Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

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Kobe_Teeth
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby Kobe_Teeth » Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:49 am

I don't know..I'm T2 bound and here conflicting assessments of it every time I turn around (from students, practicing lawyers, and 0L's).
Overall I think extreme naivety and cynicism should almost always be taken with a grain of salt.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby DoubleChecks » Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:51 am

thinkbig wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:I mean I'm not a 0L, I'm only a practicing lawyer, so I don't REALLY know about things like the real world or how law schools are actually viewed by actual practicing lawyers like a brilliant 0L... But from my oh so limited perspective, I can tell you, my above assessment is pretty fucking close to spot on. Sorry to hurt feelings, but that's just the way it is.


How rude.


lol only because im not sure who he is responding to w/ his post haha

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quickquestionthanks
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby quickquestionthanks » Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:58 am

reasonable_man wrote:
quickquestionthanks wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:None.

The rankings are:

T3>T6>T10>T14>T30>Regional Manager for McDonalds>Most other ABA approved Law Schools>Katherine Gibbs Typing Classes>Non-Hamburger College Graduate employee of McDonald's>NYC Area Law schools that aren't T14 or Fordham

In sum.. Outside of the T30... rankings mean nothing. People will argue this point, but those people don't know what they are talking about.



It's comments like this that give this board a bad reputation. :roll:


You can kiss my ass. Or you can try to prove me wrong. Either way, I win. But first, expand upon your vast experience for which you will predicate your brilliant come-back.


Well, for starters, your comment suggests, nay states, that people do not distinguish between a school like, say Seton Hall, ranked 78 and a school like UC Davis, ranked 35. The selectivity and quality of student is clearly quite different as is the portability of their degrees. Same applies to a wide range of comparisons between schools outside the top 30, with which I will not bore you.

The point is, there is life beyond your T30, or T14, or T3 world. And in that world, the quality of your education matters. And the ranking of your school suggests to potential employers and clients what caliber of person they are dealing with.

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PDaddy
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby PDaddy » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:01 am

quickquestionthanks wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:None.

The rankings are:

T3>T6>T10>T14>T30>Regional Manager for McDonalds>Most other ABA approved Law Schools>Katherine Gibbs Typing Classes>Non-Hamburger College Graduate employee of McDonald's>NYC Area Law schools that aren't T14 or Fordham

In sum.. Outside of the T30... rankings mean nothing. People will argue this point, but those people don't know what they are talking about.



It's comments like this that give this board a bad reputation. :roll:


Agreed. I think there's top-20, then #20-50, then everything below. I believe there's something that sets Texas and USC apart from UNC and W & L, but only to the extent that employment prospects are better, and those prospects are better as a result of self-fulfilling prophesy.

At each level, one can argue about 10-15 schools that belong a level above. Does Arizona really provide a lower quality education than William & Mary? Is Suffolk really "below" San Francisco or Rutgers? Nope. Rankings are stupid, and people accept them as gospel when they are anything but.


manbearwig wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:None.

The rankings are:

T3>T6>T10>T14>T30>Regional Manager for McDonalds>Most other ABA approved Law Schools>Katherine Gibbs Typing Classes>Non-Hamburger College Graduate employee of McDonald's>NYC Area Law schools that aren't T14 or Fordham

In sum.. Outside of the T30... rankings mean nothing. People will argue this point, but those people don't know what they are talking about.


I'd take it potentially a step further. Outside of the T14, ranking means very little. There may be more prestige in a T30 school than a T2, but outside of the top, all law schools are regional. Mostly, T30 schools just have a bigger region than a T2 school. Rankings only begin to matter again when you get to Cooley, Florida Coastal, People's College of Law, etc.


I would argue that practically all schools are "regional", except for Harvard and Yale. Even Stanford and Berkeley are ostensibly regional schools, but not because firms don't want their graduates. Like Stanford and Berkeley, UCLA and USC are also "decidedly regional" because of self-selection by students, just as Vanderbilt, Tulane and Howard are decidedly less regional due to self-selection by students.

