Chances at North Carolina

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chris888777
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Chances at North Carolina

Postby chris888777 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:48 am

Hi,

I was on here alot a few years ago but decided to put law school on hold for awhile. The more I think about it, the more i like UNC. If I apply next year UNC is by far and away my top choice. My numbers are between 160-162 and my gpa is between a 3.75-3.85. If I was a Carolina Resident i would feel pretty comfortable with my chances but unfortunately i am not. I currently live overseas and technically am not a resident of any state. Would it be worth it to rent an apt for a year in NC to establish residency then apply or are my numbers strong enough to get me in without that step?

Thanks Alot

SweeneyTodd
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Re: Chances at North Carolina

Postby SweeneyTodd » Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:35 am

Your gpa makes up for your lsat (which is close to median for unc so its not necessarily too low or anything). I'm sure people will advise you to retake the lsat and shoot for a higher score which is probably a good idea (if its an option). Even just a 5 point increase could really put you in a better position. Judging from the residency form to establish residency for UNC you have to have lived here for at least 3 years so getting an apartment for one year doesn't seem to matter much. Having a full time job here as well as paying state taxes and being registered to vote in a nc county also seem important. Also, apply early next fall and be prepared for what could be a long wait for a decision. Lastly, make sure you make your essays for UNC the best you've ever written. They require several and it seems a lot of weight is on them. UNC seems to really focus on the whole application and as people tend to say they favor the "holistic" approach (in other words they look beyond numbers) so present yourself very well and play up all of your strengths in your application. They love community/public service and examples of leadership. If UNC is still your top choice next fall make sure you express that in your essays. Good luck!

Edit: I didn't directly answer your question but yes I do think you have a shot with your current numbers IF the rest of your application (outside of your LSAT/GPA) is unique (in a good way), appealing or just great.

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j.wellington
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Re: Chances at North Carolina

Postby j.wellington » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:30 am

Well, UNC is famously the hardest state school to get into when applying out-of-state. What's more, it has some of the strictest requirements for demonstrating in-state residency. I can't remember the details off-hand, but I do not believe moving there for just one year is enough.

Assume that you will not be considered a resident when you apply. You have a great GPA, but you might want to push your LSAT score up a few points to be more competitive. Their admissions process is cryptic, but UNC is also reputed as a school that takes life experience as a serious consideration, especially if it involves a good amount of public service work.

Good luck!

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kalvano
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Re: Chances at North Carolina

Postby kalvano » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:39 am

What do you want to do?

If you want NC Biglaw or something like that, Wake would be a better bet.

If you want public interest, UNC is better for that.

SweeneyTodd
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Re: Chances at North Carolina

Postby SweeneyTodd » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:45 pm

kalvano wrote:What do you want to do?

If you want NC Biglaw or something like that, Wake would be a better bet.

If you want public interest, UNC is better for that.


Why is that? Because in 2009 Wake placed 34 students in NLJ250 firms and UNC placed 30 (actual numbers not percentages)? Not trying to start an argument as I know the Wake vs. UNC debate gets enough attention on TLS and I didn't even apply to Wake nor am I interested in Biglaw.

I think it's important to ascertain what type of law students are interested in at each school. Based on stats both schools provide for the class of 2008 69.5%of Wake grads entered private practice whereas 63.3% of UNC grads entered. 6.4% of Wake grads entered business/corporate counsel/industry compared to 8.9% of UNC grads. UNC combines public interest & government stats and the stats are 15.8% for UNC and 12% for Wake. Judicial Clerkships: 9.7% UNC, 9.2% for Wake.

Just seems like there tends to be anti-UNC sentiment from some people on TLS planning to attend Wake. I live in NC and there's not really a Biglaw market. I've heard people use the term "Midlaw" which probably describes NC better. I doubt that attending UNC or Wake with an aspiration for Biglaw is going to give you the exact same opportunities as Duke or even a few hours north at Virginia.

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j.wellington
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Re: Chances at North Carolina

Postby j.wellington » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:56 pm

SweeneyTodd wrote:
kalvano wrote:What do you want to do?

If you want NC Biglaw or something like that, Wake would be a better bet.

If you want public interest, UNC is better for that.


Why is that? Because in 2009 Wake placed 34 students in NLJ250 firms and UNC placed 30 (actual numbers not percentages)? Not trying to start an argument as I know the Wake vs. UNC debate gets enough attention on TLS and I didn't even apply to Wake nor am I interested in Biglaw.

