Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

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Borhas
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby Borhas » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:19 pm

erniesto wrote:To uncredit reasonable_man's assertion:

In the legendary and now mythical Law-bubble year of 2005, 30s ranked UC Davis/Hastings (these are the same schools right???!) placed almost 3 times as many graduates (percentage wise) in the NLJ250 as the then third tier ranked University of San Francisco.

Let me break down the numbers for you:

UC Davis/Hastings ~16% in NLJ250
USF ~6% in NLJ250

That's a whole 10% difference. Wow! But wait, lets mess with these numbers a bit more.

UC Davistings (see what I did there?) ~84% didn't place in the NLJ250
USF ~94% didn't place in the NLJ 250

So in summary, as you can see, the difference in placement is extraordinary between ranks 30 and the TTT, especially in a really good legal market.

--ImageRemoved--


I think those #'s are actually from 2009
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2443758843

erniesto
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby erniesto » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:25 pm

No. Those numbers were taken from here: http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf

2009 didn't have beyond the top 40 placers. The overall analysis probably doesn't change in 2009's numbers, as 2008 was still a good year to place.

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quickquestionthanks
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby quickquestionthanks » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:29 pm

erniesto wrote:To uncredit reasonable_man's assertion:

In the legendary and now mythical Law-bubble year of 2005, 30s ranked UC Davis/Hastings (these are the same schools right???!) placed almost 3 times as many graduates (percentage wise) in the NLJ250 as the then third tier ranked University of San Francisco.

Let me break down the numbers for you:

UC Davis/Hastings ~16% in NLJ250
USF ~6% in NLJ250

That's a whole 10% difference. Wow! But wait, lets mess with these numbers a bit more.

UC Davistings (see what I did there?) ~84% didn't place in the NLJ250
USF ~94% didn't place in the NLJ 250

So in summary, as you can see, the difference in placement is extraordinary between ranks 30 and the TTT, especially in a really good legal market.

--ImageRemoved--


Ouch. That must sting a little.

reasonable_man wrote:Ok. You're right..


Apology accepted.

erniesto
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby erniesto » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:37 pm

quickquestionthanks wrote:
erniesto wrote:To uncredit reasonable_man's assertion:

In the legendary and now mythical Law-bubble year of 2005, 30s ranked UC Davis/Hastings (these are the same schools right???!) placed almost 3 times as many graduates (percentage wise) in the NLJ250 as the then third tier ranked University of San Francisco.

Let me break down the numbers for you:

UC Davis/Hastings ~16% in NLJ250
USF ~6% in NLJ250

That's a whole 10% difference. Wow! But wait, lets mess with these numbers a bit more.

UC Davistings (see what I did there?) ~84% didn't place in the NLJ250
USF ~94% didn't place in the NLJ 250

So in summary, as you can see, the difference in placement is extraordinary between ranks 30 and the TTT, especially in a really good legal market.

--ImageRemoved--


Ouch. That must sting a little.

reasonable_man wrote:Ok. You're right..


Apology accepted.


:shock:

Didn't I make it perfectly clear that I am on the side of reason, not naivety here? Isn't that what the sarcmark is for? Get with the program.

If you think 10% is a significant difference then well...

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quickquestionthanks
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby quickquestionthanks » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:44 pm

erniesto wrote:
Didn't I make it perfectly clear that I am on the side of reason, not naivety here? Isn't that what the sarcmark is for? Get with the program.

If you think 10% is a significant difference then well...



Three times?? No, that's not insignificant.

erniesto
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby erniesto » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:47 pm

quickquestionthanks wrote:
erniesto wrote:
Didn't I make it perfectly clear that I am on the side of reason, not naivety here? Isn't that what the sarcmark is for? Get with the program.

If you think 10% is a significant difference then well...



Three times?? No, that's not insignificant.


--ImageRemoved--

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whuts4lunch
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby whuts4lunch » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:48 pm

erniesto wrote:If you think 10% is a significant difference then well...


16% means almost 3x as much proportionally to 6%.

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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby erniesto » Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:01 pm

No. What it means is that out of 100 students, 6 at USF make NLJ250, 16 at UC Davistings make NLJ250. Where as 55 make it from Columbia.

Since you're dead set at micro sizing a macro problem.

It means that out of 10 of your good hearty chums

At USF: .6 makes NLJ250
At Davistings: 1.6 makes NLJ250

That's one whole dude extra.

Now for the key question: How much extra over 10 years do you think you'll have payed at Davistings to have a shot at being that one whole dude extra?
Last edited by erniesto on Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ggocat
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby ggocat » Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:06 pm

quickquestionthanks wrote:
erniesto wrote:
Didn't I make it perfectly clear that I am on the side of reason, not naivety here? Isn't that what the sarcmark is for? Get with the program.

If you think 10% is a significant difference then well...