In a nutshell, the dynamics of recruiting are often influenced by the students who attend certain schools, not because of the calibers of the schools.
Last edited by PDaddy on Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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A'nold
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby A'nold » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:11 am

thinkbig wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:I mean I'm not a 0L, I'm only a practicing lawyer, so I don't REALLY know about things like the real world or how law schools are actually viewed by actual practicing lawyers like a brilliant 0L... But from my oh so limited perspective, I can tell you, my above assessment is pretty fucking close to spot on. Sorry to hurt feelings, but that's just the way it is.


How rude.


In before someone posts a "Full House, Michelle with her arms on her hips" pic.

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Lonagan
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby Lonagan » Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:01 am

bk1 wrote:
PoliticalJunkie wrote:
thinkbig wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:I mean I'm not a 0L, I'm only a practicing lawyer, so I don't REALLY know about things like the real world or how law schools are actually viewed by actual practicing lawyers like a brilliant 0L... But from my oh so limited perspective, I can tell you, my above assessment is pretty fucking close to spot on. Sorry to hurt feelings, but that's just the way it is.


How rude.


Or pathetic, a practicing lawyer spending his free time on a pre-law/law student board.....how sad.


Whether his assessment is right or wrong, he is a practicing lawyer helping out law and pre-law students. He does not have to do this and it would be wise of you to appreciate that fact before launching into a personal attack.


Except, he's a prick.

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PDaddy
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby PDaddy » Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:16 am

PoliticalJunkie wrote:
Or pathetic, a practicing lawyer spending his free time on a pre-law/law student board.....how sad.


I know, right? I know a lawyer who brags about Michigan's ranking. He says that, at one time, it was the #1 school in the country. If you are a practicing lawyer and have nothing better to do than troll student boards, you suck at your job. And if you are a practicing attorney and are still touting the rankings (former or current) of the school you graduated from, you suck big, fat rhino-donkey #$%^#^##& at your job...as a matter of fact, you probably don't even have a job. If your school's ranking is the best thing you have acheived since receiving your JD/LL.M, etc, you might want to look into another profession because you have obviously not accomplished much in your law career.

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PDaddy
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby PDaddy » Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:22 am

quickquestionthanks wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:
quickquestionthanks wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:None.

The rankings are:

T3>T6>T10>T14>T30>Regional Manager for McDonalds>Most other ABA approved Law Schools>Katherine Gibbs Typing Classes>Non-Hamburger College Graduate employee of McDonald's>NYC Area Law schools that aren't T14 or Fordham

In sum.. Outside of the T30... rankings mean nothing. People will argue this point, but those people don't know what they are talking about.



It's comments like this that give this board a bad reputation. :roll:


You can kiss my ass. Or you can try to prove me wrong. Either way, I win. But first, expand upon your vast experience for which you will predicate your brilliant come-back.


Well, for starters, your comment suggests, nay states, that people do not distinguish between a school like, say Seton Hall, ranked 78 and a school like UC Davis, ranked 35. The selectivity and quality of student is clearly quite different as is the portability of their degrees. Same applies to a wide range of comparisons between schools outside the top 30, with which I will not bore you.

The point is, there is life beyond your T30, or T14, or T3 world. And in that world, the quality of your education matters. And the ranking of your school suggests to potential employers and clients what caliber of person they are dealing with.


Lost me with the bolded part: "caliber of 'person'"? I hope that isn't true. I do not plan on letting anyone from HYS intimidate me. I will be just as good, if not better, than their entitled asses. There's something about a guy who works for what he gets and still has something to prove even after he has reached the promised land...or what people think is the promised land. I think hiring partners understand this. Give me the guy with the chip on his shoulder any day of the week.

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Grizz
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby Grizz » Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:22 am

PDaddy wrote:
PoliticalJunkie wrote:
Or pathetic, a practicing lawyer spending his free time on a pre-law/law student board.....how sad.


I know, right? I know a lawyer who brags about Michigan's ranking. He says that, at one time, it was the #1 school in the country. If you are a practicing lawyer and have nothing better to do than troll student boards, you suck at your job. And if you are a practicing attorney and are still touting the rankings (former or current) of the school you graduated from, you suck big, fat rhino-donkey #$%^#^##& at your job...as a matter of fact, you probably don't even have a job. If your school's ranking is the best thing you have acheived since receiving your JD/LL.M, etc, you might want to look into another profession because you have obviously not accomplished much in your law career.


