Cuban a significant URM boost?

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
User avatar
DeeCee
Posts: 1352
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:09 am

Re: Cuban a significant URM boost?

Postby DeeCee » Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:33 pm

oh here we go....

My mom's side is Cuban, but I talked about my socioeconomic status more so than being Cuban, which has also had an influence on my life.

Check it off and talk about your life experiences. End of story.

User avatar
patrickd139
Posts: 2883
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:53 pm

Re: Cuban a significant URM boost?

Postby patrickd139 » Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:33 pm

Came here expecting discussion about Mark Cuban's URM boost. Disappointed.

User avatar
FalafelWaffle
Posts: 286
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:07 pm

Re: Cuban a significant URM boost?

Postby FalafelWaffle » Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:34 pm

chimp wrote:
Seoulless wrote:
chimp wrote:Dude what are you trying to prove here? There are plenty of MX/PR Latinos who grew up privileged who probably receive the URM "boost" and plenty of Cubans who have had to work for every damn thing and do not come from privileged backgrounds who may receive a slight "boost" but nothing compared to the URM groups. Just because Cubans tend to be relatively well off as a whole does not mean you should be making hasty generalizations about OP or any other Cuban for that matter. Get a life.



Yeah you're right - I'm the one checking off my race to get a boost in admissions. I need a life.

And do you realize how your logic above only reinforces my point? Using your logic, then white people should get a boost because after all, there are white people who don't come from privileged backgrounds.

That kind of logic just reinforces the notion that those who have to check off their race aren't otherwise qualified. I mean come on, this kind of reasoning is the crap they test for on the LSATs.


LOL you clearly misread my post. I said that you cannot make a generalization about OP based on your info. The info you cited is probably why Cubans historically DON'T receive a URM boost, but that doesn't mean a Cuban can't write a killer diversity statement about what he/she would bring to an incoming law school class (which is clearly what OP did) to try and improve their chances at admission.


That's extremely presumptuous. How do you know OP's background? If OP comes from a poor family, I say he deserves a boost more than a middle class Mexican. Also, not all Cubans are white (though almost all of the wealthy ones are). OP could be African American or mestizo.

User avatar
FalafelWaffle
Posts: 286
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:07 pm

Re: Cuban a significant URM boost?

Postby FalafelWaffle » Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:35 pm

Seoulless wrote:
chimp wrote:
LOL you clearly misread my post. I said that you cannot make a generalization about OP based on your info. The info you cited is probably why Cubans historically DON'T receive a URM boost, but that doesn't mean a Cuban can't write a killer diversity statement about what he/she would bring to an incoming law school class (which is clearly what OP did) to try and improve their chances at admission.


Your reply was considered in conjunction with this:

chimp wrote:

No problem. I do not believe it played any factor whatsoever in my cycle other than getting me on the Michigan waitlist when I probably would have been rejected otherwise.

Seeing as how I just created an account yesterday, how could it hurt to give future Cuban applicants a little info?

Future Cuban applicants, if you have decent numbers and Michigan gives you a fee waiver, APPLY!



So in other words, you support taking advantage of a system designed to help those who are underrepresented in order to help those who are overrepresented.

You admit that in your opinion, you got a tiny but not insignificant boost.

Your logic for doing so as it could only possibly be relevant to my post is that its possible that the individual himself is not privileged. After all, I made no reference to individual status, only group status which is what matters here.


I have no qualms about checking off my ethnicity and writing a diversity statement. Everything I wrote was entirely truthful, it's up to Admissions to decide what's important. Lay the blame there.

BillsFan9907
Posts: 1381
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:28 am

Re: Cuban a significant URM boost?

Postby BillsFan9907 » Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:01 am

I think at this point the OP has been given more than enough relevant information.
Last edited by BillsFan9907 on Tue Dec 23, 2014 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
FalafelWaffle
Posts: 286
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:07 pm

Re: Cuban a significant URM boost?

