If You Want to be an Corporate Attorney in BigLaw...

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )

Should You Go To Law School for Corp Law if its not YHS?

Yes, but only if its YHS
8
4%
Yes, but only if its CCN or above
14
6%
Yes, but only if its a T14
81
38%
Yes, even if its outside the T14
113
52%
 
Total votes: 216

biglawhopeful88
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If You Want to be an Corporate Attorney in BigLaw...

Postby biglawhopeful88 » Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:09 pm

Is it worth going to law school if you don't get into T14? I hear that even in the T14, if you don't go to YHSCCN, its very difficult to score a corporate job with a big law firm these days, so I can only imagine how terrible it must be at schools below that. My LSAT hasn't been looking that great (160-162), and my GPA is mediocre at best (3.5), so I'm wondering if I should cut my losses and pursue something else. I know you will say that if you graduate in the top 10% at a decent regional school you can still get in, but to begin with, there is only a 10% chance of that happening, and even if you succeed, there's no guarantee still that you will get a job (the 10% thing is just to be COMPETITIVE).

thoughts?

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AngryAvocado
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Re: If You Want to be an Corporate Attorney in BigLaw...

Postby AngryAvocado » Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:11 pm

"an corporate attorney"?

Cut your losses, IMO.

lawduder
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Re: If You Want to be an Corporate Attorney in BigLaw...

Postby lawduder » Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:29 pm

dumb thread

icydash
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Re: If You Want to be an Corporate Attorney in BigLaw...

Postby icydash » Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:31 pm

You can do corporate law outside T14. I have seen it many, many times... And even at T14 schools you're not guaranteed a job, you're just "competitive."
Last edited by icydash on Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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SteelReserve
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Re: If You Want to be an Corporate Attorney in BigLaw...

Postby SteelReserve » Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:33 pm

Actually, I don't think this is a dumb thread at all--if OP is serious, he shows more foresight than 90% of law school applicants. At least he seems to understand that it is ludicrous to bet your fiscal future on a 5% chance of landing biglaw while paying freight for a TTT.

I wouldn't say it's "very difficult" to land biglaw from lower T14--it's just no cake walk and you need to put the effort in to do well.

But yes, if the only reason you want to go into law is to land a biglaw spot you should absolutely not go to law school with those scores.

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Jay-Electronica
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Re: If You Want to be an Corporate Attorney in BigLaw...

Postby Jay-Electronica » Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:37 pm

Echo Chamber

Aqualibrium
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Re: If You Want to be an Corporate Attorney in BigLaw...

Postby Aqualibrium » Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:39 pm

everybody wants to work in "big law." Wake up people, there are more lawyers than jobs.

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rayiner
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Re: If You Want to be an Corporate Attorney in BigLaw...

Postby rayiner » Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:53 pm

Depends on your level of risk aversion. YHS is the only place right now where the vast majority of the class will still get biglaw. I wouldn't (and didn't), turn down T7-14 at sticker even ITE, but it's not the slam-dunk it used to be. And if I wasn't IP I probably would've lost a few more winks of sleep last semester.

icydash
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Re: If You Want to be an Corporate Attorney in BigLaw...

Postby icydash » Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:56 pm

Honestly, you can also not work in "big law," take an initial 20k a year pay cut, have a life and still be extremely happy/well off in a small/mid-sized firm....You can also still practice corporate law and eventually make partner/a ludicrous amount of money.

I don't get everyone's obsession with "big law." After reading lots of these threads, I've come to realize a lot of it is more of a prestige thing than any tangible factor for those people who want it....and a lot of people don't even really get what it is/entails.

But back from my tangent: you can still get into a decent school and practice corporate law with your stats. Obviously, it wouldn't hurt to study harder and improve your LSAT score, but your life isn't over.

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rayiner
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Re: If You Want to be an Corporate Attorney in BigLaw...

Postby rayiner » Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:57 pm

icydash wrote:Honestly, you can also not work in "big law," take an initial 20k a year pay cut, have a life and still be extremely happy/well off in a small/mid-sized firm....You can also still practice corporate law and eventually make partner/a ludicrous amount of money.


Man, lot's of T14 students would *love* to find a non-biglaw job that paid "only" $20k/year less at a small/mid-sized firm where they had a good shot at making partner.

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Na_Swatch
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Re: If You Want to be an Corporate Attorney in BigLaw...

