Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

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thinkbig
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby thinkbig » Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:10 pm

jtxcounitah wrote:+1 for reasonable_Man... he's the one making sense here. thanks to everyone else for the numbers and percentages and arguing about whether a 35 is better than a 75 is better than a regional T3. you should all go pick your schools based on the highest USWNR ranking possible. that or whether it has a great basketball team. go march madness.


+1 on all counts. I was a little put off by reasonable_Man's tone but I do value the perspective of someone who is actually there.

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quickquestionthanks
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby quickquestionthanks » Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:18 pm

Ok. There's a difference between rankings "not meaning everything" and "meaning nothing." No one is disputing that they don't mean everything, but it's retarded to think or tell others they mean nothing. That type of fallacy results in missed LR questions.

The hate for unreasonable man is stemming from him saying something that is obviously retarded (that rankings mean nothing, again different than rankings not meaning everything) and then saying that people will argue the point but that's because they "don't know what they're talking about" when obviously a little logic and data will show that we do.

You can run your mouth all you want, but eventually people will call you out when offensive shit spews out of it. So I wouldn't feel bad for him for one second. After all, this is a professional message board. And he told me to kiss his ass.

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JTX
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby JTX » Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:24 pm

quickquestionthanks wrote:...The hate for unreasonable man is stemming from him saying something ...


clever...

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r2b2ct
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby r2b2ct » Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:34 pm

+1 to reasonable_man for making an argument out of what was basically a consensus by over-exaggerating every point he made and being an ass.

erniesto
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby erniesto » Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:41 pm

UC DAVIS is not that great of a school. It's the equivalent of any school between 40-70.

The differences between the bottom of the #20-#30 and the rest of T50 are illusory (not saying you are saying they aren't... just pointing out the issue some people have with the whole T30 concept)

I don't think T30 is some magic cut off. The numbers don't support that. There does seem to a pretty big drop off from the 30-35% NLJ 250 employment of the BU, BC, Fordham level. But lots of schools in the T30 don't do much better than the rest of T1 to T2

NLJ 250 placement of some T1
UC Davis: 17%
SMU: 23%
WF: 20%
Wisc: 23%
U of Houst: 18%
BYU: 20%

NLJ 250 placement of some T30
William and Mary: 22%
Iowa: 20%
Minnesota: 19%
W&L: 19%
Emory: 24%
Alabama: <13%
UNC: 15%
U of Wash: 20%

none of those are stellar numbers, so it certainly doesn't appear that going to a T30 school is obviously a better choice than 30-70 or so


The reason most of those schools are T30 is because they're public and are absolute bargains (higher application selectivity) compared to other schools, or simply the best in their pisspoor regions (Emory).

reasonable_man did 0L delusionalists a big favor, he sparked a delusional outcry which was then doused with actual facts and figures crediting his original assertions. You've been warned and pretty much spoon fed your info. Do your research! If not, dump all that scholarship money at your "safeties" to pander to some bogus unread publication's ranking system (nobody is saying go to TTTT Unaccredited Bumblefuck College btw) and go to those 30s ranked UC schools out of state at sticker. Some of us would gladly gobble up that scholly money to go to our lesser ranked schools for 1/2 to full discount.
Last edited by erniesto on Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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BigA
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby BigA » Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:42 pm

manbearwig wrote:I really hate to get back into this thread, but I'm getting the feeling that people are arguing different things. Just because people say rank doesn't matter below a certain cutoff (T14, T30, whatever), they're not saying that the only schools worth going to are T14 or that lower T1, T2, and T3 schools are the same as obviously crap schools like Cooley. What they're saying is that at a certain point, region matters more than rank. If you want to practice in a specific region, and you can't get into a school with solid national recognition (and few schools below T30 have this), you should go to the strongest school in your region. This may be a T2 or a T3. There's also the possibility that there's a school that's not directly where you want to practice, but close enough and good enough that it has strong job connections there anyway. So, in that sense, ranks of schools in a specific region matter.

For example, I want to stay in the Philly area. I'm not too concerned about Biglaw, so I don't need to worry about that. My first obvious choice would be UPenn. However, I didn't get in there. The highest ranking school I got into was Boston University at #20. I also got into BC, GW, and W&M, all T30. But, I want to live in Philly. So even though these schools are ranked highly, they will not help me find many jobs in Philly. Therefore, I'm going to Temple. Even though it's #65, it still places better in the Philly. The higher rankings didn't matter.


