s, some lesser degree should be invented... I vote B.L.- Bachelor of Law.


Let me preface my comments with one remark: I absolutely agree that we need to stem the trend of opening new schools that add little to the legal landscape. There are some schools that need to close (Texas Southern, Golden Gate, etc), and there are some excellent colleges and universities that could help the industry by opening schools (M.I.T., Brown, Rice, Spelman, Purdue, UCSD, etc). However, consider the following:

1) North Carolina Central isn't a "new" law school.

2) The LSAT doesn not measure one's ability to perform well at the job of being a lawyer, and barely predicts 1L first semester performance with any degree of accuracy. Hence, whether or not you want to accept it, there are some 144's that will wipe up the floor with some Harvard ass, as happens every day.

3) You can get a good legal education from most American law schools. Most schools have developed cultures that are more centered on public service than law and business, meaning that the BigLaw model upon which many T1's operate is not the goal of every school. Imagine that...some schools have as their missions the goal of producing lawyers who want to help others and don't care that much about money. :roll:

4) Have you ever heard of Willie E. Gary? Harvard and every other "top" law school in the country has. And they all wish they could go back in time and admit his ass. :wink:


Try reading these articles:

http://weblaw.usc.edu/why/students/orgs ... ersity.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_E._Gary

NOW...TELL ME AGAIN ABOUT HOW STUDENTS FROM LOWER TIERED SCHOOLS, WITH LOWER LSAT SCORES ARE JUST SETTING THEMSELVES UP FOR FAILURE.

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hannibalhamlin61
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Re: This is Horrifying...

Postby hannibalhamlin61 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 4:42 pm

PDaddy wrote:
leraa6587 wrote:The lowest 25th percentile of a tier 4 school is a 144 (North Carolina Central). I can't even imagine what opening up the new law schools is going to do to these numbers. I scored that on my first practice test ever but WAIT- here's the catch- I TOOK THE WRONG TEST for 3/4 sections (don't sleep in on practice LSAT days kids).


Please let us graduate law school before it becomes a total joke. These new schools shouldn't be allowed to award J.D.'s, some lesser degree should be invented... I vote B.L.- Bachelor of Law.


Let me preface my comments with one remark: I absolutely agree that we need to stem the trend of opening new schools that add little to the legal landscape. There are some schools that need to close (Texas Southern, Golden Gate, etc), and there are some excellent colleges and universities that could help the industry by opening schools (M.I.T., Brown, Rice, Spelman, Purdue, UCSD, etc). However, consider the following:

1) North Carolina Central isn't a "new" law school.

2) The LSAT doesn not measure one's ability to perform well at the job of being a lawyer, and barely predicts 1L first semester performance with any degree of accuracy. Hence, whether or not you want to accept it, there are some 144's that will wipe up the floor with some Harvard ass, as happens every day.

3) You can get a good legal education from most American law schools. Most schools have developed cultures that are more centered on public service than law and business, meaning that the BigLaw model upon which many T1's operate is not the goal of every school. Imagine that...some schools have as their missions the goal of producing lawyers who want to help others and don't care that much about money. :roll:

4) Have you ever heard of Willie E. Gary? Harvard and every other "top" law school in the country has. And they all wish they could go back in time and admit his ass. :wink:


Try reading these articles:

http://weblaw.usc.edu/why/students/orgs ... ersity.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_E._Gary

NOW...TELL ME AGAIN ABOUT HOW STUDENTS FROM LOWER TIERED SCHOOLS, WITH LOWER LSAT SCORES ARE JUST SETTING THEMSELVES UP FOR FAILURE.


I am not a fan of people shitting on lower ranked schools just for the ego boost...If you're not at yale there is always someone above you.


However, I'm not sure this clown should be the poster child for any argument.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RV2hnsqNIR8

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romothesavior
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Re: This is Horrifying...

Postby romothesavior » Tue Apr 06, 2010 4:48 pm

hannibalhamlin61 wrote:shouldn't everyone have a legal degree, or study law to some extent? To understand the rules, regulations and confines of the country they live in?


You should have to spend 150k+ just to understand the laws of the land you live in?

It isn't that hard to live your life within the confines of the law. And for those fuzzy areas or times when you need legal counsel, you hire an attorney.

night06
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Re: This is Horrifying...

Postby night06 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 4:49 pm

At the very least, the ABA should enforce stricter guidelines for the reporting of employment data. It would cut down on the schools' ability to trick students into taking on massive debt for terrible job prospects (although I'm sure a large number of students would still find a way to only believe what they want to believe).

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hannibalhamlin61
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Re: This is Horrifying...

Postby hannibalhamlin61 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 4:57 pm

romothesavior wrote:
hannibalhamlin61 wrote:shouldn't everyone have a legal degree, or study law to some extent? To understand the rules, regulations and confines of the country they live in?


