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 Post subject: Re: National Guard and Law School
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:24 am 
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GrcP8nter wrote:
numbers: 3.62 177

I graduate in this December (3.62 is what I will have, if I applied in spetember it would be more like a 3.47). I live in western NY, plan to practice in western NY, and Cornell seems like the perfect law school for me. However because I would be applying in december I doubt that I will be able to rope in much of a scholarship. I am 22. I have been looking into the national guard, and am wondering if the fellow TLS'ers could offer their opinions on the idea.

If I sign up, the Guard will pay off my college debt (20Kish);
I would enlist for 3 years active duty before returning to reserve;
with enlistment bonuses I would earn around 100k (pre taxes);
and I would be able to apply to cornell in september allowing me to be eligible for the 105k scholarship;
while on reserve status I would make like 15k a year for drilling one weekend a month and 2 weeks a year (while at cornell);
I have also heard about the GI Bill / Montgomery Bill / Yellow Ribbon but am not sure whether they would apply.

I would then be entering law school at 25-26 and come out with no college or law school debt and in fact be up 60k or so.
Should I do it?



What recruiter told you you'd earn 15K/year in the guard? Not even close.

http://www.dfas.mil/militarypay/militarypaytables/2010WebPayTable34.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: National Guard and Law School
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:35 am 
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Sorry I should explain that, when I was looking at the chart it said 4,750 a year or so (weekend drill pay + the two weeks a year), I rounded that up to 5k and then apparently figured out that the three years I would be in law school would be worth 15kish, and then mistakenly remembered that figure as the per year number. My fault.


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 Post subject: Re: National Guard and Law School
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:50 am 
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Posts: 41
Quote:
If you want to be recession-proof, spend 4 years kicking ass as a military officer.


+infinity


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 Post subject: Re: National Guard and Law School
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:36 pm 
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Posts: 610
aristotle1776 wrote:
Quote:
If you want to be recession-proof, spend 4 years kicking ass as a military officer.


+infinity


Please note that I am extremely pro-military, and will hopefull be doing the JAG. Having said that, I would say that being an officer is as recession proof as a bullet-proof vest is bullet proof - you are certainly much better off than the guy next to you whose going in with only a suit and tie, but you aren't immuned. Them paying off your debt is HUGE, but I do think everybody is feeling specks of the shit hitting the fan with the recession, whether they be tiny or cowpie sized.


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 Post subject: Re: National Guard and Law School
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:57 pm 
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scionb4 wrote:
being an officer is as recession proof as a bullet-proof vest is bullet proof - you are certainly much better off than the guy next to you whose going in with only a suit and tie, but you aren't immuned.


Well put.


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 Post subject: Re: National Guard and Law School
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:10 pm 
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Posts: 465
The obvious problem with all of this is that you may have to shoot nice people that you don't know in the face.


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 Post subject: Re: National Guard and Law School
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:52 pm 
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I dont know about the "nice" part.


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 Post subject: Re: National Guard and Law School
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:53 pm 
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lawschooliseasy wrote:
The obvious problem with all of this is that you may have to shoot [strike]nice people[/strike] terrorists that you don't know in the face.


Sooound good?


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 Post subject: Re: National Guard and Law School
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 6:07 pm 
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ihurtmyselftoday wrote:
lawschooliseasy wrote:
The obvious problem with all of this is that you may have to shoot [strike]nice people[/strike] terrorists that you don't know in the face.


Sooound good?


You must be confusing what you do in the Army with what you wish you could do in the Air Force. 8)


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 Post subject: Re: National Guard and Law School
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 6:38 pm 
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Posts: 21
So going back to the previous conversation, I realize that the Montgomery GI Bill is different than the Post 9/11 GI Bill. I also realize that you can not use both the MGIB and the SLRP on one enlistment. Can you use both the SLRP and the post 9/11 GI Bill on one three year enlistment?

from my minimal research, signs point to no


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 Post subject: Re: National Guard and Law School
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 6:58 pm 
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GrcP8nter wrote:
So going back to the previous conversation, I realize that the Montgomery GI Bill is different than the Post 9/11 GI Bill. I also realize that you can not use both the MGIB and the SLRP on one enlistment. Can you use both the SLRP and the post 9/11 GI Bill on one three year enlistment?

from my minimal research, signs point to no


No, SLRP time does not count toward Post 9-11 eligibility. The SLRP is a three year committment. The Post 9-11 eligibility doesn't count time served for student loan repayment as time in service. If your undergrad loans are only 20K, skip the SLRP and get the Post 9-11. 27months in law school x$1000/month in living expenses beats your SLRP right off the bat. That doesn't even count the tuition payments or 1K/year for books. You can get both, but you'd be looking at a six year hitch to pull that off.