Postby FalafelWaffle » Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:15 am

Seoulless wrote:
FalafelWaffle wrote:I really and truly understand why some people do not sympathize with people not being able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, I think it's either a very privileged or ignorant political belief.

If you're white, middle class, male, raised in a stable home environment with loving and supportive parents, have no mental or physical disabilities, and are of average or above average intelligence, then I agree entirely, you have almost NO excuse to fail at life.

It's when you change one or more variables that the disadvantages and inequalities come in--alternate gender, race, class, upbringing, disability, intelligence, completely different story.


I don't see why it's either privileged or ignorant for a Cuban (who would be subject to the same institutionalized racism as other Latinos) or a Jew (who arguably, on a global level, has experienced worse institutionalized racism than any other) to expect others to get to where they are by doing the same thing they did instead of seeking to even out the playing field due to external constraints.

If Class were the causative factor for under-performance, then Jews and Cubans wouldn't have succeeded (though arguably less so for Cubans as they were even outperforming the US in economic stats before 1959).


I'm not saying Class is a more significant causative factor, but that the boost one gets from URM should diminish as one's class status goes up--and I say that because there are a finite number of seats to be given out, and schools should parse who needs advantages the most. If I move to the Deep South, I might face institutionalized racism, but that has little bearing on the fact that I have significant advantages and connections in my hometown, Miami. Furthermore, since I am white as milk (of Spanish descent) and have no Hispanic facial features to speak of, and the fact that I have no accent because I learned English and Spanish concurrently, I experience no racism or adversity based on my appearance-that would only occur when people see my very obviously Hispanic name.

I'm not sure what you mean by your last line. I don't know much about the Jews, but Cubans, as you were correct in pointing out, were coming here long before 1959 (Castro is not an outlier, the entire 20th century was pretty much a dreary parade of dictators, difference being only Castro destroyed private industry). The Cubans who came here in 1959 (and thus the ones mentioned in the various studies as being successful) were overwhelmingly white, middle class of Spanish descent-they were the ones mad at Castro for the loss of their property and businesses. Most of them could afford to leave (although didn't manage to transfer any of their wealth to the U.S., like my family), and were already well-educated. They are very distinct from later waves, like the Marielitos-who were generally nonwhite and more poorly educated. When you talk about Cubans, you have to keep in mind that they are not all the same-much like there are significant race/class dynamics in this country, they existed in Cuba, and to an extent transferred over. Look at the list of highly successful Cubans-Hispanic is an ethnicity not a race, so look at the races--outliers like Marco Rubio who came from a later migration wave and some celebrities aside, they're mostly white.

User avatar
FalafelWaffle
Posts: 286
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:07 pm

Re: Cuban a significant URM boost?

Postby FalafelWaffle » Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:23 am

FalafelWaffle wrote:
Seoulless wrote:
FalafelWaffle wrote:I really and truly understand why some people do not sympathize with people not being able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, I think it's either a very privileged or ignorant political belief.

If you're white, middle class, male, raised in a stable home environment with loving and supportive parents, have no mental or physical disabilities, and are of average or above average intelligence, then I agree entirely, you have almost NO excuse to fail at life.

It's when you change one or more variables that the disadvantages and inequalities come in--alternate gender, race, class, upbringing, disability, intelligence, completely different story.


I don't see why it's either privileged or ignorant for a Cuban (who would be subject to the same institutionalized racism as other Latinos) or a Jew (who arguably, on a global level, has experienced worse institutionalized racism than any other) to expect others to get to where they are by doing the same thing they did instead of seeking to even out the playing field due to external constraints.

If Class were the causative factor for under-performance, then Jews and Cubans wouldn't have succeeded (though arguably less so for Cubans as they were even outperforming the US in economic stats before 1959).


I'm not saying Class is a more significant causative factor, but that the boost one gets from URM should diminish as one's class status goes up--and I say that because there are a finite number of seats to be given out, and schools should parse who needs advantages the most. If I move to the Deep South, I might face institutionalized racism, but that has little bearing on the fact that I have significant advantages and connections in my hometown, Miami. Furthermore, since I am white as milk (of Spanish descent) and have no Hispanic facial features to speak of, and the fact that I have no accent because I learned English and Spanish concurrently, I experience no racism or adversity based on my appearance-that would only occur when people see my very obviously Hispanic name.

