Wait another year or bite the bullet and try a transfer?

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rando
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Re: Wait another year or bite the bullet and try a transfer?

Postby rando » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:23 pm

dhg5004 wrote:
or it could do the polar opposite. The LSAT is trainable - as is the ability to succeed in law school.


Sure. Right along with every other person in law school. Taking the LSAT is different. You are competing against people that may not practice at all; have a full time job; are still in UG full time; just don't care etc. That won't be the case in law school. There are things you can do to get a leg up on the competition, but it is nothing like the leg up you can get by intensive studying for the LSAT.

you're right. spending 2 years of your life taking a test makes a ton of sense. (*sarcasm*)


Spending the next 6 months studying to improve your LSAT is an enormously beneficial investment. Improving your score by a marginal amount will greatly expand your opportunities.

i have spoken to numerous lawyers who have been in the industry for years...as well as recent law grads...and current law students. every single one of them would agree with my stance on transferring. Everyone on this forum seems to be obsessed with getting into "T14" schools and if one doesn't gain acceptance then they mind as well trash the whole law school idea.


Then you are being misinformed. Please refer to the "lying in law school" thread because I think you are full of shit. It has nothing to do with getting into T14. If your current options are going to a T4 and getting 5 points higher will get you into a T1/2, that is beneficial. If you are currently looking at a lower end T1 and 5 points will get you into T20 or $$ at your lower T1, that is beneficial. Or cracking the T14 would be a great benefit as well.

USD is a good school with good career opportunities. Waiting an entire year with the hopes of increasing your LSAT a few points is utter nonsense. I don't see why everyone seems to be such a proponent of the idea. And rando what makes you so credible in regard to this topic?


I never said it wasn't. But going to USD will put you in line behind USC, UCLA, Stanford, and Boalt. Your idea of utter nonsense is increasing your LSAT but your wonderful idea is competing against schools that dominate USD.

I know two people who followed the exact route you are proposing...one went up 2 points, the other went down 1 point on the actual LSAT. Will that happen to you farang? Maybe, maybe not. But I don't see how waiting a year while crossing your fingers with the hopes of a 5 point raise will do you any good.


Congratulations. What is your point? What do you lose? Nothing. And during that year you can mature, gain life experiences, build up your softs, and study for the LSAT. Or god forbid, make some money to pay for your law school education which is costing you a fortune because you are too anxious to wait.

And to tell me I don't have 'any idea what I'm talking about' but to use 'not to be rude' as a precursor doesn't just erase the insulting remark. I'm guessing you work on the board of admissions at a T14 law school or something? Judging by your seemingly abundant knowledge on the topic...


I used that as a precursor because it can be interpreted in more than one way. One of them being rude, an offhand remark meant to belittle. The other is meant as constructive feedback. Because, whether you like it or not, sometimes people need to be told that they don't know what they are talking about.
This is not meant to be constructive, but just because stupid people piss me off. You are an idiot.

You don't need to work on the board of admissions at a T14 school to understand how this works. I have abundantly more knowledge than you because I have been through all of this. I have a number of friends that transferred and I know people that transferred into my school. I also declined going through the transfer process myself and I spent an enormous amount of time talking to professors and administrators about the decision.

In the end, all the people advocating not to wait, are showing a huge lack of maturity. The fact you are just so excited you can't wait or don't want to study for the LSAT again is a terrible reason to go to law school. dhg and others are coming across as petulant children who can't wait for christmas. Hate to break it to you, but law school is no christmas present.

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dhg5004
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Re: Wait another year or bite the bullet and try a transfer?

Postby dhg5004 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:18 pm

80% of that post was not directed toward you...it was to the person who started the thread. so you just wasted a ton of time dissecting every word i wrote.

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bceagles182
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Re: Wait another year or bite the bullet and try a transfer?

Postby bceagles182 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:21 pm

traehekat wrote:Just make sure if you end up at USD or Santa Clara that you will be happy with receiving your degree from there. Nothing wrong with wanting to transfer, but if you can't you have to make sure you will still be satisfied continuing your education at your current institution.


this

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akili
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Re: Wait another year or bite the bullet and try a transfer?

Postby akili » Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:21 pm

I didn't get in to my top choice school and my LSAT score was lower than my initial diagnostic. I'm about 90% sure I am going to take a year off and retake in October. I got in to a great school that I would be very happy with, but if I can get even 3 points higher I would get great scholarship money and a shot at some other great schools.

For me, it's worth it.

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PopCopyManager
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Re: Wait another year or bite the bullet and try a transfer?