I think it's important to ascertain what type of law students are interested in at each school. Based on stats both schools provide for the class of 2008 69.5%of Wake grads entered private practice whereas 63.3% of UNC grads entered. 6.4% of Wake grads entered business/corporate counsel/industry compared to 8.9% of UNC grads. UNC combines public interest & government stats and the stats are 15.8% for UNC and 12% for Wake. Judicial Clerkships: 9.7% UNC, 9.2% for Wake.

Just seems like there tends to be anti-UNC sentiment from some people on TLS planning to attend Wake. I live in NC and there's not really a Biglaw market. I've heard people use the term "Midlaw" which probably describes NC better. I doubt that attending UNC or Wake with an aspiration for Biglaw is going to give you the exact same opportunities as Duke or even a few hours north at Virginia.


Yes. It is hard to overstate the clout that UNC has in North Carolina in any field. It is a true state institution. If you want to work in-state, a degree from UNC is probably just as good as one from any of the elite schools.

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kalvano
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Re: Chances at North Carolina

Postby kalvano » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:32 pm

SweeneyTodd wrote:
kalvano wrote:What do you want to do?

If you want NC Biglaw or something like that, Wake would be a better bet.

If you want public interest, UNC is better for that.


Why is that? Because in 2009 Wake placed 34 students in NLJ250 firms and UNC placed 30 (actual numbers not percentages)? Not trying to start an argument as I know the Wake vs. UNC debate gets enough attention on TLS and I didn't even apply to Wake nor am I interested in Biglaw.

I think it's important to ascertain what type of law students are interested in at each school. Based on stats both schools provide for the class of 2008 69.5%of Wake grads entered private practice whereas 63.3% of UNC grads entered. 6.4% of Wake grads entered business/corporate counsel/industry compared to 8.9% of UNC grads. UNC combines public interest & government stats and the stats are 15.8% for UNC and 12% for Wake. Judicial Clerkships: 9.7% UNC, 9.2% for Wake.

Just seems like there tends to be anti-UNC sentiment from some people on TLS planning to attend Wake. I live in NC and there's not really a Biglaw market. I've heard people use the term "Midlaw" which probably describes NC better. I doubt that attending UNC or Wake with an aspiration for Biglaw is going to give you the exact same opportunities as Duke or even a few hours north at Virginia.



I'm not anti-UNC. Didn't even apply since I am out of state. It just seems to be a general consensus in all the NC threads that Wake does a little better for "Midlaw" and such, and UNC is better for public interest.

The "Go-To" list of schools has Wake at #31 for NLJ250 hiring and UNC at #48, but I think that's based on percentages, and Wake graduates a much smaller class than UNC does.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... oginloop=o

And Wake seems to do significantly better in clerkship placement.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... =1&t=75513


If I'm wrong, I apologize. It seems to me, in doing research on the NC schools, it's really 6 of 1...

I do think, being out of state, OP has a better shot at Wake, probably with a little bit of money. I got $18K a year with a higher LSAT but (much) lower GPA.

SweeneyTodd
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Re: Chances at North Carolina

Postby SweeneyTodd » Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:26 pm

kalvano wrote:
SweeneyTodd wrote:
kalvano wrote:What do you want to do?

If you want NC Biglaw or something like that, Wake would be a better bet.

If you want public interest, UNC is better for that.


Why is that? Because in 2009 Wake placed 34 students in NLJ250 firms and UNC placed 30 (actual numbers not percentages)? Not trying to start an argument as I know the Wake vs. UNC debate gets enough attention on TLS and I didn't even apply to Wake nor am I interested in Biglaw.

I think it's important to ascertain what type of law students are interested in at each school. Based on stats both schools provide for the class of 2008 69.5%of Wake grads entered private practice whereas 63.3% of UNC grads entered. 6.4% of Wake grads entered business/corporate counsel/industry compared to 8.9% of UNC grads. UNC combines public interest & government stats and the stats are 15.8% for UNC and 12% for Wake. Judicial Clerkships: 9.7% UNC, 9.2% for Wake.

Just seems like there tends to be anti-UNC sentiment from some people on TLS planning to attend Wake. I live in NC and there's not really a Biglaw market. I've heard people use the term "Midlaw" which probably describes NC better. I doubt that attending UNC or Wake with an aspiration for Biglaw is going to give you the exact same opportunities as Duke or even a few hours north at Virginia.



I'm not anti-UNC. Didn't even apply since I am out of state. It just seems to be a general consensus in all the NC threads that Wake does a little better for "Midlaw" and such, and UNC is better for public interest.