You should have to spend 150k+ just to understand the laws of the land you live in?

It isn't that hard to live your life within the confines of the law. And for those fuzzy areas or times when you need legal counsel, you hire an attorney.


I didn't say anything about financing the pursuit of this education, or how much it should cost, just that I understand why people are drawn to it and how essential it is to understand the law. I also don't see the point in shitting on schools beneath your own...

Are you angry with the people willing to pay the price to attend these lowly schools? or the schools themselves?

honestabe84
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Re: This is Horrifying...

Postby honestabe84 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:00 pm

night06 wrote:At the very least, the ABA should enforce stricter guidelines for the reporting of employment data. It would cut down on the schools' ability to trick students into taking on massive debt for terrible job prospects (although I'm sure a large number of students would still find a way to only believe what they want to believe).


This pisses me off more than anything. I know someone is going to say "well law applicants shouldn't be so stupid to believe those statistics," but that's not the point. Some law schools are intentionally trying to mislead applicants when they know very well that their average starting salaries are not six figures. Why would you even report employment statistics when only 30% of the sample responded? That is highly unethical IMO.

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romothesavior
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Re: This is Horrifying...

Postby romothesavior » Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:03 pm

hannibalhamlin61 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
hannibalhamlin61 wrote:shouldn't everyone have a legal degree, or study law to some extent? To understand the rules, regulations and confines of the country they live in?


You should have to spend 150k+ just to understand the laws of the land you live in?

It isn't that hard to live your life within the confines of the law. And for those fuzzy areas or times when you need legal counsel, you hire an attorney.


I didn't say anything about financing the pursuit of this education, or how much it should cost, just that I understand why people are drawn to it and how essential it is to understand the law. I also don't see the point in shitting on schools beneath your own...

Are you angry with the people willing to pay the price to attend these lowly schools? or the schools themselves?


Not angry, but certainly discouraged. As the poster above me noted, they often pay these huge sums of money because they were misled into believing they were getting something of value (thanks to false employment statistics). I'm not saying all the blame goes on the schools; certainly people should do their homework before taking on massive debt. But to say that the schools aren't morally blameworthy (and the ABA for letting it happen) is really absurd to me.

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hannibalhamlin61
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Re: This is Horrifying...

Postby hannibalhamlin61 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:08 pm

romothesavior wrote:
hannibalhamlin61 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
hannibalhamlin61 wrote:shouldn't everyone have a legal degree, or study law to some extent? To understand the rules, regulations and confines of the country they live in?


You should have to spend 150k+ just to understand the laws of the land you live in?

It isn't that hard to live your life within the confines of the law. And for those fuzzy areas or times when you need legal counsel, you hire an attorney.


I didn't say anything about financing the pursuit of this education, or how much it should cost, just that I understand why people are drawn to it and how essential it is to understand the law. I also don't see the point in shitting on schools beneath your own...

Are you angry with the people willing to pay the price to attend these lowly schools? or the schools themselves?


Not angry, but certainly discouraged. As the poster above me noted, they often pay these huge sums of money because they were misled into believing they were getting something of value (thanks to false employment statistics). I'm not saying all the blame goes on the schools; certainly people should do their homework before taking on massive debt. But to say that the schools aren't morally blameworthy (and the ABA for letting it happen) is really absurd to me.


You should actually be encouraged by the prices they are charging - If they only cost $1,200 a year, everyone and their 45 cousins would be going to law school and it would mean even less than it already does.

eldizknee
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Re: This is Horrifying...

Postby eldizknee » Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:33 pm

.
Last edited by eldizknee on Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PDaddy
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Re: This is Horrifying...

Postby PDaddy » Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:36 pm

hannibalhamlin61 wrote:
PDaddy wrote:
leraa6587 wrote:The lowest 25th percentile of a tier 4 school is a 144 (North Carolina Central). I can't even imagine what opening up the new law schools is going to do to these numbers. I scored that on my first practice test ever but WAIT- here's the catch- I TOOK THE WRONG TEST for 3/4 sections (don't sleep in on practice LSAT days kids).


Please let us graduate law school before it becomes a total joke. These new schools shouldn't be allowed to award J.D.'s, some lesser degree should be invented... I vote B.L.- Bachelor of Law.


Let me preface my comments with one remark: I absolutely agree that we need to stem the trend of opening new schools that add little to the legal landscape. There are some schools that need to close (Texas Southern, Golden Gate, etc), and there are some excellent colleges and universities that could help the industry by opening schools (M.I.T., Brown, Rice, Spelman, Purdue, UCSD, etc). However, consider the following:

1) North Carolina Central isn't a "new" law school.

2) The LSAT doesn not measure one's ability to perform well at the job of being a lawyer, and barely predicts 1L first semester performance with any degree of accuracy. Hence, whether or not you want to accept it, there are some 144's that will wipe up the floor with some Harvard ass, as happens every day.