Postby PopCopyManager » Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:27 pm

I was in almost the same situation (3.79/158), and retook and got a 171 with very little studying. I'm convinced that having a relaxed mindset is essential to getting a good score.

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MrKappus
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Re: Wait another year or bite the bullet and try a transfer?

Postby MrKappus » Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:28 pm

rayiner wrote:The LSAT is not only trainable, but retakes are cheap and low risk.


One year of your life is not "cheap," not by a long shot. Top of 10-15% isn't that hard to do, as long as you're willing to limit how fun/exciting your life is.

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dhg5004
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Re: Wait another year or bite the bullet and try a transfer?

Postby dhg5004 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:29 pm

i have a full time job so i don't have time for a proper rebuttal...

but instigating a correlation between maturity level and deciding not to wait another year makes zero sense.

'god forbid make some money' - great example of making an assumption for the sake of argument. I AM making money. I have a great job. I don't want to wait because I already waited a year between undergrad and law school. I rather begin my future now. It's a MATURE decision.

Creating an analogy between admittance to law school and christmas made me laugh. And here all this time I thought law school was just like christmas morning!

I don't believe I was misinformed...and to be honest...would you be formulating your thoughts and opinions by what some 'rando' said on a law school forum? Or professionals already working in the industry? I think you're a smart enough individual to adhere to the latter.

I appreciate your input, I do. But to insult someone by using inappropriate words/insults is a shining example of immaturity.

rando
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Re: Wait another year or bite the bullet and try a transfer?

Postby rando » Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:01 pm

dhg5004 wrote:i have a full time job so i don't have time for a proper rebuttal...

but instigating a correlation between maturity level and deciding not to wait another year makes zero sense.

'god forbid make some money' - great example of making an assumption for the sake of argument. I AM making money. I have a great job. I don't want to wait because I already waited a year between undergrad and law school. I rather begin my future now. It's a MATURE decision.

Creating an analogy between admittance to law school and christmas made me laugh. And here all this time I thought law school was just like christmas morning!

I don't believe I was misinformed...and to be honest...would you be formulating your thoughts and opinions by what some 'rando' said on a law school forum? Or professionals already working in the industry? I think you're a smart enough individual to adhere to the latter.

I appreciate your input, I do. But to insult someone by using inappropriate words/insults is a shining example of immaturity.


Of course you don't think you were misinformed. When it comes time to transfer (if that is your position) have fun with that.
The funny thing is, you are obviously biased. You are advocating for a position that you have already decided to take. I don't care one way or the other. But I have seen an enormous amount of heartache and disappointment from people that can't make the cut in LS, are paying too much to attend, and possibly could have had better opportunities if they had the maturity to wait.

And yes, you are acting immature. From your previous posts you insinuate that you are just sick of waiting because you graduated last May. (might have been someone else, I didn't look) And you clearly do not have a firm grasp on opportunity cost. Going to Law school and giving up your "great" job is an enormous cost ITE. And it is foolish given the things that you have alluded to in your posts.

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Ford Prefect
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Re: Wait another year or bite the bullet and try a transfer?

Postby Ford Prefect » Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:19 pm

I would love to take a year and retest. My score was about 3 points lower than I wanted, but I can't change my undergrad scores. If I was eight years younger I'd definitely take another year, but at this point it just doesn't make much sense to me. Depending on where I end up, I'll be looking to transfer after 1L. Not the optimal situation but it is what it is.

If you're just finishing undergrad (and are early- to mid-20's) and aren't happy with your score, take the year. Take the test again. If you're afraid you'll lose your desire to go to law school in that year, maybe law school wasn't for you regardless.

erniesto
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Re: Wait another year or bite the bullet and try a transfer?

Postby erniesto » Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:27 pm

Overall I grade this topic as a B. Meaning median. Most of the argumentation is too personal and just plain sloppy. Get used to that in law school, its what your LSAT is telling you you'll achieve. Which means you won't transfer.

If you had say, a 2.9 GPA and a 159 LSAT it would be a different story. However, you're at least capable of breaking into the 90th LSAT percentile, which would mean big things for you and your big fat gpa. RETAKE YOU FOOL. Also, I suspect your first choices were lame (traditional definition) schools which you were about to foolishly waste 180k in debt on.

yo!
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Re: Wait another year or bite the bullet and try a transfer?

Postby yo! » Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:32 pm

firebreathingliberal wrote:Unless you want to practice in San Diego then wait a year. You can spend the whole summer studying, take the Sept LSAT (providing you kill it) and end up looking at a whole other level of programs than where you are now. You get a 165 then Temple will be begging for you to attend (this might be an exaggeration). Plus you can get some sweet job to boost your softs. Build some houses for Habitat for Humanity or something, go rebuild New Orleans, or open a Center for Kids Who Can't Read Good (and who want to do other things good too).


