An Open Letter to Other Law Bloggers Regarding the US News

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tru
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An Open Letter to Other Law Bloggers Regarding the US News

Postby tru » Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:55 am

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Last edited by tru on Fri May 20, 2016 3:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

270910
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Re: An Open Letter to Other Law Bloggers Regarding the US News

Postby 270910 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:44 am

QQ more brian leiter.

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Clint Eastwood
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Re: An Open Letter to Other Law Bloggers Regarding the US News

Postby Clint Eastwood » Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:25 am

Nightrunner wrote:
disco_barred wrote:QQ more brian leiter.

QFGFS


I keep forgetting to use this :(

miamiman
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Re: An Open Letter to Other Law Bloggers Regarding the US News

Postby miamiman » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:40 am

I get it. the rankings aren't wonderful; most agree they're actually misleading to an extent. But, is Leiter suggesting it's reasonable for an entire group of people to ignore them?

Good, bad, or (apparently) evil, USNWR is undeniably a fixture in law and legal education.

Sorry, Brian, I don't think the average Joe Schmo applying to law school is going to cross-reference your Elite Firm Placement/Student Quality/Faculity Quality metrics to "ballpark" the overall value of their law school acceptance vis-a-vis other offers. It's far easier (and, to some extent, fairly accurate) to look at a USNWR guide, see your one offer of admission is ranked #25, see your other offer of aadmission is #30, think about where you want to practice, and make an imperfect, but not entirely ill-advised decision.





EDIT: I still heart your rankings, though, Leiter. Mostly cause you troll UChicago and I'm probably enrolling there in the fall.

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Re: An Open Letter to Other Law Bloggers Regarding the US News

Postby rando » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:49 am

He really should be directing this at law schools and law firms.

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Re: An Open Letter to Other Law Bloggers Regarding the US News

Postby Renzo » Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:41 am

I've made up m mind: Leiter is a sore loser.

He came up with some crappy also-ran rankings, and he's bitter that the USNWR is more influential, so he wants everyone to give the silent treatment to USNWR like a bunch of 8 year olds.

Nevermind the same sore loser mentality that makes him find ways to "prove" how great UChi is by biasing his rankings against NYC firms and schools.

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legalease9
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Re: An Open Letter to Other Law Bloggers Regarding the US News

Postby legalease9 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:43 am

rando wrote:He really should be directing this at law schools and law firms.


+1, especially law firms. As long as Firms follow rankings, students will follow rankings, and law schools will follow rankings, and US news will publish rankings. Everyone's just following the money (and thus the firms that provide it).

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Unemployed
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Re: An Open Letter to Other Law Bloggers Regarding the US News

Postby Unemployed » Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:44 am

Renzo wrote:I've made up m mind: Leiter is a sore loser.

He came up with some crappy also-ran rankings, and he's bitter that the USNWR is more influential, so he wants everyone to give the silent treatment to USNWR like a bunch of 8 year olds.

Nevermind the same sore loser mentality that makes him find ways to "prove" how great UChi is by biasing his rankings against NYC firms and schools.


Huh?

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legalease9
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Re: An Open Letter to Other Law Bloggers Regarding the US News

Postby legalease9 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:48 am

Renzo wrote:I've made up m mind: Leiter is a sore loser.

He came up with some crappy also-ran rankings, and he's bitter that the USNWR is more influential, so he wants everyone to give the silent treatment to USNWR like a bunch of 8 year olds.

Nevermind the same sore loser mentality that makes him find ways to "prove" how great UChi is by biasing his rankings against NYC firms and schools.


lol, he does seem to be displeased about the U Chi ranking in his argument.

http://www.leiterrankings.com/usnews/guide.shtml

"Chicago is at least on a par with Stanford"

"a lot that looks academically indefensible about the results (Chicago behind Columbia, Penn ahead of Berkeley, Duke ahead of Georgetown and Texas)"

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Re: An Open Letter to Other Law Bloggers Regarding the US News

Postby erniesto » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:01 pm

miamiman wrote:I get it. the rankings aren't wonderful; most agree they're actually misleading to an extent. But, is Leiter suggesting it's reasonable for an entire group of people to ignore them?

Good, bad, or (apparently) evil, USNWR is undeniably a fixture in law and legal education.

Sorry, Brian, I don't think the average Joe Schmo applying to law school is going to cross-reference your Elite Firm Placement/Student Quality/Faculity Quality metrics to "ballpark" the overall value of their law school acceptance vis-a-vis other offers. It's far easier (and, to some extent, fairly accurate) to look at a USNWR guide, see your one offer of admission is ranked #25, see your other offer of aadmission is #30, think about where you want to practice, and make an imperfect, but not entirely ill-advised decision.


