Showdown: $50,000 at CLS versus $75,000 at NYU

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )

Where should I go to Law Ѕchool?

Poll ended at Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:30 pm

Columbia Law Ѕchool with $50,000
80
48%
NYU School of Law with $75,000
87
52%
 
Total votes: 167

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Unemployed
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Re: Showdown: $50,000 at CLS versus $75,000 at NYU

Postby Unemployed » Fri Apr 02, 2010 8:26 pm

disco_barred wrote:
Sogui wrote:Can we determine from this thread that TLS has deemed CLS to be worth exactly $25,000 more than NYU?


TLS is full of dumb 1Ls. In the real world, the differences between the top schools is so much smaller than people here seem to think... sigh...


Just to clarify, you are also a 1L right? You just happen to be smart. :lol:

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Re: Showdown: $50,000 at CLS versus $75,000 at NYU

Postby acisking » Fri Apr 02, 2010 8:35 pm

Sogui wrote:Can we determine from this thread that TLS has deemed CLS to be worth exactly $25,000 more than NYU?


No. We can determine that you want to go to Columbia. You said its your dream school that is why I (and perhaps others) voted for it. But to say that Columbia is $25000 better than NYU is ridiculous and frankly a little obnoxious.

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Re: Showdown: $50,000 at CLS versus $75,000 at NYU

Postby 270910 » Fri Apr 02, 2010 8:47 pm

Unemployed wrote:
disco_barred wrote:
Sogui wrote:Can we determine from this thread that TLS has deemed CLS to be worth exactly $25,000 more than NYU?


TLS is full of dumb 1Ls. In the real world, the differences between the top schools is so much smaller than people here seem to think... sigh...


Just to clarify, you are also a 1L right? You just happen to be smart. :lol:


lol. I meant 0Ls. But us 1Ls are dumb too. Just a little less dumb. Not that that's saying much ;)

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Re: Showdown: $50,000 at CLS versus $75,000 at NYU

Postby r2b2ct » Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:02 pm

I would take NYU because 25k+ interest is worth saving.

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Re: Showdown: $50,000 at CLS versus $75,000 at NYU

Postby Unemployed » Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:16 pm

disco_barred wrote:
Unemployed wrote:
disco_barred wrote:
Sogui wrote:Can we determine from this thread that TLS has deemed CLS to be worth exactly $25,000 more than NYU?


TLS is full of dumb 1Ls. In the real world, the differences between the top schools is so much smaller than people here seem to think... sigh...


Just to clarify, you are also a 1L right? You just happen to be smart. :lol:


lol. I meant 0Ls. But us 1Ls are dumb too. Just a little less dumb. Not that that's saying much ;)


Hey, at least we've been though a round of job search ITE. :mrgreen:

To be fair, I think the differences were much more pronounced during the boom years, even between Columbia and NYU. It's just that ITE, firms are no longer willing to dig deep anywhere. But perhaps optimistic members of the class of 2013 should take 2005-2007 figures into consideration?

Edit: But honestly, it is kind of shocking to me that the polls are at 50-50.

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Re: Showdown: $50,000 at CLS versus $75,000 at NYU

Postby 270910 » Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:25 pm

Unemployed wrote:But honestly, it is kind of shocking to me that the polls are at 50-50.


Me too. I mean, I guess dreams are worth something...

I find it really interesting as a 1L to re-evaluate people's discussions with respect to law school choices. A lot of things I take for granted - the rough market, the difficulty of predicting performance, the greater than expected portability of T14 degrees, the fact that CCN and even HYS diplomas don't grant the ability to walk on water, the shocking truth that GULC grads get jobs, the fact that for $25,000 I would trade several digits or one appendage, etc. - seem to not factor in at all to discussion here.

It isn't quite the blind leading the blind... but the problem is NOBODY can make a fully informed decision prior to law school because NOBODY knows how well they will do in law school.

In my experience, the saddest cases were the professor-meeting, hornbook-guzzling, clerk/professor aspiring students who went in with their hearts in the right place and herculean effort only to have their dreams crushed on the rocks of the realities of law school and the curve. I carry that information with me everywhere these days... real people who tried so fucking hard and came up empty-handed. It colors my perspective on people making choices, but probably too negatively.

Mostly, I just hate the curve. Necessary evil perhaps, but evil.