Quoted for the Zoolander reference :)

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clintonius
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Re: Wait another year or bite the bullet and try a transfer?

Postby clintonius » Tue Apr 06, 2010 4:09 pm

MrKappus wrote:One year of your life is not "cheap," not by a long shot.
Neither is $50,000 for that first year of law school. For that matter, neither is being tethered to three times that debt for years after school because you rushed into a school that doesn't have stellar job placement. The potential downsides to taking a year off do not seem to have the potential for as much long-term damage as going to school and failing to transfer. Even the potential benefit of not waiting (which is... not having to wait?) can be partially offset by the benefit of waiting (padding your resume and earning some money).

So I guess let's do this. Best-case transfer scenario is that you'll get in the top whatever percentage of your class, transfer up, and you didn't have to use a year. Keep in mind that you're probably not going to get a scholarship at your transfer school, so you'll have at least two years of law school at sticker, plus whatever you pay that first year. Worst-case scenario for waiting is that you don't improve on the test, make some money, and go to whatever school you would have attended this year.

Best-case retake scenario is that you improve significantly and get into a much, much better school. 3.79 is a seriously respectable GPA. A retake that lands you 5 or 6 extra points will be good enough to put you above both 75th percentiles at UC Davis, which will likely land you a solid scholarship. Tack 10 points onto your score and, well, go look at the numbers on the TLS home page (not taking into account schools that average -- I have no idea if Davis does).

Worst-case transfer scenario is that you don't. USD and Santa Clara are perfectly respectable schools, but you need to make sure you're alright with remaining there all three years.

OP, unless your dad is paying for school, you might try helping him to understand that he could wind up with a lot less to worry about if you wait a year. If he's worried about your being anxious or something now, don't you think he'd be a lot more worried if you wound up with a ton of debt and weren't able to pay it off because you didn't transfer out?

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dp73816
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Re: Wait another year or bite the bullet and try a transfer?

Postby dp73816 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:15 pm

dhg5004 wrote:
+1 - I might be the minority, but I wholeheartedly agree. Waiting a year - in this economy, is simply not as feasible as it once was. I took it twice and had to cancel in the middle once, and ended up getting a 152 as my highest - after PTing in the 160's-170's. I had a lot of health problems that played a factor, but I nonetheless pushed through it and applied to a lot of schools all over the nation. Now, I'm either going to Rutgers (scholarship), UMiami, Notre Dame, or W&L at this point. My whole attitude was "screw waiting, im not putting a year of my life on hold for some test." I think it turned out ok.



I know many stories like this :) And I totally agree with the idea of 'screw waiting' - maybe because I have been out of undergrad since last May and find it difficult to imagine myself waiting 1 more whole year.

congrats on getting into good schools despite a lower LSAT! What is your top choice?



Definitely ND - but Rutgers-C gave up some good cash, and my uncle is partner in a firm in Miami. So we will have to see...

I must state that I was in a pretty unique situation when I decided to pass on waiting a year. During the LSAT process I dealt with tonsillitis (followed by a tonsillectomy), an ACL tear and recovery that ruined my career (I played football for a high 1-A team), and then a bacterial infection that made me lose a lot of weight. I explained this in my addendums as being the main reason for my cancel and first low score, and the added pressure on my last attempt. I even sent along a Kaplan practice test I took the week before (I scored a 168) to prove my point. I think that documentation, along with my medical records, helped a lot at these schools.

But once again, I was a unique situation where I could explain my low scores quite substantially. I think it really comes down to personal choice, and the situation you find yourself in financially. Even if I did not have such background information to bolster my position, I probably would've still not taken a year off; my athletic scholarship ends this year, andI live in an area where there are not many jobs available (all the factories/blue collar jobs have packed up). My parents made quite clear that they were not in a position to help support me, so there was not much of a decision for me to make one way of the other!

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MrKappus
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Re: Wait another year or bite the bullet and try a transfer?

Postby MrKappus » Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:27 pm

erniesto wrote:Overall I grade this topic as a B. Meaning median. Most of the argumentation is too personal and just plain sloppy. Get used to that in law school, its what your LSAT is telling you you'll achieve. Which means you won't transfer.

If you had say, a 2.9 GPA and a 159 LSAT it would be a different story. However, you're at least capable of breaking into the 90th LSAT percentile, which would mean big things for you and your big fat gpa. RETAKE YOU FOOL. Also, I suspect your first choices were lame (traditional definition) schools which you were about to foolishly waste 180k in debt on.