Excellent example for the banality of evil. Bravo! Your assertion regarding rank is equally foolhardy and ignores many factors, including the fact that USNews ranks from 1 to 100, with rankings outside the Top 20 or 30 largely insignificant. And where do most law students end up? Outside the the top 30.

Leiter's rankings have much more to do with career prospects coming out these quasi trade schools than USNews could ever hope to achieve with its current model.

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Re: An Open Letter to Other Law Bloggers Regarding the US News

Postby Renzo » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:05 pm

erniesto wrote:Leiter's rankings have much more to do with career prospects coming out these quasi trade schools than USNews could ever hope to achieve with its current model.

I'm not here to defend the USNWR rankings, because they're terrible, but what Leiter rankings are you looking at? I've never seen him concerned with anything except where the best students from the best schools end up (i.e. academic placement, V20 placement, etc.)

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Re: An Open Letter to Other Law Bloggers Regarding the US News

Postby ViP » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:06 pm

Nightrunner wrote:Admitting that Leiter is a Chicago fanboy, first and foremost.

Moving on: Leiter's rankings are always a clear delineation of schools following a single metric. Each is meant to provide a clear picture of certain data points in certain fields. Leiter does not really have a "comprehensive" rankings system - the 'end all be all' USNWR purports itself to be - so to call his rankings "also-ran" is somewhere between "apples to oranges" and "blatantly incorrect."

His overall purpose is to try to slow down the juggernaut that is USNWR, because it is controlling the public paradigm of the quality of law schools. Considering that USNWR uses some pretty inane metrics in their equation, that is probably a public service. Otherwise, people will start believing that Indiana is a great school, despite the fact that they get their asses handed to them on every conceivable outcome-based metric (e.g. NLJ 250 placement, clerkships) by several Big 10 peer schools, including two ranked a dozen spots behind them (namely Ohio State and Wisconsin). Indiana is not a better law school; it is better at gaming rankings. There's a big difference.

I know that some people will just follow USNWR as gospel, and I suppose that is the way it will remain. Ask yourself, though: wtf is spending-per-student? How much does that really have to do with the quality of a legal education and/or the availability of a good job upon graduation? Is it really worth 11.5% of a school's value? Do yield percentages really mean a damn thing about what you learn and where it takes you?


Well done, good sir.

You're exactly right. Leiter never sought to establish a comprehensive ranking system because such a system is precisely what he's advocating against. He's not trying to replace US News with his own rankings in the mainstream, but rather providing insight to the public as to 1) what US News' shortcomings are, and 2) where you can get a great legal education, regardless of rankings.

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ggocat
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Re: An Open Letter to Other Law Bloggers Regarding the US News

Postby ggocat » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:07 pm

IIRC, his rankings also favored Texas when he was a prof there.

erniesto
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Re: An Open Letter to Other Law Bloggers Regarding the US News

Postby erniesto » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:16 pm

Firms and government agencies are interested in high student quality, high faculty quality, etc.

Leiter also produces data and rankings regarding legal employment, including academia, national reach and clerkships.

http://www.leiterrankings.com/new/index.shtml

And outside of these top schools, ranking is largely irrelevant and actually counter productive.

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Re: An Open Letter to Other Law Bloggers Regarding the US News

Postby Renzo » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:22 pm

ggocat wrote:IIRC, his rankings also favored Texas when he was a prof there.

They still do, and they favored UChi before he made the switch. Essentially his agenda is less "my school is the best" and more "NYC/DC/the NE aren't all that."

That's a fine and true position to take. But trying to "prove" that other areas of the country are great by ignoring the fact that the biggest/most prestigious firms, and the companies and banks that employ them, are overwhelmingly clustered on the N. Atlantic seaboard is silly.

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Balthy
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Re: An Open Letter to Other Law Bloggers Regarding the US News

Postby Balthy » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:32 pm

What's up with the rankings timer? Has it really been moved back to 70 days?!?!?!???!?!!?!??!!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! I was performing anticipatory rituals already, now what will i do :?:

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools

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Re: An Open Letter to Other Law Bloggers Regarding the US News

Postby lawschooliseasy » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:38 pm

superdingle2000 wrote:What's up with the rankings timer? Has it really been moved back to 70 days?!?!?!???!?!!?!??!!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! I was performing anticipatory rituals already, now what will i do :?:

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools


A countdown timer? That's just shamelessly tacky. I feel like I'm watching smut TV, not waiting for the most influential evaluation of law schools in the nation.