I'm not sure what you mean by your last line. I don't know much about the Jews, but Cubans, as you were correct in pointing out, were coming here long before 1959 (Castro is not an outlier, the entire 20th century was pretty much a dreary parade of dictators, difference being only Castro destroyed private industry). The Cubans who came here in 1959 (and thus the ones mentioned in the various studies as being successful) were overwhelmingly white, middle class of Spanish descent-they were the ones mad at Castro for the loss of their property and businesses. Most of them could afford to leave (although didn't manage to transfer any of their wealth to the U.S., like my family), and were already well-educated. They are very distinct from later waves, like the Marielitos-who were generally nonwhite and more poorly educated. When you talk about Cubans, you have to keep in mind that they are not all the same-much like there are significant race/class dynamics in this country, they existed in Cuba, and to an extent transferred over. Look at the list of highly successful Cubans-Hispanic is an ethnicity not a race, so look at the races--outliers like Marco Rubio who came from a later migration wave and some celebrities aside, they're mostly white.


Point was it's disingenuous to say that Cubans tend to be more successful. They do, but that refers mostly to a very specific immigration wave and race. If you control for that specific group I think you'd find that the rest of the Cuban population is comparable to the Puerto Ricans/Mexicans. It's easy to get this perception from the media that all Cubans are wealthy loudmouth Republicans, and there is a strong contingent of that, but it's not all there is. So when you say that Cubans resent PR/Mexicans getting a URM boost because they didn't need it, the most privileged of the Cubans would agree, but that's hardly the entire story. Biased sample if there ever was one.

User avatar
canes
Posts: 132
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:02 pm

Re: Cuban a significant URM boost?

Postby canes » Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:56 am

.
Last edited by canes on Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BillsFan9907
Posts: 1381
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:28 am

Re: Cuban a significant URM boost?

Postby BillsFan9907 » Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:09 am

Definitely let me know what happens though. Now I am really curious.
Last edited by BillsFan9907 on Tue Dec 23, 2014 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BillsFan9907
Posts: 1381
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:28 am

Re: Cuban a significant URM boost?

Postby BillsFan9907 » Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:43 am

PM Sent!
Last edited by BillsFan9907 on Tue Dec 23, 2014 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
canes
Posts: 132
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:02 pm

Re: Cuban a significant URM boost?

Postby canes » Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:33 pm

All of these arguments and hypothetical situations (we're really talking 1930s?) are useless to any applicants and have been done hundreds of times in this forum. None of us are going to have an original thought regarding race relations and the role of ethnicity in law school admissions.

I don't think the point of this thread was to say, "Hey, look at me, I'm entitled to a better chance of admission because I'm _________." I found TLS to be pretty much useless regarding this question, because every one of these threads devolves into this nonsense. Cubans and other non-URM Latinos are often confused as to what their reaches or targets should be, not knowing how their status will be perceived by admissions committees. Since none of us know what each school's committees are looking for when filling out their class, anecdotal evidence regarding applicants who got into some places they shouldn't have or got exactly what their numbers suggested, I think, is the only kind of input that would be of any value to anyone reading this.

Again, it's not a matter of entitlement, but one of wanting to know about a critical element of your admissions cycle.

071816
Posts: 5511
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:06 pm

Re: Cuban a significant URM boost?

Postby 071816 » Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:54 pm

Seoulless wrote:
FalafelWaffle wrote:
I have no qualms about checking off my ethnicity and writing a diversity statement. Everything I wrote was entirely truthful, it's up to Admissions to decide what's important. Lay the blame there.



So then let me ask you a counter factual. Let's say its the 1930's and theoretically there was no way to determine race in college admissions aside from checking off a box. You would know in advance that being white obviously has an advantage over being black due to racism. Would you check off white?