Three times?? No, that's not insignificant.

Issue isn't whether 10% is significant. Issue is whether the 10% is worth the extra debt and lower likelihood of academic success. As posted earlier: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

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r2b2ct
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby r2b2ct » Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:02 pm

reasonable_man wrote:None.

The rankings are:

T3>T6>T10>T14>T30>Regional Manager for McDonalds>Most other ABA approved Law Schools>Katherine Gibbs Typing Classes>Non-Hamburger College Graduate employee of McDonald's>NYC Area Law schools that aren't T14 or Fordham

In sum.. Outside of the T30... rankings mean nothing. People will argue this point, but those people don't know what they are talking about.
1) I post a few times a week. I think I'm entitled to take a few minutes out of the day to screw around on the internet without having to justify that. I believe Ken (founder of this site), is also a practicing lawyer. Does that make him a loser too?
2) I am a TTT grad.
3) I work at a mid-sized firm in NYC and have done quite well for myself.
4) I'm sorry that people on this site actually believe that there is a big difference between a school ranked 40 and a school ranked 59 or 78 , but there just isn't. Not in the real world anyway.
5) You don't know who I am, but several people, like Rayiner, OperaSoprano, Beta Steve, Paratactical all know my actual identity and I invite you to ask them about whether I speak from experience/know what I'm talking about.
Ok. You're right.. Anyway.. I'm going to go take the 9th of 40 or so deposition days on a 15 million dollar construction defect case in a nice office in midtown with 9 other lawyers (that attended schools ranked as high as the T14, the T50, T100 and TTTT all sitting at the same table and all earning roughly the same money)..

Again, this year's class is right.. the grads from 43 are way better off than 71.. I'll be sure to stop off in one of the partners offices from the T20 at my office and tell them that i'm inferior to them because TLS says so... bla bla bla..

Again, one day you will all see... sadly, its gonna cost you a lot of time and money to understand it..


You probably speak from truth but it doesn't help that you keep wildly changing the strength of your position. I think a lot of people assume that if someone is resorting to straw man arguments he probably has a weak point. But maybe you're just doing it to keep up your jerk persona?

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reasonable_man
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby reasonable_man » Sat Mar 20, 2010 3:34 pm

In a few years, you'll all see...

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j.wellington
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby j.wellington » Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:17 pm

I really have to admire U.S. News & World Report for finding such an ingenious way to profit off people's status insecurities. I should forget this law school crap and dream up an immutable algorithm to rank Manhattan co-ops, then sell subscriptions to neophyte biglaw associates, fresh outta Fordham.

Danteshek
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby Danteshek » Sat Mar 20, 2010 9:00 pm

reasonable_man wrote:None.

The rankings are:

T3>T6>T10>T14>T30>Regional Manager for McDonalds>Most other ABA approved Law Schools>Katherine Gibbs Typing Classes>Non-Hamburger College Graduate employee of McDonald's>NYC Area Law schools that aren't T14 or Fordham

In sum.. Outside of the T30... rankings mean nothing. People will argue this point, but those people don't know what they are talking about.



I know a graduate of my T3 who represented McDonalds in all California litigation. She was required to go to Hamburger University. Now she is a career clerk for a federal judge.

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manbearwig
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby manbearwig » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:35 pm

I really hate to get back into this thread, but I'm getting the feeling that people are arguing different things. Just because people say rank doesn't matter below a certain cutoff (T14, T30, whatever), they're not saying that the only schools worth going to are T14 or that lower T1, T2, and T3 schools are the same as obviously crap schools like Cooley. What they're saying is that at a certain point, region matters more than rank. If you want to practice in a specific region, and you can't get into a school with solid national recognition (and few schools below T30 have this), you should go to the strongest school in your region. This may be a T2 or a T3. There's also the possibility that there's a school that's not directly where you want to practice, but close enough and good enough that it has strong job connections there anyway. So, in that sense, ranks of schools in a specific region matter.

For example, I want to stay in the Philly area. I'm not too concerned about Biglaw, so I don't need to worry about that. My first obvious choice would be UPenn. However, I didn't get in there. The highest ranking school I got into was Boston University at #20. I also got into BC, GW, and W&M, all T30. But, I want to live in Philly. So even though these schools are ranked highly, they will not help me find many jobs in Philly. Therefore, I'm going to Temple. Even though it's #65, it still places better in the Philly. The higher rankings didn't matter.

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thinkbig
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby thinkbig » Sun Mar 21, 2010 2:55 pm

manbearwig wrote:I really hate to get back into this thread, but I'm getting the feeling that people are arguing different things. Just because people say rank doesn't matter below a certain cutoff (T14, T30, whatever), they're not saying that the only schools worth going to are T14 or that lower T1, T2, and T3 schools are the same as obviously crap schools like Cooley. What they're saying is that at a certain point, region matters more than rank. If you want to practice in a specific region, and you can't get into a school with solid national recognition (and few schools below T30 have this), you should go to the strongest school in your region. This may be a T2 or a T3. There's also the possibility that there's a school that's not directly where you want to practice, but close enough and good enough that it has strong job connections there anyway. So, in that sense, ranks of schools in a specific region matter.