Postby Na_Swatch » Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:09 pm

icydash wrote:Honestly, you can also not work in "big law," take an initial 20k a year pay cut, have a life and still be extremely happy/well off in a small/mid-sized firm....You can also still practice corporate law and eventually make partner/a ludicrous amount of money.

I don't get everyone's obsession with "big law." After reading lots of these threads, I've come to realize a lot of it is more of a prestige thing than any tangible factor for those people who want it....and a lot of people don't even really get what it is/entails.

But back from my tangent: you can still get into a decent school and practice corporate law with your stats. Obviously, it wouldn't hurt to study harder and improve your LSAT score, but your life isn't over.


that's a great fictional job you have there...

in reality nothing like that exists for those getting straight out of law school

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AngryAvocado
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Re: If You Want to be an Corporate Attorney in BigLaw...

Postby AngryAvocado » Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:11 pm

rayiner wrote:
icydash wrote:Honestly, you can also not work in "big law," take an initial 20k a year pay cut, have a life and still be extremely happy/well off in a small/mid-sized firm....You can also still practice corporate law and eventually make partner/a ludicrous amount of money.


Man, lot's of T14 students would *love* to find a non-biglaw job that paid "only" $20k/year less at a small/mid-sized firm where they had a good shot at making partner.


+1. I'm likely headed to CCN and I would chew off my left leg for such a job.

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Unemployed
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Re: If You Want to be an Corporate Attorney in BigLaw...

Postby Unemployed » Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:23 pm

icydash wrote:Honestly, you can also not work in "big law," take an initial 20k a year pay cut, have a life and still be extremely happy/well off in a small/mid-sized firm....You can also still practice corporate law and eventually make partner/a ludicrous amount of money.


Image

icydash
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Re: If You Want to be an Corporate Attorney in BigLaw...

Postby icydash » Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:31 pm

My brother, coming out of Albany law school, got a job in a medium NYC corporate law/litigation firm-- starting salary ABOVE big law.

These kinds of jobs exist all over -- most of you guys just don't know it because you're 0Ls speculating. I know it because my father, who is a senior partner at a firm for over 30 years in NYC (also from Albany Law School), my uncle whose now a judge (St. Johns Law School), and many other partners in my dads firm (Hofstra grads, Brooklyn Law School grads, Loyola grads, etc) have all done it -- and they where by no means "special," in the top 10% of their class, etc.

Contrary to popular belief, once you get into a firm, the law school you went to means little to nothing. What makes or breaks your chance at partnership is your ability to bring in clients and the quality of your work. In reality, law school only *helps* you get that first job, and there are many small/medium sized firms with partnership tracks and great salaries out there. I guarantee you law firms would take an Albany Law School grad with a book of work he can bring in and not look twice at the school on his resume.
Last edited by icydash on Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

icydash
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Re: If You Want to be an Corporate Attorney in BigLaw...

Postby icydash » Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:34 pm

Which part of my statement are you guys having trouble believing? The fact that there are small/medium sized firms with a partnership track where one can practice corporate law...And you get paid more money as you work your way up to partner? There are like thousands of them -- Why is this so hard to believe?

270910
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Re: If You Want to be an Corporate Attorney in BigLaw...

Postby 270910 » Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:35 pm

icydash wrote:My brother, coming out of Albany law school, got a job in a medium NYC/Dallas corporate law/litigation firm-- starting salary: 175k. That's ABOVE big law.

These kinds of jobs exist all over -- most of you guys just don't know it because you're 0Ls speculating. I know it because my father, who is a senior partner at a firm for over 30 years in NYC (also from Albany Law School), my uncle whose now a judge (St. Johns Law School), and many other partners in my dads firm (Hofstra grads, Brooklyn Law School grads, Loyola grads, etc) have all done it -- and they where by no means "special," in the top 10% of their class, etc.

Contrary to popular belief, once you get into a firm, the law school you went to means little to nothing. What makes or breaks your chance at partnership is your ability to bring in clients and the quality of your work. In reality, law school only *helps* you get that first job, and there are many small/medium sized firms with partnership tracks and great salaries out there. I guarantee you law firms would take an Albany Law School grad with a book of work he can bring in and not look twice at the school on his resume.


Image

corporatelaw87
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Re: If You Want to be an Corporate Attorney in BigLaw...

Postby corporatelaw87 » Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:36 pm

icydash wrote:My brother, coming out of Albany law school, got a job in a medium NYC/Dallas corporate law/litigation firm-- starting salary: 175k. That's ABOVE big law.