Dude calm the fuck down. Stop trying to have philosophical arguments about the way admissions should be and quit posting if you aren't going to offer anything useful. I'm calling it how I see it and that's that. End of story. If you have qualms about the admissions process berating people in this forum is not the right way to go about addressing them.

AztecaRex
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:34 pm

Re: Cuban a significant URM boost?

Postby AztecaRex » Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:08 pm

This is anecdotal evidence, but a Cuban acquaintance of mine got into University of Chicago with a high GPA, a 165 LSAT, and average softs out of undergrad. So at least in certain instances, I'd say Cubans do get a decent boost.

drummerboy
Posts: 512
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:42 pm

Re: Cuban a significant URM boost?

Postby drummerboy » Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:32 pm

i still think the gentleman with the 165 had excellent stats worthy of any excellent school. not necessarily a boost.if you checl lsn youll see that despite similar grades/ lsat, not every cuban hispanic got a boost

BillsFan9907
Posts: 1381
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:28 am

Re: Cuban a significant URM boost?

Postby BillsFan9907 » Sat Apr 02, 2011 3:04 pm

Yeah I checked the link. It wasn't entirely useful.
Last edited by BillsFan9907 on Tue Dec 23, 2014 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

071816
Posts: 5511
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:06 pm

Re: Cuban a significant URM boost?

Postby 071816 » Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:16 pm

Haha yes I did and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I don't see how being honest while filling out an application is a bad thing.

Btw some troll on a message board making incoherent comments =/= MLK

Sorry dude. It's kind if hard to take you seriously right about now.

AztecaRex
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:34 pm

Re: Cuban a significant URM boost?

Postby AztecaRex » Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:44 pm

drummerboy wrote:i still think the gentleman with the 165 had excellent stats worthy of any excellent school. not necessarily a boost.if you checl lsn youll see that despite similar grades/ lsat, not every cuban hispanic got a boost


I'm not sure if you're referring to the Cubano in my example, or the poster slightly above me with essentially the same numbers, but if you're referring to my example, I don't see how you could argue that his average softs combined with a LSAT several points below Chicago's 25th percentile got him an acceptance unless he got some kind of boost. I never said that every cuban hispanic gets a boost, but contrary to popular belief, I've seen Mexican and Puerto Rican applicants who never got any discernable boost either. So really, I think the URM boost (for Latinos anyway), is much more nebulous than the common "Mexican/PR=URM, any other Latino does not" mindset on this site indicates.

CMDantes
Posts: 420
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:37 pm

Re: Cuban a significant URM boost?

Postby CMDantes » Sat Apr 02, 2011 5:13 pm

This has turned into a terrible thread.

User avatar
DeeCee
Posts: 1352
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:09 am

Re: Cuban a significant URM boost?

Postby DeeCee » Sat Apr 02, 2011 5:23 pm

CMDantes wrote:This has turned into a terrible thread.


agreed. I'm surprised it hasn't been locked for getting into URM/AA issues yet.
IBTL

BillsFan9907
Posts: 1381
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:28 am

Re: Cuban a significant URM boost?

Postby BillsFan9907 » Sat Apr 02, 2011 7:02 pm

Broken Link!
Last edited by BillsFan9907 on Tue Dec 23, 2014 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

071816
Posts: 5511
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:06 pm

Re: Cuban a significant URM boost?

Postby 071816 » Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:56 pm

CMDantes wrote:This has turned into a terrible thread.


+1

User avatar
canes
Posts: 132
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:02 pm

Re: Cuban a significant URM boost?

Postby canes » Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:26 pm

Seoulless wrote:There's nothing more for me to say on this matter.

Thank God.

071816
Posts: 5511
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:06 pm

Re: Cuban a significant URM boost?

Postby 071816 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:39 pm

canes wrote:
Seoulless wrote:There's nothing more for me to say on this matter.

Thank God.


+1,000,000




Return to “Law School Admissions Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], MSNbot Media and 7 guests