For example, I want to stay in the Philly area. I'm not too concerned about Biglaw, so I don't need to worry about that. My first obvious choice would be UPenn. However, I didn't get in there. The highest ranking school I got into was Boston University at #20. I also got into BC, GW, and W&M, all T30. But, I want to live in Philly. So even though these schools are ranked highly, they will not help me find many jobs in Philly. Therefore, I'm going to Temple. Even though it's #65, it still places better in the Philly. The higher rankings didn't matter.


+1 great post. Another example: Going to University of Houston would be a bad idea if you want a job in Chicago. You'd be a lot better off going to Loyola Chicago even though U of H is ranked higher.

GradPath2011
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby GradPath2011 » Sun Mar 21, 2010 2:57 pm

Are you kidding me? T20 and don't have a job as a 2L for the summer. You must be out of your mind.

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thinkbig
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby thinkbig » Sun Mar 21, 2010 2:59 pm

GradPath2011 wrote:Are you kidding me? T20 and don't have a job as a 2L for the summer. You must be out of your mind.


OK, but the point was that rankings become less meaningful the further down you go. Your situation isn't really relevant to that discussion.

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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby GradPath2011 » Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:03 pm

thinkbig wrote:
GradPath2011 wrote:Are you kidding me? T20 and don't have a job as a 2L for the summer. You must be out of your mind.


OK, but the point was that rankings become less meaningful the further down you go. Your situation isn't really relevant to that discussion.


I think what you say is true. After T20 there is a massive drop off. I do not think there is a real difference between, say BC, and Chapman law. I think even at the lower end of T20, unless you want to do some sort of prestigious PI or DOJ, it does not really help for a legit firm job. This is particularly true if you are not a top 30% student.

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thinkbig
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby thinkbig » Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:07 pm

The consensus from law students and lawyers I've talked to about this is that law school is what you make of it. You could go to a T14 and get beaten out for a job by a T2 student. At a certain point, the individual who distinguishes herself will prevail.

I don't mean this as an attack. I'm just saying, it kind of makes sense...

T2 student at the top of her class with impressive extracurriculars > mediocre T14 student who was lucky to get in and does just ok.

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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby GradPath2011 » Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:09 pm

I dont get your point.

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beesknees
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby beesknees » Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:14 pm

.
Last edited by beesknees on Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

GradPath2011
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby GradPath2011 » Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:17 pm

UC DAVIS is not that great of a school. It's the equivalent of any school between 40-70.

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beesknees
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby beesknees » Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:23 pm

.
Last edited by beesknees on Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Borhas
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby Borhas » Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:48 pm

beesknees wrote:
GradPath2011 wrote:UC DAVIS is not that great of a school. It's the equivalent of any school between 40-70.


Precisely. Ranking differences matter less and less the farther you stray from the top schools. Is UC Davis better than a Cali TTT, almost positive the answer is yes, but its not like that T3 would be a completely aweful choice if its offering a copious amount of money while your T30-80 is offering nothing. The game changes outside of the top schools - you have to focus on region you want to work in and $$$ because they're really not too portable and you'll very likely miss the biglaw boat anyway.

This is what reasonable man said at the beginning of the thread, but was skewered for being a practicing attorney visiting a law school discussion board.




The differences between the bottom of the #20-#30 and the rest of T50 are illusory (not saying you are saying they aren't... just pointing out the issue some people have with the whole T30 concept)

I don't think T30 is some magic cut off. The numbers don't support that. There does seem to a pretty big drop off from the 30-35% NLJ 250 employment of the BU, BC, Fordham level. But lots of schools in the T30 don't do much better than the rest of T1 to T2

NLJ 250 placement of some T1
UC Davis: 17%
SMU: 23%
WF: 20%
Wisc: 23%
U of Houst: 18%
BYU: 20%

NLJ 250 placement of some T30
William and Mary: 22%
Iowa: 20%
Minnesota: 19%
W&L: 19%
Emory: 24%
Alabama: <13%
UNC: 15%
U of Wash: 20%

none of those are stellar numbers, so it certainly doesn't appear that going to a T30 school is obviously a better choice than 30-70 or so

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JTX
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby JTX » Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:45 pm

+1 for reasonable_Man... he's the one making sense here. thanks to everyone else for the numbers and percentages and arguing about whether a 35 is better than a 75 is better than a regional T3. you should all go pick your schools based on the highest USWNR ranking possible. that or whether it has a great basketball team. go march madness.




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