These kinds of jobs exist all over -- most of you guys just don't know it because you're 0Ls speculating. I know it because my father, who is a senior partner at a firm for over 30 years in NYC (also from Albany Law School), my uncle whose now a judge (St. Johns Law School), and many other partners in my dads firm (Hofstra grads, Brooklyn Law School grads, Loyola grads, etc) have all done it -- and they where by no means "special," in the top 10% of their class, etc.

Contrary to popular belief, once you get into a firm, the law school you went to means little to nothing. What makes or breaks your chance at partnership is your ability to bring in clients and the quality of your work. In reality, law school only *helps* you get that first job, and there are many small/medium sized firms with partnership tracks and great salaries out there. I guarantee you law firms would take an Albany Law School grad with a book of work he can bring in and not look twice at the school on his resume.


Well said, completely agree.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: If You Want to be an Corporate Attorney in BigLaw...

Postby DoubleChecks » Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:38 pm

icydash wrote:My brother, coming out of Albany law school, got a job in a medium NYC/Dallas corporate law/litigation firm-- starting salary: 175k. That's ABOVE big law.

These kinds of jobs exist all over -- most of you guys just don't know it because you're 0Ls speculating. I know it because my father, who is a senior partner at a firm for over 30 years in NYC (also from Albany Law School), my uncle whose now a judge (St. Johns Law School), and many other partners in my dads firm (Hofstra grads, Brooklyn Law School grads, Loyola grads, etc) have all done it -- and they where by no means "special," in the top 10% of their class, etc.

Contrary to popular belief, once you get into a firm, the law school you went to means little to nothing. What makes or breaks your chance at partnership is your ability to bring in clients and the quality of your work. In reality, law school only *helps* you get that first job, and there are many small/medium sized firms with partnership tracks and great salaries out there. I guarantee you law firms would take an Albany Law School grad with a book of work he can bring in and not look twice at the school on his resume.


i think most of the ppl commenting arent 0L's but okay sure. are you actually TRYING to get these jobs right now? some ppl on these boards are, and it is tough. congrats to your brother though - did he do it ITE? if so, WOW, i think ppl will want to take some tips from him...he certainly isnt the norm. if he didnt do it ITE, well then thats a different world we're talking about.

interesting thing i just noticed, most of your family is in law. i wonder if that has anything to do w/ their overall success...you know, the whole networking and connections business that matters so much lol.

as far as i can tell, on TLS, it doesnt seem to be "popular belief" that your law school matters a lot outside of your first job. it is just that the law school really determines what first job you can get (and subsequently your 2nd).

and are we resorting to anecdotal evidence again? i mean, i hate statistics w/ a passion akin to benjamin disraeli's, but virtually all anecdotal evidence = crap (excluding tips we could learn i.e. maybe how your brother accomplished what he did).

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Re: If You Want to be an Corporate Attorney in BigLaw...

Postby icydash » Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:41 pm

disco_barred wrote:
icydash wrote:My brother, coming out of Albany law school, got a job in a medium NYC corporate law/litigation firm-- starting salary ABOVE big law.

These kinds of jobs exist all over -- most of you guys just don't know it because you're 0Ls speculating. I know it because my father, who is a senior partner at a firm for over 30 years in NYC (also from Albany Law School), my uncle whose now a judge (St. Johns Law School), and many other partners in my dads firm (Hofstra grads, Brooklyn Law School grads, Loyola grads, etc) have all done it -- and they where by no means "special," in the top 10% of their class, etc.

Contrary to popular belief, once you get into a firm, the law school you went to means little to nothing. What makes or breaks your chance at partnership is your ability to bring in clients and the quality of your work. In reality, law school only *helps* you get that first job, and there are many small/medium sized firms with partnership tracks and great salaries out there. I guarantee you law firms would take an Albany Law School grad with a book of work he can bring in and not look twice at the school on his resume.


Image

I know, it's shocking, but the truth--get used to it. In reality, it'll be great that you went to Harvard; you might get looked at initially by more firms--but once you're in a firm competing with another associate for that partnership position, all that matters is the quality of your work and the clients you bring in. If you're up against an associate from Cardozo with a book of work, sorry, but Harvard means jack shit.
Last edited by icydash on Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:44 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Na_Swatch
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Re: If You Want to be an Corporate Attorney in BigLaw...