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Rand M.
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Re: An Open Letter to Other Law Bloggers Regarding the US News

Postby Rand M. » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:42 pm

TBF, all this talk of the fact that Leiter does not have a comprehensive ranking is a little misguided. His "Educational Quality Ranking" is comprehensive and seeks to try to properly weigh some of the same factors as USNWR. This ranking is highlighted on TLS's rankings pages and can be seen discussed at the following link.

http://www.leiterrankings.com/usnews/20 ... pare.shtml

Also, I'm not really sure that it is quite fair to just call his rankings biased because some schools come out in a better position. If you can find a metric within the stat/ranking that you don't like then that is another thing all together, but simply dismissing them as biased doesn't seem to do much good. W/R/T Chicago if you have ever taken a look at old (like 10? years) USNWR rankings it would probably jump out at you that Chicago used to be a perennial T-3. Then USNWR decided to change the way it calculated expenditures, moving Chicago to T-6. I say all that to say that it's not really all that ridiculous for a school to place differently in a different rankings system. Does he have a vested interest? Sure. Did he in 2000 when he called Chicago #2? Hired in 2008 so this argument is a little harder to make.

Bottom line- I think things are more complicated then simply dismissing his rankings. I have only ever seen very few substantive knocks on his stuff, and for the most part they come from him.

I also think its a bit silly to say that he is simply upset. If you read it he has some substantive points and seems to suggest that looking at the USNWR data is useful, while looking at the fact that Duke is 10 and UVA is 10 as well is not really useful. He seems to gripe with this whole 8 is better than 9 notion more than anything else. And would prefer that people look at reputation scores, inter-quartile ranges, etc. At the end of the day it does seem a bit silly to buy into a magazine's weighting of those different factors, but looking at the factors separately seems altogether appropriate.

/rant (I think)

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Re: An Open Letter to Other Law Bloggers Regarding the US News

Postby tomhobbes » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:44 pm

US News and World Report wrote:u mad??

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Re: An Open Letter to Other Law Bloggers Regarding the US News

Postby Renzo » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:52 pm

Rand M. wrote:rant


I agree with most all of this, and the USNWR rankings are not methodologically superior to Leiter's in any way. But the whole idea of creating ordered lists of schools is pretty silly, so saying that "my ordered list is better than your ordered list" is even sillier.

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Re: An Open Letter to Other Law Bloggers Regarding the US News

Postby Unemployed » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:53 pm

Rand M. wrote:TBF, all this talk of the fact that Leiter does not have a comprehensive ranking is a little misguided. His "Educational Quality Ranking" is comprehensive and seeks to try to properly weigh some of the same factors as USNWR. This ranking is highlighted on TLS's rankings pages and can be seen discussed at the following link.

http://www.leiterrankings.com/usnews/20 ... pare.shtml

Also, I'm not really sure that it is quite fair to just call his rankings biased because some schools come out in a better position. If you can find a metric within the stat/ranking that you don't like then that is another thing all together, but simply dismissing them as biased doesn't seem to do much good. W/R/T Chicago if you have ever taken a look at old (like 10? years) USNWR rankings it would probably jump out at you that Chicago used to be a perennial T-3. Then USNWR decided to change the way it calculated expenditures, moving Chicago to T-6. I say all that to say that it's not really all that ridiculous for a school to place differently in a different rankings system. Does he have a vested interest? Sure. Did he in 2000 when he called Chicago #2? Hired in 2008 so this argument is a little harder to make.

Bottom line- I think things are more complicated then simply dismissing his rankings. I have only ever seen very few substantive knocks on his stuff, and for the most part they come from him.

I also think its a bit silly to say that he is simply upset. If you read it he has some substantive points and seems to suggest that looking at the USNWR data is useful, while looking at the fact that Duke is 10 and UVA is 10 as well is not really useful. He seems to gripe with this whole 8 is better than 9 notion more than anything else. And would prefer that people look at reputation scores, inter-quartile ranges, etc. At the end of the day it does seem a bit silly to buy into a magazine's weighting of those different factors, but looking at the factors separately seems altogether appropriate.

/rant (I think)


Perennial T-3? I think not...

USNews Rankings 1987-1999

http://www.prelawhandbook.com/law_school_rankings__1987_1999

USNews Rankings 2000-present

http://www.prelawhandbook.com/law_school_rankings__2000_present

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Re: An Open Letter to Other Law Bloggers Regarding the US News

Postby miamiman » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:58 pm

erniesto wrote:
miamiman wrote:I get it. the rankings aren't wonderful; most agree they're actually misleading to an extent. But, is Leiter suggesting it's reasonable for an entire group of people to ignore them?