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 Post subject: Re: National Guard and Law School
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:07 pm 
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I guess I will just pay off my UG debt with the money made my first year or if I'm lucky signing bonus / Pre-MOS income


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 Post subject: Re: National Guard and Law School
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:49 pm 
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Texan09 wrote:
GrcP8nter wrote:
I'm assuming with a college degree you would enlist as an E4. I spent one year in Afghanistan (where you make way more than normal) and only earned around $35,000 after taxes (cause there are no taxes for combat zones). That's only because I literally had 0 bills. Considering the fact that you will not earn the extra benefits or tax exemption for the entire three years, it is very unlikely you will save 60k over three years. That would only be possible if you spent $0 and spent at least 12 months in a combat zone.


BAH baby! I was taking home over 4K a month while deployed as a PFC :P


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 Post subject: Re: National Guard and Law School
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:10 am 
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duckz wrote:
Texan09 wrote:
GrcP8nter wrote:
I'm assuming with a college degree you would enlist as an E4. I spent one year in Afghanistan (where you make way more than normal) and only earned around $35,000 after taxes (cause there are no taxes for combat zones). That's only because I literally had 0 bills. Considering the fact that you will not earn the extra benefits or tax exemption for the entire three years, it is very unlikely you will save 60k over three years. That would only be possible if you spent $0 and spent at least 12 months in a combat zone.


BAH baby! I was taking home over 4K a month while deployed as a PFC :P



That must mean you were married and/or had dependents. Otherwise, junior enlisted military personnel do not receive BAH (technically, they do get a few dollars a month that is called BAH, but it's nowhere near as much as the regular BAH, which varies by zip code). For those unfamiliar with military acronyms, BAH is Basic Allowance for Housing. It's supposed to cover rent/mortgage payments, and junior enlisted don't get it because they live in the barracks unless they are married and/or have dependents.


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 Post subject: Re: National Guard and Law School
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:29 am 
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Posts: 75
ArmyVet07 wrote:
duckz wrote:
Texan09 wrote:
GrcP8nter wrote:
I'm assuming with a college degree you would enlist as an E4. I spent one year in Afghanistan (where you make way more than normal) and only earned around $35,000 after taxes (cause there are no taxes for combat zones). That's only because I literally had 0 bills. Considering the fact that you will not earn the extra benefits or tax exemption for the entire three years, it is very unlikely you will save 60k over three years. That would only be possible if you spent $0 and spent at least 12 months in a combat zone.


BAH baby! I was taking home over 4K a month while deployed as a PFC :P



That must mean you were married and/or had dependents. Otherwise, junior enlisted military personnel do not receive BAH (technically, they do get a few dollars a month that is called BAH, but it's nowhere near as much as the regular BAH, which varies by zip code). For those unfamiliar with military acronyms, BAH is Basic Allowance for Housing. It's supposed to cover rent/mortgage payments, and junior enlisted don't get it because they live in the barracks unless they are married and/or have dependents.


Not true for Guardsmen/reservists. All reservists (that can prove they pay rent/mortgage) receive real BAH while on deployment. It is based on whatever zip code they live in. It's necessary for reservists to maintain their place of residence for when they return hope since they don't have they benefit of military housing. This is also true for IADT.


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 Post subject: Re: National Guard and Law School
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:11 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:36 pm
Posts: 1055
The benefits are all good and fine but think about the downside also-the risk of ending up dead, or worse, permanently disabled.


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 Post subject: Re: National Guard and Law School
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:39 am 
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Posts: 815
I was active duty myself in the past and I would say the military is good for some people. I liked it, but I couldn't see myself making a career out of it.