Postby Na_Swatch » Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:43 pm

icydash wrote:My brother, coming out of Albany law school, got a job in a medium NYC/Dallas corporate law/litigation firm-- starting salary: 175k. That's ABOVE big law.

These kinds of jobs exist all over -- most of you guys just don't know it because you're 0Ls speculating. I know it because my father, who is a senior partner at a firm for over 30 years in NYC (also from Albany Law School), my uncle whose now a judge (St. Johns Law School), and many other partners in my dads firm (Hofstra grads, Brooklyn Law School grads, Loyola grads, etc) have all done it -- and they where by no means "special," in the top 10% of their class, etc.

Contrary to popular belief, once you get into a firm, the law school you went to means little to nothing. What makes or breaks your chance at partnership is your ability to bring in clients and the quality of your work. In reality, law school only *helps* you get that first job, and there are many small/medium sized firms with partnership tracks and great salaries out there. I guarantee you law firms would take an Albany Law School grad with a book of work he can bring in and not look twice at the school on his resume.


What is the flaw in this reasoning?

Ans: Atypical or unreliable data from a small sample size. The job your saying your brother has seems much more related to the fact that your father is a senior partner than in the fact that he graduated from Albany.

The partners your talking about (from Hofstra, Brooklyn, etc..) graduated decades ago and thus is completely unreliable compared to graduates today. Its a totally diff system now.

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Re: If You Want to be an Corporate Attorney in BigLaw...

Postby 270910 » Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:46 pm

icydash wrote:I know, it's shocking, but the truth--get used to it. In reality, it'll be great that you went to Harvard, you might get looked at initially at more firms--but one you're in a firm competing with another associate for that partnership position, all that matters is the quality of your work and the clients you bring in. If you're up against an associate from Cardozo with a book of work, sorry, but Harvard means jack shit.


icydash: What you said in that quote is completely, 100% correct.

Your prior post seemed to discount the IMMENSE difficulty of getting a corporate law firm job where you even have the chance of making partner from a school like Cardozo.
Last edited by 270910 on Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

icydash
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Re: If You Want to be an Corporate Attorney in BigLaw...

Postby icydash » Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:48 pm

DoubleChecks wrote:
icydash wrote:My brother, coming out of Albany law school, got a job in a medium NYC corporate law/litigation firm-- starting salary ABOVE big law.

These kinds of jobs exist all over -- most of you guys just don't know it because you're 0Ls speculating. I know it because my father, who is a senior partner at a firm for over 30 years in NYC (also from Albany Law School), my uncle whose now a judge (St. Johns Law School), and many other partners in my dads firm (Hofstra grads, Brooklyn Law School grads, Loyola grads, etc) have all done it -- and they where by no means "special," in the top 10% of their class, etc.

Contrary to popular belief, once you get into a firm, the law school you went to means little to nothing. What makes or breaks your chance at partnership is your ability to bring in clients and the quality of your work. In reality, law school only *helps* you get that first job, and there are many small/medium sized firms with partnership tracks and great salaries out there. I guarantee you law firms would take an Albany Law School grad with a book of work he can bring in and not look twice at the school on his resume.


i think most of the ppl commenting arent 0L's but okay sure. are you actually TRYING to get these jobs right now? some ppl on these boards are, and it is tough. congrats to your brother though - did he do it ITE? if so, WOW, i think ppl will want to take some tips from him...he certainly isnt the norm. if he didnt do it ITE, well then thats a different world we're talking about.

interesting thing i just noticed, most of your family is in law. i wonder if that has anything to do w/ their overall success...you know, the whole networking and connections business that matters so much lol.

as far as i can tell, on TLS, it doesnt seem to be "popular belief" that your law school matters a lot outside of your first job. it is just that the law school really determines what first job you can get (and subsequently your 2nd).

and are we resorting to anecdotal evidence again? i mean, i hate statistics w/ a passion akin to benjamin disraeli's, but virtually all anecdotal evidence = crap (excluding tips we could learn i.e. maybe how your brother accomplished what he did).


The majority of people on these forums often giving their opinion are in fact 0Ls / 1Ls.

I'm new to forums in general, so I'm unfamiliar with the acronym ITE -- what does this stand for?