If, as you say, OP's median-level LSAT is predictive of his 1L performance, maybe he isn't better served by gaining a few LSAT points and getting crucified on a better school's curve.

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Re: Wait another year or bite the bullet and try a transfer?

Postby rando » Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:37 pm

MrKappus wrote:
erniesto wrote:Overall I grade this topic as a B. Meaning median. Most of the argumentation is too personal and just plain sloppy. Get used to that in law school, its what your LSAT is telling you you'll achieve. Which means you won't transfer.

If you had say, a 2.9 GPA and a 159 LSAT it would be a different story. However, you're at least capable of breaking into the 90th LSAT percentile, which would mean big things for you and your big fat gpa. RETAKE YOU FOOL. Also, I suspect your first choices were lame (traditional definition) schools which you were about to foolishly waste 180k in debt on.


If, as you say, OP's median-level LSAT is predictive of his 1L performance, maybe he isn't better served by gaining a few LSAT points and getting crucified on a better school's curve.


The lsat argument doesn't have a lot of merit directed at grades. From what I recall it is something like 16% predictive of 1l performance. But it is closer to 50% for law school acceptance.

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MrKappus
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Re: Wait another year or bite the bullet and try a transfer?

Postby MrKappus » Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:45 pm

rando wrote:The lsat argument doesn't have a lot of merit directed at grades. From what I recall it is something like 16% predictive of 1l performance. But it is closer to 50% for law school acceptance.


I agree 100%. Anecdotal though it may be, my 1L grades don't match my LSAT in the slightest. I was trying (and failed, I guess) to be sarcastic about erniesto's inconsistent claims that (1) OP could raise his LSAT, but (2) his current score "meant" he would do median-level work if he attended law school this year.

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rayiner
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Re: Wait another year or bite the bullet and try a transfer?

Postby rayiner » Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:49 pm

MrKappus wrote:
rayiner wrote:The LSAT is not only trainable, but retakes are cheap and low risk.


One year of your life is not "cheap," not by a long shot. Top of 10-15% isn't that hard to do, as long as you're willing to limit how fun/exciting your life is.


It's not like you're dying a year earlier. There are lots of things to do as a young, college-educated adult. I had a blast during my 2-yr gap. You're trading 1 year working as a lawyer for potentially much greater career opportunities or scholarship money.

And as someone who has taken exams, let me tell you that top 10% is not easy. It's not even a matter of how much you work. You're up against people like my friend who got top 2-3% despite studying only two days before each final. I know tons of people who worked all the time and didn't have any fun and pulled median.

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MrKappus
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Re: Wait another year or bite the bullet and try a transfer?

Postby MrKappus » Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:51 pm

rayiner wrote:
MrKappus wrote:
rayiner wrote:The LSAT is not only trainable, but retakes are cheap and low risk.


One year of your life is not "cheap," not by a long shot. Top of 10-15% isn't that hard to do, as long as you're willing to limit how fun/exciting your life is.


It's not like you're dying a year earlier. There are lots of things to do as a young, college-educated adult. I had a blast during my 2-yr gap. You're trading 1 year working as a lawyer for potentially much greater career opportunities or scholarship money.

And as someone who has taken exams, let me tell you that top 10% is not easy. It's not even a matter of how much you work. You're up against people like my friend who got top 2-3% despite studying only two days before each final. I know tons of people who worked all the time and didn't have any fun and pulled median.


You make some good points, but I still think it's better to get on w/ it if you know you want to be an attorney. If you have the smarts and perseverance to raise your LSAT 10 points, you have the smarts and perseverance to be top 10%.

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Re: Wait another year or bite the bullet and try a transfer?

Postby joonhp » Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:41 pm

MrKappus wrote:
rayiner wrote:
MrKappus wrote:
rayiner wrote:The LSAT is not only trainable, but retakes are cheap and low risk.


One year of your life is not "cheap," not by a long shot. Top of 10-15% isn't that hard to do, as long as you're willing to limit how fun/exciting your life is.


It's not like you're dying a year earlier. There are lots of things to do as a young, college-educated adult. I had a blast during my 2-yr gap. You're trading 1 year working as a lawyer for potentially much greater career opportunities or scholarship money.

And as someone who has taken exams, let me tell you that top 10% is not easy. It's not even a matter of how much you work. You're up against people like my friend who got top 2-3% despite studying only two days before each final. I know tons of people who worked all the time and didn't have any fun and pulled median.