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Re: Showdown: $50,000 at CLS versus $75,000 at NYU

Postby AngryAvocado » Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:49 pm

legalnoeagle wrote:
AngryAvocado wrote:
legalnoeagle wrote:I take it personally when people cite irrelevant and/or inherently flawed surveys as dogma when offering an opinion.

So yeah, agree to disagree.


Why must you continue with the personal attacks? Since when is citing statistics taboo if it's the best data we have to go by? Like I said, if you've got better (or more recent) numbers that suggest otherwise, please share them. I'd rather see some numbers that are 3 years old than anecdotes or unsupported opinions. I'd post the numbers from the Vault 5 (Wachtell, Cravath, etc.), but I'm sure you already know it overwhelmingly favors CLS. So what data, then, is good enough?



I'm not attacking you. I'm attacking your data. I'm saying it's flawed. I'm saying I wouldn't base $25000 on it. That's all. There is NO definitive study to prove that, if you achieve the same grades or same class rank, you will have a substantially better shot at landing a Biglaw job if you go to CLS vs. NYU, which is what you implicate every time you post the damn links!

What good is an opinion that's supported by flawed data anyway? I'll take the informed opinion of a hiring partner any day.

And I'm not trolling for NYU, either. I acknowledged that CLS has a slight advantage in biglaw hiring in my first post! I also said that if the OP is worried about lay prestige, then CLS is the obvious choice.


I never said I'd base my decision on that data alone. I said that if CLS were his dream school, I wouldn't give it up for just 25k. Second, my point about differences in biglaw placement hinged upon differences in elite firm placement, not in raw overall placement. Since most people only stay in biglaw for a few years, and since the exit options coming out of top firms are likely to differ markedly from those coming out of your average biglaw firm, I think it's worth looking beyond just raw NLJ250 placement--and especially so when deciding between top schools that are otherwise quite comparable. Is the difference worth 25k? That's quite debatable, but I think the difference is at least worth taking into account when making the decision.

Also, I'd take summer hiring data from 06/07 and current headcounts of lawyers at top firms over the anecdotal opinion of a hiring partner anyday, but to each his own. For what it's worth, the biglaw & in-house lawyers I've spoken seem to consider CLS a tier above NYU, but I'd take that the same way I'd take any other anecdotal evidence: with a grain of salt.

Finally, to the OP, I really believe you can't go wrong regardless. Like I said before, I'd personally say to go with your dream school unless it was a pretty substantial difference in cost. To me, a difference of ~1/3 of a single year's COA isn't worth it, but that's just my opinion. Go with what your gut is telling you, and good luck!

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Re: Showdown: $50,000 at CLS versus $75,000 at NYU

Postby Unemployed » Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:08 pm

disco_barred wrote:
In my experience, the saddest cases were the professor-meeting, hornbook-guzzling, clerk/professor aspiring students who went in with their hearts in the right place and herculean effort only to have their dreams crushed on the rocks of the realities of law school and the curve. I carry that information with me everywhere these days... real people who tried so fucking hard and came up empty-handed.It colors my perspective on people making choices, but probably too negatively.

Mostly, I just hate the curve. Necessary evil perhaps, but evil.


In an ideal world, bad grades wouldn't automatically translate to empty-handedness, but I guess it's true for certain positions. Law school leaves many students heart-broken, but I tend to blame the students for putting too much stock in the sadistic contraption that is the law school grading system. If you buy into the BS, then perhaps you don't have what it takes after all. Plus, I don't have a lot of sympathy for overambitious people without much substance. Plenty of intelligent people get bad grades, but can't you usually tell which ones had no business aspiring for SCOTUS clerkship anyway?

Maybe we shouldn't derail this thread any further....

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Re: Showdown: $50,000 at CLS versus $75,000 at NYU

Postby Sogui » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:16 am

I guess I should point out that Columbia's estimated cost of attended is also $3,500 higher.

Columbia also gave me a $2,500 per year Perkins Loan.

The difference comes out to about an extra $11,000 in GRAD PLUS loans per year for attending Columbia.

So in total it's probably going to cost me a little over $30,000 to attend Columbia over NYU.

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Re: Showdown: $50,000 at CLS versus $75,000 at NYU

Postby JustDude » Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:40 pm

Columbia.


Lay prestige is well worth those 25k.

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Re: Showdown: $50,000 at CLS versus $75,000 at NYU

Postby 270910 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:02 pm

JustDude wrote:Columbia.