You are correct that most of my immediate family is in law, but they had no help on their way up. My uncle and father did it completely on their own. The summer before my brother began law school, my dad was able to get him an internship at his current law firm (this obviously was a connection) basically moving boxes from point A to point B. The reason this connection existed was the founding partner of this particular firm also went to Albany Law and graduated with my father (another success story). Over my brother's three year stint in law school, he continued to take summer internships with this firm, and excelled beyond the many other summer associates hailing from more prestigious schools (Fordham, NYU, etc). This is why after he graduated he was offered the job and took it. While the initial connection was made from my father, my brother worked his ass off and killed for four years to get this job.

If you guys have more specific questions for my brother, though, I'd be happy to forward any questions you have to him and post the responses =)
Last edited by icydash on Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

icydash
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Re: If You Want to be an Corporate Attorney in BigLaw...

Postby icydash » Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:51 pm

Na_Swatch wrote:
icydash wrote:My brother, coming out of Albany law school, got a job in a medium NYC corporate law/litigation firm-- starting salary ABOVE big law.

These kinds of jobs exist all over -- most of you guys just don't know it because you're 0Ls speculating. I know it because my father, who is a senior partner at a firm for over 30 years in NYC (also from Albany Law School), my uncle whose now a judge (St. Johns Law School), and many other partners in my dads firm (Hofstra grads, Brooklyn Law School grads, Loyola grads, etc) have all done it -- and they where by no means "special," in the top 10% of their class, etc.

Contrary to popular belief, once you get into a firm, the law school you went to means little to nothing. What makes or breaks your chance at partnership is your ability to bring in clients and the quality of your work. In reality, law school only *helps* you get that first job, and there are many small/medium sized firms with partnership tracks and great salaries out there. I guarantee you law firms would take an Albany Law School grad with a book of work he can bring in and not look twice at the school on his resume.


What is the flaw in this reasoning?

Ans: Atypical or unreliable data from a small sample size. The job your saying your brother has seems much more related to the fact that your father is a senior partner than in the fact that he graduated from Albany.

The partners your talking about (from Hofstra, Brooklyn, etc..) graduated decades ago and thus is completely unreliable compared to graduates today. Its a totally diff system now.


What is the flaw in this reasoning?

Ans: Bad assumption making.

The firm my brother works for is not the same firm that my father is a senior partner in. My dad was able to help him initially through a connection with an Albany grad he know from when he was a student, but my brother worked summer internships for four years (beginning before law school started) to get his position in the firm.
Last edited by icydash on Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

msbeautifulbasham
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Re: If You Want to be an Corporate Attorney in BigLaw...

Postby msbeautifulbasham » Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:58 pm

lawduder wrote:dumb thread

agree. Pretty douchey...

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Na_Swatch
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Re: If You Want to be an Corporate Attorney in BigLaw...

Postby Na_Swatch » Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:24 pm

icydash wrote:
Na_Swatch wrote:
icydash wrote:My brother, coming out of Albany law school, got a job in a medium NYC/Dallas corporate law/litigation firm-- starting salary: 175k. That's ABOVE big law.

These kinds of jobs exist all over -- most of you guys just don't know it because you're 0Ls speculating. I know it because my father, who is a senior partner at a firm for over 30 years in NYC (also from Albany Law School), my uncle whose now a judge (St. Johns Law School), and many other partners in my dads firm (Hofstra grads, Brooklyn Law School grads, Loyola grads, etc) have all done it -- and they where by no means "special," in the top 10% of their class, etc.

Contrary to popular belief, once you get into a firm, the law school you went to means little to nothing. What makes or breaks your chance at partnership is your ability to bring in clients and the quality of your work. In reality, law school only *helps* you get that first job, and there are many small/medium sized firms with partnership tracks and great salaries out there. I guarantee you law firms would take an Albany Law School grad with a book of work he can bring in and not look twice at the school on his resume.


What is the flaw in this reasoning?

Ans: Atypical or unreliable data from a small sample size. The job your saying your brother has seems much more related to the fact that your father is a senior partner than in the fact that he graduated from Albany.

The partners your talking about (from Hofstra, Brooklyn, etc..) graduated decades ago and thus is completely unreliable compared to graduates today. Its a totally diff system now.


What is the flaw in this reasoning?

Ans: Bad assumption making.

The firm my brother works for is not the same firm that my father is a senior partner in. My dad was able to help him initially through a connection with an Albany grad he know from when he was a student, but my brother worked summer internships for four years (beginning before law school started) to get his position in the firm.


This is the definition of connections. Thanks for making my case even more solid.




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