That's inferring A LOT from what was actually said

CSKNJ
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby CSKNJ » Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:47 pm

My cousin went to Widener a 4T works for Marshall, Dennehey, Warner Coleman & Goggin one of the Philly big law firms. He was on the law journal there but still it shows that you can really make the most of an average school and land a great gig. Sure there are those firms that will shut out anyone not from a T14, but my cousin had a strong specialization in product liability and was able to land a great job shortly after graduating.

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quickquestionthanks
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby quickquestionthanks » Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:15 pm

jtxcounitah wrote:
quickquestionthanks wrote:...The hate for unreasonable man is stemming from him saying something ...


clever...


Totally unintentional. Seriously, a Freudian slip.

Officially done with this thread. Will take my scholly at the top rated school in the area in which I want to practice. Peace.

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r2b2ct
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby r2b2ct » Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:43 pm

erniesto wrote:The reason most of those schools are T30 is because they're public and are absolute bargains (higher application selectivity) compared to other schools, or simply the best in their pisspoor regions (Emory).

reasonable_man did 0L delusionalists a big favor, he sparked a delusional outcry which was then doused with actual facts and figures crediting his original assertions. You've been warned and pretty much spoon fed your info. Do your research! If not, dump all that scholarship money at your "safeties" to pander to some bogus unread publication's ranking system (nobody is saying go to TTTT Unaccredited Bumblefuck College btw) and go to those 30s ranked UC schools out of state at sticker. Some of us would gladly gobble up that scholly money to go to our lesser ranked schools for 1/2 to full discount.

I think you're under the delusion that these "delusionalists" have ever been in this thread and that you've been arguing against them.

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A'nold
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby A'nold » Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:49 pm

r2b2ct wrote:
erniesto wrote:The reason most of those schools are T30 is because they're public and are absolute bargains (higher application selectivity) compared to other schools, or simply the best in their pisspoor regions (Emory).

reasonable_man did 0L delusionalists a big favor, he sparked a delusional outcry which was then doused with actual facts and figures crediting his original assertions. You've been warned and pretty much spoon fed your info. Do your research! If not, dump all that scholarship money at your "safeties" to pander to some bogus unread publication's ranking system (nobody is saying go to TTTT Unaccredited Bumblefuck College btw) and go to those 30s ranked UC schools out of state at sticker. Some of us would gladly gobble up that scholly money to go to our lesser ranked schools for 1/2 to full discount.

I think you're under the delusion that these "delusionalists" have ever been in this thread and that you've been arguing against them.


Thinking the "delusionalists" as you call them are not in this thread just shows that you are one. Hth.

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r2b2ct
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby r2b2ct » Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:52 pm

A'nold wrote:
r2b2ct wrote:
erniesto wrote:The reason most of those schools are T30 is because they're public and are absolute bargains (higher application selectivity) compared to other schools, or simply the best in their pisspoor regions (Emory).

reasonable_man did 0L delusionalists a big favor, he sparked a delusional outcry which was then doused with actual facts and figures crediting his original assertions. You've been warned and pretty much spoon fed your info. Do your research! If not, dump all that scholarship money at your "safeties" to pander to some bogus unread publication's ranking system (nobody is saying go to TTTT Unaccredited Bumblefuck College btw) and go to those 30s ranked UC schools out of state at sticker. Some of us would gladly gobble up that scholly money to go to our lesser ranked schools for 1/2 to full discount.

I think you're under the delusion that these "delusionalists" have ever been in this thread and that you've been arguing against them.


Thinking the "delusionalists" as you call them are not in this thread just shows that you are one. Hth.

You might want to read through again bud. hth

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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby FunkyJD » Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:17 pm

ggocat wrote:Posting this old article because it hasn't yet been posted in this thread but is on topic: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

I found this information from the article posted above to be especially instructive:

Below school No. 28 (University of Southern California), a graduate has a less than one in five probability of starting his or her career a large law firm. If 80% of law school applicants are convinced that they will make that 20% cutoff, three out of four are destined to be disappointed. With these numbers, does it really make economic sense to go to the highest-ranked school one can get into? In many cases, the answer is no.


and

Image

Also found this to be instructive:

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/composite.pdf

My conclusions:

1. In which markets/regions do I want to practice?
2. Do I like a particular school in a preferred region, and is it one of the top 3 schools in its market?
3. Did I get accepted?
4. Is the money good?
5. If yes to questions 2,3 and 4, then that school is one of my top choices. If not, I move on.