Good, bad, or (apparently) evil, USNWR is undeniably a fixture in law and legal education.

Sorry, Brian, I don't think the average Joe Schmo applying to law school is going to cross-reference your Elite Firm Placement/Student Quality/Faculity Quality metrics to "ballpark" the overall value of their law school acceptance vis-a-vis other offers. It's far easier (and, to some extent, fairly accurate) to look at a USNWR guide, see your one offer of admission is ranked #25, see your other offer of aadmission is #30, think about where you want to practice, and make an imperfect, but not entirely ill-advised decision.


Excellent example for the banality of evil. Bravo! Your assertion regarding rank is equally foolhardy and ignores many factors, including the fact that USNews ranks from 1 to 100, with rankings outside the Top 20 or 30 largely insignificant. And where do most law students end up? Outside the the top 30.

Leiter's rankings have much more to do with career prospects coming out these quasi trade schools than USNews could ever hope to achieve with its current model.


wow, case in point of why i hate TLS more often than not. I made a qualified argument which highlighted implicit limitations to USNWR and you go off on me. you're going to tell me that the rankings difference separating Stetson and UF for a would be florida practiioner are irrelevant? No, i think the rankings actually fairly nicely correlate with job prospects. stop being a douchebag, looking for every opportunity to shit all over someone's post, and open your eyes to reality. USNWR correlates, albeit very imperfectly, with job prospects.

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Rand M.
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Re: An Open Letter to Other Law Bloggers Regarding the US News

Postby Rand M. » Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:03 pm

Unemployed wrote:
Rand M. wrote:TBF, all this talk of the fact that Leiter does not have a comprehensive ranking is a little misguided. His "Educational Quality Ranking" is comprehensive and seeks to try to properly weigh some of the same factors as USNWR. This ranking is highlighted on TLS's rankings pages and can be seen discussed at the following link.

http://www.leiterrankings.com/usnews/20 ... pare.shtml

Also, I'm not really sure that it is quite fair to just call his rankings biased because some schools come out in a better position. If you can find a metric within the stat/ranking that you don't like then that is another thing all together, but simply dismissing them as biased doesn't seem to do much good. W/R/T Chicago if you have ever taken a look at old (like 10? years) USNWR rankings it would probably jump out at you that Chicago used to be a perennial T-3. Then USNWR decided to change the way it calculated expenditures, moving Chicago to T-6. I say all that to say that it's not really all that ridiculous for a school to place differently in a different rankings system. Does he have a vested interest? Sure. Did he in 2000 when he called Chicago #2? Hired in 2008 so this argument is a little harder to make.

Bottom line- I think things are more complicated then simply dismissing his rankings. I have only ever seen very few substantive knocks on his stuff, and for the most part they come from him.

I also think its a bit silly to say that he is simply upset. If you read it he has some substantive points and seems to suggest that looking at the USNWR data is useful, while looking at the fact that Duke is 10 and UVA is 10 as well is not really useful. He seems to gripe with this whole 8 is better than 9 notion more than anything else. And would prefer that people look at reputation scores, inter-quartile ranges, etc. At the end of the day it does seem a bit silly to buy into a magazine's weighting of those different factors, but looking at the factors separately seems altogether appropriate.

/rant (I think)


Perennial T-3? I think not...

USNews Rankings 1987-1999

http://www.prelawhandbook.com/law_school_rankings__1987_1999

USNews Rankings 2000-present

http://www.prelawhandbook.com/law_school_rankings__2000_present



I think this is semantics, but ok. T2-4? I don't really know what you want there, but the rest of the post stands. This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. Often, people use a single bit to invalidate broad swaths of information/argument. Chicago goes up a bit in Leiter's ranking ---> Leiter is crap.

My only point there was it ranked better....formula changed...it ranks worse.

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Re: An Open Letter to Other Law Bloggers Regarding the US News

Postby miamiman » Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:04 pm

Nightrunner wrote:If USNWR correlates with job prospects, why do they not include outcome-based data (e.g. actual graduates achieving actual jobs) in the metric?


my guess? because all law schools (with possible exception to Yale) have something to hide.

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ggocat
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Re: An Open Letter to Other Law Bloggers Regarding the US News

Postby ggocat » Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:07 pm

Nightrunner wrote:If USNWR correlates with job prospects, why do they not include outcome-based data (e.g. actual graduates achieving actual jobs) in the metric?

If schools report accurately, then US News does; 4% is based on employment at graduation and 14% is based on employment at nine months.




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