I have a friend who was in the Reserves in law school. He got orders to go to Afghanistan a few months ago and had to put law school on hold after first semester of 1L year. Now he is doing predeployment stuff, about to head halfway across the world to dodge bullets (he is an 0311, infantry rifleman in the Marines), and he will be postponing his law school for around 16-18 months. This could happen to you. If you're okay with that, then go ahead and do it. Realize, though, that the military does what it wants when it wants and it isn't about you. Most people will never understand what this feeling is like. Believe me, though, before you sign that dotted line you better be sure. Me and my friend heading to Afghanistan both LOVE the Corps, but man the guy has a young wife who is just getting out of graduate school and they are going to spend the first 14-18 months of their marriage apart, etc.

An acquaintance once told me that the Marine Corps is a young man's dream, and it definitely is. It is awesome when you don't have anyone to worry about and you just want to travel the world and do things that you will be able to tell great stories about.

Oh, and I would be extremely extremely hesitant to recommend anyone join for college money. You do not want to be dodging bullets in Iraq so that Uncle Sam will pay off your education. I spent a while on recruiting duty and I always turned away people who cared only about the college money. Do it because you want to do it regardless of the college money, or else you will hate it. I knew a bunch of people who didn't like it, but I also knew a bunch of people who loved it.

Oh yeah, and keep in mind the National Guard is units made up of a bunch of part time soldiers, so if you DO get orders to Iraq/Afghanistan, you're going to be going into firefights with Joe the postman and Tom the car mechanic by your side. National Guard units are sloppy as hell and most of them don't know what the fuck they're doing. So if you do go into combat, you are going with a bunch of dopes who play soldier once a month. I think I'd pass on that one.


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 Post subject: Re: National Guard and Law School
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:52 am 
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That must mean you were married and/or had dependents. Otherwise, junior enlisted military personnel do not receive BAH (technically, they do get a few dollars a month that is called BAH, but it's nowhere near as much as the regular BAH, which varies by zip code). For those unfamiliar with military acronyms, BAH is Basic Allowance for Housing. It's supposed to cover rent/mortgage payments, and junior enlisted don't get it because they live in the barracks unless they are married and/or have dependents.[/quote]

Not true for Guardsmen/reservists. All reservists (that can prove they pay rent/mortgage) receive real BAH while on deployment. It is based on whatever zip code they live in. It's necessary for reservists to maintain their place of residence for when they return hope since they don't have they benefit of military housing. This is also true for IADT.[/quote]


My experience was based on Active Duty service. I was unaware of the difference with the National Guard and Reserves, but it does makes sense (not that something making sense is a reason for the military to do it).


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 Post subject: Re: National Guard and Law School
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:07 am 
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ArmyVet07 wrote:
My experience was based on Active Duty service. I was unaware of the difference with the National Guard and Reserves, but it does makes sense (not that something making sense is a reason for the military to do it).



QFTMFT!!!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: National Guard and Law School
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:36 am 
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I am an officer currently on active duty with one year obligation left at which time I will have served a total of seven years with two operational deployments to Iraq serving at total of 27 months deployed. While the military provides you with quite a few opportunities and can be a rewarding experience, it is not always the case. If I were in your position I would consider going directly into law school, without the diversion of military. While your $20k would be repaid and you would earn as an officer around $40k starting and by year three you would be hitting more like $65k, you are about breaking even when all things are considered. With your numbers you will get a scholarship, as you mentioned $105k, which will cover a vast majority of your legal education. If you delay law school by three maybe even four years by going active duty, you also have to consider the lost income on the back side. Whereas your peers who are entering law school at the same time you could be will be 3-4 years farther along on the income ladder in the firms you would be going to, 3-4 years sooner to making partner.

If you are looking for the international experience, or a different perspective on life then go for it. But IRR is not all that it cracked up to be. No matter what military contract you sign whether it is for 3 year obligation or not, make sure you read the fine print. ALL miltary contracts are made for 8 years. So if you are active for 3 years, you will be IRR for 5 more. If the IRR calls you up to put you back on active duty, which I have seen many of my friends have happen to them (especially the officers), you are required to go. If you fail to do so, you have violoated U.S. law and a federal warrant for your arrest will be put out, and I am just going to guess that any state bar will not take to kindly to that.