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reasonable_man
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby reasonable_man » Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:09 am

FunkyJD wrote:
ggocat wrote:Posting this old article because it hasn't yet been posted in this thread but is on topic: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

I found this information from the article posted above to be especially instructive:

Below school No. 28 (University of Southern California), a graduate has a less than one in five probability of starting his or her career a large law firm. If 80% of law school applicants are convinced that they will make that 20% cutoff, three out of four are destined to be disappointed. With these numbers, does it really make economic sense to go to the highest-ranked school one can get into? In many cases, the answer is no.


and

Image

Also found this to be instructive:

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/composite.pdf

My conclusions:

1. In which markets/regions do I want to practice?
2. Do I like a particular school in a preferred region, and is it one of the top 3 schools in its market?
3. Did I get accepted?
4. Is the money good?
5. If yes to questions 2,3 and 4, then that school is one of my top choices. If not, I move on.



Hmm.. This chart seems to add something to my argument... Anyway....


Here are the facts. Place aside the top 30 and focus on the rest. Cardozzo (a top 55) places roughly 10% in biglaw. SJU and BLS place close to what 8% in a good economy? NYLS, a festering TTT places what 4 to 6%? The fact of the matter is that if you are outside of that group, you're in the same boat. You are hoping, begging and scrounging for Midlaw jobs (which are VERY hard to find), or State agencies (also very hard to get). The simple fact of the matter is that unless you're in one of the top groups from a non T30 school, you're VERY similarly situated upon graduation when its time to find a job. You can call me an asshole, a jerkoff, a meanie-head, or any other number of things, but the fact of the matter is that I'm right. You can pull 50,000 different charts and statistics, etc., but it does not change anything.

As an aside, I'm not telling people to not attend law school. That happens to be a very personal decision that people should make on their own. I did not attend a top law school. However, I worked very hard in college to make connections by working in a great firm, which eventually lead to further connections, which eventually led to a job which was way beyond the scope of jobs that was available to most of my fellow graduates form my LS. I'm sorry to say, I have many friends that graduated from much higher ranked schools, that simply have not done so well.

20 years ago, the USNWR did not rank schools beyond the top 20 or so. Thats because the further down you go, the real difference between schools becomes very hard to determine. Is a school ranked 45 much better than Cooley? Yes. However, Cardozzo is simply not that much better than Catholic U. Its just the way it is.

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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby FunkyJD » Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:21 am

reasonable_man wrote:
FunkyJD wrote:
ggocat wrote:Posting this old article because it hasn't yet been posted in this thread but is on topic: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

I found this information from the article posted above to be especially instructive:

Below school No. 28 (University of Southern California), a graduate has a less than one in five probability of starting his or her career a large law firm. If 80% of law school applicants are convinced that they will make that 20% cutoff, three out of four are destined to be disappointed. With these numbers, does it really make economic sense to go to the highest-ranked school one can get into? In many cases, the answer is no.


and
[Edited for space]

Also found this to be instructive:

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/composite.pdf

My conclusions:

1. In which markets/regions do I want to practice?
2. Do I like a particular school in a preferred region, and is it one of the top 3 schools in its market?
3. Did I get accepted?
4. Is the money good?
5. If yes to questions 2,3 and 4, then that school is one of my top choices. If not, I move on.



Hmm.. This chart seems to add something to my argument... Anyway....


Here are the facts. Place aside the top 30 and focus on the rest. Cardozzo (a top 55) places roughly 10% in biglaw. SJU and BLS place close to what 8% in a good economy? NYLS, a festering TTT places what 4 to 6%? The fact of the matter is that if you are outside of that group, you're in the same boat. You are hoping, begging and scrounging for Midlaw jobs (which are VERY hard to find), or State agencies (also very hard to get). The simple fact of the matter is that unless you're in one of the top groups from a non T30 school, you're VERY similarly situated upon graduation when its time to find a job. You can call me an asshole, a jerkoff, a meanie-head, or any other number of things, but the fact of the matter is that I'm right. You can pull 50,000 different charts and statistics, etc., but it does not change anything.

On the whole, I'm actually agreeing with you. Check out my profile -- there's a substantial chance I'll pass up Tier 1 schools ranked T30-50 -- and possibly even T25 -- to go to a Tier 2 with $$$$. The risk that you stated above is why. I'm a debt averse person to begin with, and I'm not going to pay extra unnecessarily for marketing/vanity.

reasonable_man wrote:As an aside, I'm not telling people to not attend law school. That happens to be a very personal decision that people should make on their own. I did not attend a top law school. However, I worked very hard in college to make connections by working in a great firm, which eventually lead to further connections, which eventually led to a job which was way beyond the scope of jobs that was available to most of my fellow graduates form my LS. I'm sorry to say, I have many friends that graduated from much higher ranked schools, that simply have not done so well.