I mean he's not working every hour of the week obviously, and maybe a few minutes a day is enough for his TLS e-crack fix.

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Grizz
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby Grizz » Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:24 am

PDaddy wrote:Lost me with the bolded part: "caliber of 'person'"? I hope that isn't true. I do not plan on letting anyone from HYS intimidate me. I will be just as good, if not better, than their entitled asses. There's something about a guy who works for what he gets and still has something to prove even after he has reached the promised land...or what people think is the promised land. I think hiring partners understand this. Give me the guy with the chip on his shoulder any day of the week.


Unfortunately, HYS grads will still get hired over me and you because clients want people with the cache of a HYS degrees to represent them.

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BigA
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby BigA » Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:31 am

quickquestionthanks wrote:
Well, for starters, your comment suggests, nay states, that people do not distinguish between a school like, say Seton Hall, ranked 78 and a school like UC Davis, ranked 35.

I took his comment to mean that there is no distinction between UC Davis and say... Thomas Jefferson School of Law :shock:

And if you are a practicing attorney and are still touting the rankings (former or current) of the school you graduated from, you suck big, fat rhino-donkey #$%^#^##& at your job...as a matter of fact, you probably don't even have a job. If your school's ranking is the best thing you have acheived since receiving your JD/LL.M, etc, you might want to look into another profession because you have obviously not accomplished much in your law career.

Except I think he went to a TTT. I apologize if I'm wrong. But I think I've seen him post that.

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:51 am

bk1 wrote:
PoliticalJunkie wrote:
thinkbig wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:I mean I'm not a 0L, I'm only a practicing lawyer, so I don't REALLY know about things like the real world or how law schools are actually viewed by actual practicing lawyers like a brilliant 0L... But from my oh so limited perspective, I can tell you, my above assessment is pretty fucking close to spot on. Sorry to hurt feelings, but that's just the way it is.


How rude.


Or pathetic, a practicing lawyer spending his free time on a pre-law/law student board.....how sad.


Whether his assessment is right or wrong, he is a practicing lawyer helping out law and pre-law students. He does not have to do this and it would be wise of you to appreciate that fact before launching into a personal attack.


As much as I may not believe him fully on this issue, this response is still credited, the boards are better because reasonable_man is around.
Last edited by Mickey Quicknumbers on Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:52 am

PDaddy wrote:
Lost me with the bolded part: "caliber of 'person'"? I hope that isn't true. I do not plan on letting anyone from HYS intimidate me. I will be just as good, if not better, than their entitled asses. There's something about a guy who works for what he gets and still has something to prove even after he has reached the promised land...or what people think is the promised land. I think hiring partners understand this. Give me the guy with the chip on his shoulder any day of the week.


that's cute

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quickquestionthanks
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby quickquestionthanks » Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:07 am

PDaddy wrote:
Lost me with the bolded part: "caliber of 'person'"? I hope that isn't true. I do not plan on letting anyone from HYS intimidate me. I will be just as good, if not better, than their entitled asses. There's something about a guy who works for what he gets and still has something to prove even after he has reached the promised land...or what people think is the promised land. I think hiring partners understand this. Give me the guy with the chip on his shoulder any day of the week.


Sorry, but that's a little naive. There's nothing inherently 'entitled' about people from HYS, in fact, quite the opposite. I stand by the 'caliber of person' phrase and liken it to 'caliber of student,' a very common expression.

BigA wrote:
quickquestionthanks wrote:
Well, for starters, your comment suggests, nay states, that people do not distinguish between a school like, say Seton Hall, ranked 78 and a school like UC Davis, ranked 35.

I took his comment to mean that there is no distinction between UC Davis and say... Thomas Jefferson School of Law :shock:


He certainly did say that. I chose a much less absurd comparison and I think still proved my point. :)

He's a Grade A tool.