One word of advice that if you do decide to go into the military, attempt to get your Top Secret Clearance before you get out. It will open a lot of doors for you.


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 Post subject: Re: National Guard and Law School
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:50 pm 
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Posts: 41
http://www.couragetoresist.org/x/content/view/658/1/

Interesting article on the IRR - I was medically retired from service and have no personal experience in this area, but find the statistics at the bottom of the page compelling.


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 Post subject: Re: National Guard and Law School
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:45 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:02 am
Posts: 32
the lantern wrote:
I was active duty myself in the past and I would say the military is good for some people. I liked it, but I couldn't see myself making a career out of it.

I have a friend who was in the Reserves in law school. He got orders to go to Afghanistan a few months ago and had to put law school on hold after first semester of 1L year. Now he is doing predeployment stuff, about to head halfway across the world to dodge bullets (he is an 0311, infantry rifleman in the Marines), and he will be postponing his law school for around 16-18 months. This could happen to you. If you're okay with that, then go ahead and do it. Realize, though, that the military does what it wants when it wants and it isn't about you. Most people will never understand what this feeling is like. Believe me, though, before you sign that dotted line you better be sure. Me and my friend heading to Afghanistan both LOVE the Corps, but man the guy has a young wife who is just getting out of graduate school and they are going to spend the first 14-18 months of their marriage apart, etc.

An acquaintance once told me that the Marine Corps is a young man's dream, and it definitely is. It is awesome when you don't have anyone to worry about and you just want to travel the world and do things that you will be able to tell great stories about.

Oh, and I would be extremely extremely hesitant to recommend anyone join for college money. You do not want to be dodging bullets in Iraq so that Uncle Sam will pay off your education. I spent a while on recruiting duty and I always turned away people who cared only about the college money. Do it because you want to do it regardless of the college money, or else you will hate it. I knew a bunch of people who didn't like it, but I also knew a bunch of people who loved it.

Oh yeah, and keep in mind the National Guard is units made up of a bunch of part time soldiers, so if you DO get orders to Iraq/Afghanistan, you're going to be going into firefights with Joe the postman and Tom the car mechanic by your side. National Guard units are sloppy as hell and most of them don't know what the fuck they're doing. So if you do go into combat, you are going with a bunch of dopes who play soldier once a month. I think I'd pass on that one.


That totally depends on your unit and branch of service.

Since transitioning from Active to Reserve, I've been pegged for deployment twice. Once, my entire unit was called up to augment an active unit in Afghanistan. I ran a request through my chain stating my school commitment and the financial consequences if I leave, (I'm completely dependent on fin aid and the GI Bill, meaning I'd have to repay what they had put out) it was approved through my chain and I stayed behind. Earlier this year, Big Navy cut me 12 mo orders to pull some lame customs duty in Kuwait, I called up my platoon commander, who called the company commander and so on. Pretty soon the orders were cancelled.

As long as you keep an open dialog, and your job isn't mission critical (most reserves aren't), and your chain aren't a bunch of lame one-uppers, you should be fine.

And yes, from my experience on active duty, most ANG and reservists are a bunch of soup sandwiches who are waaayyyy to gung-ho for their competency levels. Those who have been there know what I mean. It's like, "Seriously dude, you work in the supply warehouse. Why do you need two K-bars? No, you probably won't need a back up in case you have to throw one. (face palm)"


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 Post subject: Re: National Guard and Law School
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:31 pm 
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rulagi wrote:
the lantern wrote:
And yes, from my experience on active duty, most ANG and reservists are a bunch of soup sandwiches who are waaayyyy to gung-ho for their competency levels. Those who have been there know what I mean. It's like, "Seriously dude, you work in the supply warehouse. Why do you need two K-bars? No, you probably won't need a back up in case you have to throw one. (face palm)"


While true, my MOS may be a weird exception. The active duty finance people never do disbursing CONUS, but reservists in my unit train on it at almost every drill and for our 2 week AT and again at pre-mobilization. We were relieved by an active duty unit and they were losing money all over the place, I actually felt pretty bad for them but such is life.


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