This, to me, in law school, is ballgame. If you don't hustle to make something happen for you, you're screwed. Maybe the glamour of your school's name saves you, maybe it doesn't. But to me, it's all about keeping debt low, busting ass in class, and hustling for contacts -- treating law school like your business.

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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby keg411 » Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:31 am

RM, the only issue I have with your rankings is that you give too much credit to schools ranked 20-30. You don't want to mislead people that paying $250k sticker for a school like Fordham or GW is worth it. Saturated markets, ultra-high COL, etc. etc.

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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby qualster » Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:56 am

keg411 wrote:RM, the only issue I have with your rankings is that you give too much credit to schools ranked 20-30. You don't want to mislead people that paying $250k sticker for a school like Fordham or GW is worth it. Saturated markets, ultra-high COL, etc. etc.


+1

Many schools between 20-30 are probably as overpriced as those between 30-50. Seriously, the University of Iowa at $43K per year + cost of living for an out of stater? Are you f-ing kidding me? If one attends GW at sticker and finishes in the bottom 40 % of the class, he is screwed. Anything beyond the T17 or whatever is a real gamble. That's jus the way it is. A guy who finishes bottom 30% at Minnesota or Fordham isn't really much better off than an SMU grad, a Miami grad, or a Depaul grad, right? So a lot graduates from 18-30 schools are bound to be in a bit of a pinch upon graduating, or so it would seem.

Or am I wrong in what I said above? I could be wrong.
Last edited by qualster on Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby JOThompson » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:08 am

quickquestionthanks wrote:Ok. There's a difference between rankings "not meaning everything" and "meaning nothing." No one is disputing that they don't mean everything, but it's retarded to think or tell others they mean nothing. That type of fallacy results in missed LR questions.

Most logical post I've seen in some time. The truth is hidden somewhere in between the two extremes. It's absurd to say that rankings outside the T20/30 have NO relation to career prospects and it's equally silly to rely on rankings as the sole determining factor when choosing a law school.

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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby erniesto » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:16 am

I think the reason credit needs to be given to 20-30s is the fact that many are well known publics and decent choices for in state students. A case can be made for and against schools like GW, ND, Boston College and Fordham, and I think those schools might be the handful of gray area decisions where non-public sticker vs the Tier 2 big scholarship money outside of the top-20 can be possibly justified.

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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby r2b2ct » Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:17 am

JOThompson wrote:
quickquestionthanks wrote:Ok. There's a difference between rankings "not meaning everything" and "meaning nothing." No one is disputing that they don't mean everything, but it's retarded to think or tell others they mean nothing. That type of fallacy results in missed LR questions.

Most logical post I've seen in some time. The truth is hidden somewhere in between the two extremes. It's absurd to say that rankings outside the T20/30 have NO relation to career prospects and it's equally silly to rely on rankings as the sole determining factor when choosing a law school.

+1

From what I can tell, no one in this thread has been arguing that it is wise to choose schools outside of T30 based on ranking. They were arguing against the clumsily exaggerated statement that outside of T30 "rankings mean nothing". Then they were branded as naive, delusional, etc for disagreeing.

That said, I find reasonable_man's most recent post much more down to earth and helpful.

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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby A'nold » Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:22 am

r2b2ct wrote:
JOThompson wrote:
quickquestionthanks wrote:Ok. There's a difference between rankings "not meaning everything" and "meaning nothing." No one is disputing that they don't mean everything, but it's retarded to think or tell others they mean nothing. That type of fallacy results in missed LR questions.

Most logical post I've seen in some time. The truth is hidden somewhere in between the two extremes. It's absurd to say that rankings outside the T20/30 have NO relation to career prospects and it's equally silly to rely on rankings as the sole determining factor when choosing a law school.

+1

From what I can tell, no one in this thread has been arguing that it is wise to choose schools outside of T30 based on ranking. They were arguing against the clumsily exaggerated statement that outside of T30 "rankings mean nothing". Then they were branded as naive, delusional, etc for disagreeing.

That said, I find reasonable_man's most recent post much more down to earth and helpful.


Blah? Blah blah blah blah? Blah?

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quickquestionthanks
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby quickquestionthanks » Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:28 am

A'nold wrote:Blah? Blah blah blah blah? Blah?