The "Go-To" list of schools has Wake at #31 for NLJ250 hiring and UNC at #48, but I think that's based on percentages, and Wake graduates a much smaller class than UNC does.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... oginloop=o

And Wake seems to do significantly better in clerkship placement.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=75513


If I'm wrong, I apologize. It seems to me, in doing research on the NC schools, it's really 6 of 1...

I do think, being out of state, OP has a better shot at Wake, probably with a little bit of money. I got $18K a year with a higher LSAT but (much) lower GPA.


I understand your points. But I find those percentages of little value which is why I listed the raw numbers of NLJ250 instead (Wake 34 , UNC 30). That doesn't seem significant to me. However, 10 clerkships to 5 (Wake and UNC respectively) is significant as you stated, but I find these types of stats of minimal value. I personally find it more important to know how many students APPLIED for clerkships and actually received them as opposed a number or percentage of the entire graduating class listing how many actually had/have them. Think about this, if 25 students from Wake applied for clerkships and 10 received them, thats about 40%. However, if 8 students from UNC applied, and 5 received placement, thats 63%.

To your statement that the general consensus on TLS is that Wake does a little better in Midlaw placement and such, I think that can be argued. I think it's important to know the numbers of students planning to enter that type of law, applied, and are actually practicing in that area. Relating to NC its important to see where the biggest law firms in this state are taking the most students.

From the stats both schools provided, doesn't look to me like one is necessarily outshining the other. But then again choosing a law school is all about personal choice. I am interested in government/public interest law and decided UNC would be better for me than Wake. I checked out professors, clinics, and a few journals and some career info so the decision was easy for me.

Like J. Wellington mentioned, the prestige of UNC in this state is one thing that cannot be argued. However, for midlaw NC placement, I think looking at numbers Wake and UNC can produce for in-state placement is of more value than NLJ250 or federal clerkship stats.

No need to apologize, I was just disagreeing with you. Nothing wrong with a little friendly discussion on TLS :lol:. That being said, I know Wake is a good school. I have several friends that attended. Good luck to you wherever you end up this fall.

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kalvano
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Re: Chances at North Carolina

Postby kalvano » Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:40 pm

UNC graduates 75 or so a year more than Wake does, too, which skews percentages.

chris888777
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Re: Chances at North Carolina

Postby chris888777 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:04 pm

Thanks for the advice. I really haven't thought about Wake since the price tag is alittle high. Looking at some of the numbers you guys gave me are intriguing. My career goals are to go into either biglaw or midlaw in NC/Virginia for 10-15 years then go into educational law (pro bono if i can) so i really want to keep my costs down. Do any current students at Wake have thoughts about the school?

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kalvano
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Re: Chances at North Carolina

Postby kalvano » Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:10 pm

chris888777 wrote:Thanks for the advice. I really haven't thought about Wake since the price tag is alittle high. Looking at some of the numbers you guys gave me are intriguing. My career goals are to go into either biglaw or midlaw in NC/Virginia for 10-15 years then go into educational law (pro bono if i can) so i really want to keep my costs down. Do any current students at Wake have thoughts about the school?



viewtopic.php?f=4&t=51759

Like I said, I got $18K a year, and you can check LSN for the current cycle and see what your numbers might get you. I imagine close to the same thing.

I only suggest it because you might find it easier to get in there than UNC, which is very difficult out-of-state.

SweeneyTodd
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Re: Chances at North Carolina

Postby SweeneyTodd » Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:12 am

chris888777 wrote:Thanks for the advice. I really haven't thought about Wake since the price tag is alittle high. Looking at some of the numbers you guys gave me are intriguing. My career goals are to go into either biglaw or midlaw in NC/Virginia for 10-15 years then go into educational law (pro bono if i can) so i really want to keep my costs down. Do any current students at Wake have thoughts about the school?


I've seen a couple of students on TLS that received huge scholarships to Wake and nothing from UNC making Wake less expensive than UNC. Since you want to practice in NC or VA the two are essentially peer schools, so you can't go wrong with either. If you are thinking about cost it really might be a good idea to retake the LSAT -- if its an option -- because raising your score another 5 points could give you more law school options and increase scholarship offers. With your GPA, a score between 167-170+(obviously) could get you into Duke, Virginia (if you ED probably), or Vanderbilt -- which give you better prospects for Biglaw. That being said, I don't know your softs but I saw that a veteran scored less than a 155 on the LSAT but had a GPA close to yours get into Duke ED. If you make it into Biglaw the price tag may not matter if you can count on a huge salary when you begin working (not including any current debt or anything).




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