You make some good points, but I still think it's better to get on w/ it if you know you want to be an attorney. If you have the smarts and perseverance to raise your LSAT 10 points, you have the smarts and perseverance to be top 10%.


Please don't treat both as the same. Tell that to MOST of the law students cracking median after working their asses off. The LSAT is standardized so it can be cracked. Why do you think there are countless books and prep programs? It's because it is known fact that people raise their scores through hard work. Law school exams are written so there are so many arbitrary factors going into grading.

Read this for inspiration and retake.
posting.php?mode=quote&f=2&p=2801095

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MrKappus
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Re: Wait another year or bite the bullet and try a transfer?

Postby MrKappus » Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:54 pm

joonhp wrote:It's because it is known fact that people raise their scores through hard work.


Through what exactly do people raise their 1L exam scores again?

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rayiner
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Re: Wait another year or bite the bullet and try a transfer?

Postby rayiner » Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:54 am

MrKappus wrote:You make some good points, but I still think it's better to get on w/ it if you know you want to be an attorney. If you have the smarts and perseverance to raise your LSAT 10 points, you have the smarts and perseverance to be top 10%.


Law school exams aren't about smarts and perseverance. There about execution, which can mean a lot of different things depending on the class. The LSAT, meanwhile, depends on very well-defined skills, that are the exact same on *every* exam. You can train those skills, practice ahead of time, and if you do it properly get within a few points of your practice range.

Meanwhile, law school is a total crapshot. Grades are not at all random, but you're competing with a much smaller pool, who are working much harder than for the LSAT, and teachers have wildly different focuses and styles. You'll never open an LSAT and see that half the question types are ones you've never seen before. That's par-for-course with law school exams.

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MrKappus
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Re: Wait another year or bite the bullet and try a transfer?

Postby MrKappus » Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:05 am

rayiner wrote:Law school exams aren't about smarts and perseverance. There about execution, which can mean a lot of different things depending on the class. The LSAT, meanwhile, depends on very well-defined skills, that are the exact same on *every* exam. You can train those skills, practice ahead of time, and if you do it properly get within a few points of your practice range.


Smarts/perseverance allow one to cope w/ any unexpected questions as well as any other law student. The exams are curved so everyone has the same advantages/disadvantages in the exam process. I'm not a 0L...I'm aware of how exams work. I don't go to as good a school as you do, but I'm in the top 10% of my class, and I'm no genius. I think it's better not to delay law school too long, to rely on the same qualities that you imply will lead to LSAT success, and get your professional life underway. You disagree, and that's totally fine. That's what makes the world go 'round.

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Re: Wait another year or bite the bullet and try a transfer?

Postby rando » Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:34 am

MrKappus wrote:
rayiner wrote:Law school exams aren't about smarts and perseverance. There about execution, which can mean a lot of different things depending on the class. The LSAT, meanwhile, depends on very well-defined skills, that are the exact same on *every* exam. You can train those skills, practice ahead of time, and if you do it properly get within a few points of your practice range.


Smarts/perseverance allow one to cope w/ any unexpected questions as well as any other law student. The exams are curved so everyone has the same advantages/disadvantages in the exam process. I'm not a 0L...I'm aware of how exams work. I don't go to as good a school as you do, but I'm in the top 10% of my class, and I'm no genius. I think it's better not to delay law school too long, to rely on the same qualities that you imply will lead to LSAT success, and get your professional life underway. You disagree, and that's totally fine. That's what makes the world go 'round.


Kappus, you seem a lot more rational than some of the others saying "screw it, go to law school" so i'll bite. Given the things mentioned. Why do you say that it is better to get you professional life under way than to take the extra time to get into a better school and/or get more scholarship money?

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creamedcats
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Re: Wait another year or bite the bullet and try a transfer?

Postby creamedcats » Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:19 am

If you only took it once, retake it, absolutely. You owe it to yourself. I retook it and didn't do much better. That sucks. Oh well, I tried. I could do it again - but I draw the line at three. Diminishing returns, etc. There are other things you can do to increase your attractiveness, but not many. LSAT first. Transfer second.

You cannot COUNT on transferring, but there's nothing wrong with trying, just be aware of the downsides. You MUST be willing to graduate from that school if you have no other options, otherwise you violate your own 'wasting a year' argument, which I agree with. A year is a long time, and 1L can be expensive by itself. If you want to retake LSAT/reapply, there are good things you can do for a year, though, and some of them even pay real money. Go paralegal, go volunteer, go join the national guard, whatever.

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Hattori Hanzo
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Re: Wait another year or bite the bullet and try a transfer?

Postby Hattori Hanzo » Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:50 am

Retake. Don't waste a good GPA.




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