Again, I was only pointing out that comments as obnoxious as reasonable_man's and the one above are the reason there are so many side liners who feel intimidated about signing up to ask a question.

There are TONS of people in this echo chamber who can be just as helpful to people new to this professional/scholastic realm without being rude and dismissive. To those people, who might not be registered and have concerns about the process, ask away. There are many nice knowledgeable people here willing to respond.

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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby A'nold » Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:32 am

quickquestionthanks wrote:
A'nold wrote:Blah? Blah blah blah blah? Blah?


Again, I was only pointing out that comments as obnoxious as reasonable_man's and the one above are the reason there are so many side liners who feel intimidated about signing up to ask a question.

There are TONS of people in this echo chamber who can be just as helpful to people new to this professional/scholastic realm without being rude and dismissive. To those people, who might not be registered and have concerns about the process, ask away. There are many nice knowledgeable people here willing to respond.


LOL at me not being helpful and *cue suspenseful music* scaring people away from this site.

I would say that I am one of the most helpful posters on this site and am one of the only advocates for being decent to people looking at lower ranked schools. Attacking me just shows your noobieness and you ignorance.

The reason I posted that way to the above poster is that he/she is an obnoxious know-it-all 0L who thinks that they can one up reasonable_man, a very respected poster on this board using semantics. The haughty way that the poster speaks sounds like "blah blah blah" to anyone with any experience irl with law school.

erniesto
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby erniesto » Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:52 am

That's an exaggeration of the general argument, which is that rankings don't matter in that there are not significant placement odds between a rank 35 school and a decent third tier school. This coupled with significantly larger debt as you go up the rankings makes 30 level schools as ideal reach schools a delusional, though seemingly popular idea.

The synthesis of my claim would be to choose the school that requires the significantly (over 3 years) least amount of debt in the region you want to practice in, barring a T30 acceptance, which would require different consideration. If you're paying sticker or close to it across the board you probably applied to the wrong schools, but you might as well take the best placing school. This excludes bad scholarships and unaccredited or otherwise bogus schools.

For example, assuming non residency, Hastings offers you sticker, USF offers 30k scholarship renewable ever year given top 40% class rank, Golden gate offers full tuition given you make top 15%, lowered to 10k if you are only top 50%. Go with USF. If you can't make top 40 there imagine where you would have probably ended up at Hastings.

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A'nold
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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby A'nold » Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:14 am

erniesto wrote:That's an exaggeration of the general argument, which is that rankings don't matter in that there are not significant placement odds between a rank 35 school and a decent third tier school. This coupled with significantly larger debt as you go up the rankings makes 30 level schools as ideal reach schools a delusional, though seemingly popular idea.

The synthesis of my claim would be to choose the school that requires the significantly (over 3 years) least amount of debt in the region you want to practice in, barring a T30 acceptance, which would require different consideration. If you're paying sticker or close to it across the board you probably applied to the wrong schools, but you might as well take the best placing school. This excludes bad scholarships and unaccredited or otherwise bogus schools.

For example, assuming non residency, Hastings offers you sticker, USF offers 30k scholarship renewable ever year given top 40% class rank, Golden gate offers full tuition given you make top 15%, lowered to 10k if you are only top 50%. Go with USF. If you can't make top 40 there imagine where you would have probably ended up at Hastings.


I actually kind of agree based on the fact that I think people on here WAY overexaggerate the likelihood of losing a big scholly b/c of a class rank stipulation. I mean, if you are below 40% at USF, what are your job options really like anyway? Not trying to be mean, it's like that at my school almost no matter where you stand in your class, unfortunately.

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Re: Real difference between T2 75-10 and T3?

Postby reasonable_man » Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:04 pm

quickquestionthanks wrote:
A'nold wrote:Blah? Blah blah blah blah? Blah?


Again, I was only pointing out that comments as obnoxious as reasonable_man's and the one above are the reason there are so many side liners who feel intimidated about signing up to ask a question.

There are TONS of people in this echo chamber who can be just as helpful to people new to this professional/scholastic realm without being rude and dismissive. To those people, who might not be registered and have concerns about the process, ask away. There are many nice knowledgeable people here willing to respond.



You do realize that you note that I am a "dick," but at the same time you sound like a know-it-all college junior who thinks he has the whole world figured out? If not, you're now on notice that you sound like a know-it-all college junior who thinks he has the whole world figured out. That said, you're only about 130 posts deep, which leaves a lot of time to fix this.. Look into it..




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