3) You can get a good legal education from most American law schools. Most schools have developed cultures that are more centered on public service than law and business, meaning that the BigLaw model upon which many T1's operate is not the goal of every school. Imagine that...some schools have as their missions the goal of producing lawyers who want to help others and don't care that much about money. :roll:

4) Have you ever heard of Willie E. Gary? Harvard and every other "top" law school in the country has. And they all wish they could go back in time and admit his ass. :wink:


Try reading these articles:

http://weblaw.usc.edu/why/students/orgs ... ersity.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_E._Gary

NOW...TELL ME AGAIN ABOUT HOW STUDENTS FROM LOWER TIERED SCHOOLS, WITH LOWER LSAT SCORES ARE JUST SETTING THEMSELVES UP FOR FAILURE.


I am not a fan of people shitting on lower ranked schools just for the ego boost...If you're not at yale there is always someone above you.

However, I'm not sure this clown should be the poster child for any argument.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RV2hnsqNIR8


Accused! What's your point? And, regardless of whether you believe in his guilt or innocence, he is still an extraordinary legal talent that wound up at a lower tiered law school. Any man can be wrongly accused of something...even you. You have no right to be judge and jury. Bill Clinton was accused of many things and people still love him. Marv Albert was accused of a horrific rape and is now back on television broadcasting NBA games. What happened to "innocent until proven guilty"? It is inappropriate of you to to post the accusation within the context of this debate, unless you are arguing that T4 schools produce rapists. :roll: And you call him a clown?

honestabe84
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Re: This is Horrifying...

Postby honestabe84 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:38 pm

eldizknee wrote:
PDaddy wrote: 4) Have you ever heard of Willie E. Gary? Harvard and every other "top" law school in the country has. And they all wish they could go back in time and admit his ass. :wink:


I'm no math expert, but I'm pretty sure one person isn't a representative sample. Maybe the guy who started the thread about econ and stats was on to something?


Here's what it comes down to - Those that graduate from top law schools are probably the best lawyers, but at the same time, there are many VERY successful lawyers that went to lower ranked schools. While it is very difficult for graduates from lower ranked schools, TLS overestimate how bad their prospects actually are. TLS would have you believe that 99% of lawyers outside of the top 14 can count on being destitute losers for the rest of their life.
Last edited by honestabe84 on Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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D. H2Oman
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Re: This is Horrifying...

Postby D. H2Oman » Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:39 pm

PDaddy, you's a clown bro.

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PDaddy
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Re: This is Horrifying...

Postby PDaddy » Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:40 pm

honestabe84 wrote:
night06 wrote:At the very least, the ABA should enforce stricter guidelines for the reporting of employment data. It would cut down on the schools' ability to trick students into taking on massive debt for terrible job prospects (although I'm sure a large number of students would still find a way to only believe what they want to believe).


This pisses me off more than anything. I know someone is going to say "well law applicants shouldn't be so stupid to believe those statistics," but that's not the point. Some law schools are intentionally trying to mislead applicants when they know very well that their average starting salaries are not six figures. Why would you even report employment statistics when only 30% of the sample responded? That is highly unethical IMO.


This is true. Schools exhibit behaviors they supposedly deplore in their applicants and students. How would they like it if we "fudged" our numbers or lied about our accomplishments? Well, many of us do, but the point is, it shouldn't happen. Schools punish students for lying. Where's the punishment for the schools?

honestabe84
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Re: This is Horrifying...

Postby honestabe84 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:41 pm

PDaddy wrote:
honestabe84 wrote:
night06 wrote:At the very least, the ABA should enforce stricter guidelines for the reporting of employment data. It would cut down on the schools' ability to trick students into taking on massive debt for terrible job prospects (although I'm sure a large number of students would still find a way to only believe what they want to believe).


This pisses me off more than anything. I know someone is going to say "well law applicants shouldn't be so stupid to believe those statistics," but that's not the point. Some law schools are intentionally trying to mislead applicants when they know very well that their average starting salaries are not six figures. Why would you even report employment statistics when only 30% of the sample responded? That is highly unethical IMO.


This is true. Schools exhibit behaviors they supposedly deplore in their applicants and students. How would they like it if we "fudged" our numbers or lied about our accomplishments? Well, many of us do, but the point is, it shouldn't happen. Schools punish students for lying. Where's the punishment for the schools?


Exactly. What if I decided to only use 30% of my college credit for my GPA? I'd have a 4.0.

eldizknee
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Re: This is Horrifying...

Postby eldizknee » Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:44 pm

.
Last edited by eldizknee on Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Clint Eastwood
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Re: This is Horrifying...

Postby Clint Eastwood » Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:45 pm

D. H2Oman wrote:PDaddy, you's a clown bro.


Waterman is as wise as he is frail.




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