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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby Aqualibrium » Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:24 am

A'nold wrote:
thinkbig wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:I mean I'm not a 0L, I'm only a practicing lawyer, so I don't REALLY know about things like the real world or how law schools are actually viewed by actual practicing lawyers like a brilliant 0L... But from my oh so limited perspective, I can tell you, my above assessment is pretty fucking close to spot on. Sorry to hurt feelings, but that's just the way it is.


How rude.


In before someone posts a "Full House, Michelle with her arms on her hips" pic.

--ImageRemoved--

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drdolittle
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby drdolittle » Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:36 am

bk1 wrote:
PoliticalJunkie wrote:
Whether his assessment is right or wrong, he is a practicing lawyer helping out law and pre-law students. He does not have to do this and it would be wise of you to appreciate that fact before launching into a personal attack.


As much as I may not believe him fully on this issue, this response is still credited, the boards are better because reasonable_man is around.


LOL. We do not know who the hell this person really is.

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onthecusp
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby onthecusp » Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:55 am

reasonable_man wrote:None.

The rankings are:

T3>T6>T10>T14>T30>Regional Manager for McDonalds>Most other ABA approved Law Schools>Katherine Gibbs Typing Classes>Non-Hamburger College Graduate employee of McDonald's>NYC Area Law schools that aren't T14 or Fordham

In sum.. Outside of the T30... rankings mean nothing. People will argue this point, but those people don't know what they are talking about.


I'll agree with you that outside of the top 30, rankings don't mean a whole lot. But not for the reasons that you think. If you want Big Law, Academia....it's actually probably more like T10> the rest. Outside of that, if you just mean gainful employment in the area of law...it doesn't really matter. Thousands of Tier 3 and 4 law grads are gainfully employed making 70K+ (and even *gasp* 100K+) per year and are quite happy.....so yeah...doing a little better than McDonald's management. And if you disagree...you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

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onthecusp
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby onthecusp » Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:00 am

reasonable_man wrote:I mean I'm not a 0L, I'm only a practicing lawyer, so I don't REALLY know about things like the real world or how law schools are actually viewed by actual practicing lawyers like a brilliant 0L... But from my oh so limited perspective, I can tell you, my above assessment is pretty fucking close to spot on. Sorry to hurt feelings, but that's just the way it is.


Based on EVERY OTHER ACTIVE PRACTICING ATTORNEY I"VE EVER SPOKEN TO, some from the top 14....you're full of shit.

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apper123
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby apper123 » Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:00 am

manbearwig wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:None.

The rankings are:

T3>T6>T10>T14>T30>Regional Manager for McDonalds>Most other ABA approved Law Schools>Katherine Gibbs Typing Classes>Non-Hamburger College Graduate employee of McDonald's>NYC Area Law schools that aren't T14 or Fordham

In sum.. Outside of the T30... rankings mean nothing. People will argue this point, but those people don't know what they are talking about.


I'd take it potentially a step further. Outside of the T14, ranking means very little. There may be more prestige in a T30 school than a T2, but outside of the top, all law schools are regional. Mostly, T30 schools just have a bigger region than a T2 school. Rankings only begin to matter again when you get to Cooley, Florida Coastal, People's College of Law, etc.


This isn't even remotely true.

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bk1
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby bk1 » Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:05 am

Lonagan wrote:Except, he's a prick.


But that doesn't mean he should be attacked based on the fact that he is a lawyer. I would think that people on this website would want as many lawyers here posting helpful information and an attack like that does not help draw them in when they already have little-to-no incentives to do so. Berate him for being a prick, not because he is a lawyer and posting on this website.

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onthecusp
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby onthecusp » Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:09 am

rad law wrote:
PDaddy wrote:Lost me with the bolded part: "caliber of 'person'"? I hope that isn't true. I do not plan on letting anyone from HYS intimidate me. I will be just as good, if not better, than their entitled asses. There's something about a guy who works for what he gets and still has something to prove even after he has reached the promised land...or what people think is the promised land. I think hiring partners understand this. Give me the guy with the chip on his shoulder any day of the week.


Unfortunately, HYS grads will still get hired over me and you because clients want people with the cache of a HYS degrees to represent them.