Lay prestige is well worth those 25k.


Why is there no 'giving up and killing yourself' emoticon?

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Re: Showdown: $50,000 at CLS versus $75,000 at NYU

Postby JustDude » Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:04 pm

disco_barred wrote:
JustDude wrote:Columbia.


Lay prestige is well worth those 25k.


Why is there no 'giving up and killing yourself' emoticon?


I dont have emotions

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Re: Showdown: $50,000 at CLS versus $75,000 at NYU

Postby Unemployed » Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:06 pm

disco_barred wrote:
JustDude wrote:Columbia.


Lay prestige is well worth those 25k.


Why is there no 'giving up and killing yourself' emoticon?


Haha there's something to be said about the annoyance of constantly having to explain to family and friends that your school is just as good as the other one.... Seriously! You actually turned down the other school!

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Re: Showdown: $50,000 at CLS versus $75,000 at NYU

Postby underachiever » Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:11 pm

At that level of schools and with only 25k at stake I would go to the school you like best.
For me it would be the 75k at NYU b/c then i could do PI with their LARP no problem
Columbia travels better then NYU and does carry better lay prestige

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Re: Showdown: $50,000 at CLS versus $75,000 at NYU

Postby KG_CalGuy » Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:13 pm

go to the school that YOU want to. The employment stats are really negligible and both degrees are highly portable. All of the people that throw up the big law numbers ignore self-selection stats and forget that a decent percentage of people going to NYU go there because they want to do public interest. Schools don't get you jobs, they just open doors for you--you have to do the work to walk through them (and to stay in the room).

That being said, from a purely debt averse mentality, I'd take the 25k extra at NYU.

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Re: Showdown: $50,000 at CLS versus $75,000 at NYU

Postby Renzo » Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:13 pm

Unemployed wrote:
disco_barred wrote:
JustDude wrote:Columbia.


Lay prestige is well worth those 25k.


Why is there no 'giving up and killing yourself' emoticon?


Haha there's something to be said about the annoyance of constantly having to explain to family and friends that your school is just as good as the other one.... Seriously! You actually turned down the other school!

If this were true, I'd be a Georgetown.

I don't know what it is about that school. As far as I can tell, every non-lawyer in the universe thinks its H>Y>G>>whatever local school is nearby.

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Re: Showdown: $50,000 at CLS versus $75,000 at NYU

Postby anli » Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:34 pm

. . .
Last edited by anli on Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Showdown: $50,000 at CLS versus $75,000 at NYU

Postby toaster2 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:37 pm

.
Last edited by toaster2 on Tue May 25, 2010 1:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Showdown: $50,000 at CLS versus $75,000 at NYU

Postby anli » Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:52 pm

. . .
Last edited by anli on Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Showdown: $50,000 at CLS versus $75,000 at NYU

Postby gossipgirl » Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:02 pm

anli wrote:I had top grades first semester and got just about every summer internship I applied for, some of which were extremely competitive nationally. That would not have been true if I were median at Columbia (or Harvard, or Yale).


What does this mean? Why are you comparing being at the top of NYU to median at Columbia?

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Re: Showdown: $50,000 at CLS versus $75,000 at NYU

Postby anli » Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:04 pm

My point is that the school isn't the limiting factor. If you do well at either CLS or NYU, you'll be fine. If you don't do well, you won't. The marginal difference in placement opportunities is negligible compared to your own ability to do well.

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Re: Showdown: $50,000 at CLS versus $75,000 at NYU

Postby soullesswonder » Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:05 pm

anli wrote:Haha, I guess I sounded like a tool saying that. Well, that's been my experience (I usually hang out with my CLS friends, a bunch of whom were friends in UG).

Hoisted on my own picard!


It's petard, not picard.

Image

:D :D :D

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Re: Showdown: $50,000 at CLS versus $75,000 at NYU

Postby Renzo » Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:09 pm

anli wrote:My point is that the school isn't the limiting factor. If you do well at either CLS or NYU, you'll be fine. If you don't do well, you won't. The marginal difference in placement opportunities is negligible compared to your own ability to do well.

I absolutely agree with this. Making contacts, interviewing well, writing ability, etc. will all play a far greater role in determining your future than school name. If you are counting on any school's reputation alone to get you a job, you're probably headed for the breadline (granted, at Yale that would qualify you for loan forgiveness, but never mind that).




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