Sure...and those types of jobs require 80-90 hour work weeks and probably shave 15 years off your life from all the stress. Is that what you really want out of life? Because if it is...get yourself an HYS degree. However, if you desire some measure of QOL outside of practicing law, being a lawyer doesn't begin and end with big law.

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ggocat
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby ggocat » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:14 am

Posting this old article because it hasn't yet been posted in this thread but is on topic: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

Conclusions:

Although the ordering of top NLJ 250 feeder schools is strongly correlated with U.S. News rankings, movement within the top of the hierarchy provides a much larger employment payoff than an equivalent change does for a school ranked in the middle or the bottom.

For the vast majority of students who are not admitted to top tier national law schools, these figures lead to a simple conclusion: Slavishly following the U.S. News rankings will not significantly increase one's large-firm job prospects. And the excess debt that students incur is likely to undermine their career options.


Details:

For example, between schools No. 25 (University of North Carolina) and No. 5 (NYU), NLJ 250 employment rose from 22.8% to 58.2%, an increase of 35.4 percentage points. This change actually understates the employment payoffs because highly ranked schools also send a larger proportion of their graduates to federal judicial clerkships. In turn, at the end of the clerkships, large firms often pay hiring bonuses to these graduates. Conversely, between schools No. 45 (Temple) and No. 25, the increase in large firm employment was only 9.7 percentage points, with fewer judicial clerkships. And between No. 65 (Seton Hall) and No. 45, the increase in large firm employment is a mere 3.8 percentage points.


Generally, employment prospects between tier 2 and tier 3 are very similar. Thus, location and cost should be driving factors when deciding among non-national schools. But of course, when comparing any two schools, you should look at each school's employment numbers and not generalize based on tier or rank.

itsfine
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby itsfine » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:39 am

reasonable_man wrote:
quickquestionthanks wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:None.

The rankings are:

T3>T6>T10>T14>T30>Regional Manager for McDonalds>Most other ABA approved Law Schools>Katherine Gibbs Typing Classes>Non-Hamburger College Graduate employee of McDonald's>NYC Area Law schools that aren't T14 or Fordham

In sum.. Outside of the T30... rankings mean nothing. People will argue this point, but those people don't know what they are talking about.



It's comments like this that give this board a bad reputation. :roll:


You can kiss my ass. Or you can try to prove me wrong. Either way, I win. But first, expand upon your vast experience for which you will predicate your brilliant come-back.



you're a loser

rando
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby rando » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:44 am

onthecusp wrote:
PDaddy wrote:Lost me with the bolded part: "caliber of 'person'"? I hope that isn't true. I do not plan on letting anyone from HYS intimidate me. I will be just as good, if not better, than their entitled asses. There's something about a guy who works for what he gets and still has something to prove even after he has reached the promised land...or what people think is the promised land. I think hiring partners understand this. Give me the guy with the chip on his shoulder any day of the week.


Sure...and those types of jobs require 80-90 hour work weeks and probably shave 15 years off your life from all the stress. Is that what you really want out of life? Because if it is...get yourself an HYS degree. However, if you desire some measure of QOL outside of practicing law, being a lawyer doesn't begin and end with big law.


This is pretty sad rationalization. I know quite a few HYS students and grads and they are anything but entitled. In fact, they are the hardest working people I know. Assuming you will be just as good or better is pretty naive.

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TonyDigital
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby TonyDigital » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:46 am

quickquestionthanks wrote:Well, for starters, your comment suggests, nay states, that people do not distinguish between a school like, say Seton Hall, ranked 78 and a school like UC Davis, ranked 35. The selectivity and quality of student is clearly quite different as is the portability of their degrees. Same applies to a wide range of comparisons between schools outside the top 30, with which I will not bore you.

The point is, there is life beyond your T30, or T14, or T3 world. And in that world, the quality of your education matters. And the ranking of your school suggests to potential employers and clients what caliber of person they are dealing with.


Using this logic, a person that opts to take a full ride to a Tier 2 or 3 school instead of going to the T30 they've been accepted to at sticker has reduced their own quality and caliber as a person? Is that what you're saying? Really?




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