Does Native American count as URM and should I file as one?

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PrayingforHYS
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Does Native American count as URM and should I file as one?

Postby PrayingforHYS » Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:56 pm

So, I'm not exactly sure what the extent of my native-american heritage is, but I KNOW that I do have native-american ancestors, and I'm pretty sure that my grandmother could prove the documentation if needed.

Anyway, is it worth checking the URM box if it was, say, my great-grandmother that was native american? I doubt that a law school expects you to be involved in your URM community if you check the box (or do they?), but just being a URM would obviously help...

I don't know -- i'm just curious if anyone has any empirical evidence to sway me one way or the other or any advice.

I don't really look at this as a scam, because, well, it's not. If I can prove my native american heritage, then shouldn't I take advantage of the perks?

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gwuorbust
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Re: Does Native American count as URM and should I file as one?

Postby gwuorbust » Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:59 pm

my understanding is that native american is the best type of URM status, some have reported like an 8 point LSAT boost. It may be less than 8, but it is a very good boost. Not looking into it would be a very bad mistake.

that being said, I think you need documentation to prove your heritage. If you have it then you should be good to go.

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Anastasia Dee Dualla
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Re: Does Native American count as URM and should I file as one?

Postby Anastasia Dee Dualla » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:00 pm

You can check the box.

Sometimes they expect documentation, and they DO expect you to demonstrate some involvement (past or whatever). Also, from what I have been reading on this they typically prefer a DS if you check NA.

I think if you are pulling this out just for law school admissions, you should probably just check what you identified with before it came up that there was a boost for NA.

Best of luck either way.

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Anastasia Dee Dualla
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Re: Does Native American count as URM and should I file as one?

Postby Anastasia Dee Dualla » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:01 pm

Nightrunner wrote:*deep sigh*


I feel you.

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Rand M.
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Re: Does Native American count as a URM?

Postby Rand M. » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:02 pm

It definitely counts if you can prove tribal affiliation and all of that. NA seems to be the one type of URM where they really expect you to "show" it. Because it is one of the easier ones to find somewhere in your background without ever really living it, Law Schools aren't really all that inclined to just dish out a bump for anyone who claims it. Most of the times schools are generally looking for a sense that you are connected and identify with your URM community to a greater extent than just having some genetic link. It really is more of a cultural thing, especially with Native Americans. Some argue NA get the biggest "bump" of all if they are actually affiliated and the whole nine. In your case, it doesn't seem like its in the cards. However, you are free to check whatever box you wish.

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Rand M.
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Re: Does Native American count as URM and should I file as one?

Postby Rand M. » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:03 pm

Anastasia Dee Dualla wrote:
Nightrunner wrote:*deep sigh*


I feel you.


+too many to count.

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PrayingforHYS
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Re: Does Native American count as URM and should I file as one?

Postby PrayingforHYS » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:06 pm

Rand M. wrote:
Anastasia Dee Dualla wrote:
Nightrunner wrote:*deep sigh*


I feel you.


+too many to count.


you guys must be proud of all the substance you bring to these boards in your posts. Thanks for the help (though I do appreciate your post before this one, Rand. Thank you)

Nightrunner wrote:*deep sigh*


this was my expected response from these boards, but at the same time, I'd be a fool not to at least look into this, correct?

Thus, I turn to the omniscient posters at TLS for help. I just want to explore all angles before I go along checking the "white" box..
Last edited by PrayingforHYS on Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dbt
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Re: Does Native American count as URM and should I file as one?

Postby dbt » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:08 pm

if you've got the actual documentation (tribal affiliation card) or can get one, do it. It's not only the best URM; it's basically a golden ticket (think 155+ goes to Yale golden ticket). It's harder to get a tribal affiliation card than you think and I would imagine schools won't pay it much attention (i.e. won't take your claim seriously) without the card, since everyone "has an Indian ancestor."

I tend to agree with the sentiment that you need to have some sort of affiliation with a tribe (actually do something such that being a Native American has made a difference in your life), but when it comes down to it what matters are those LSAC stats. If you're legit Native American, then you've got a huge advantage.

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JollyGreenGiant
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Re: Does Native American count as URM and should I file as one?

Postby JollyGreenGiant » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:09 pm

Obviously NA is an URM.

However, as a decent human being I think you shouldn't check the box. But that is just my personal preference. You don't know what tribe you are in. You don't identify with the culture in any way. You don't know how much NA you are. You are simply using it while giving absolutely nothing back.

Before I sound like a bitter white kid that doesn't get to use any URM perks.. I'd like to point out that I am a little bit more than 1/8th NA (probably around 1/6th or so due to both grandparents on one side).

But, then again, it's your decision.

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dbt
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Re: Does Native American count as URM and should I file as one?

Postby dbt » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:15 pm

Nightrunner wrote:You want substance? Here you go, Chief.

Law Schools graduate thousands of "Native American" law students each year, yet the number of practicing attorneys who identify as Native Americans grow by a very tiny number. This is due to ethnic fraud (i.e. boxcheckers; e.g. you).

If you have never, at any point in your life, identified as a Native American, then checking that box would be unethical on every possible level. If you don't know what tribe you're "from," if you are (as you admit) tentatively presuming that someone in your family tree might be able to vouch for you, and know nothing about Native culture, then you have as much business checking that box as I would checking "black."

Substantial enough?


is this true? I don't think it is. At NYU for instance, we have something like 3 Native Americans in the class. That's why NA is a huge URM. True, thousands of kids say "I'm Native American," and perhaps even many of them check that box, but something else is at play, since LSAC reports very few true Native Americans going through law school. I really think it comes down to the card, which separates the legit from the frauds. Even then, true Native Americans may not have been "influenced" by their heritage at all, but the same might be said for other minorities (and AA in particular).

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KibblesAndVick
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Re: Does Native American count as URM and should I file as one?

Postby KibblesAndVick » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:16 pm

You seem to be cognizant of why many people (including admissions officers and the Native American community I'd imagine) would look down on this. If you've already done away with any moral qualms you might be having, you should keep in mind that a lot of folks on TLS would do far more questionable things for 8 additional LSAT points :o .

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PrayingforHYS
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Re: Does Native American count as URM and should I file as one?

Postby PrayingforHYS » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:17 pm

JollyGreenGiant wrote:Obviously NA is an URM.

However, as a decent human being I think you shouldn't check the box. But that is just my personal preference. You don't know what tribe you are in. You don't identify with the culture in any way. You don't know how much NA you are. You are simply using it while giving absolutely nothing back.

Before I sound like a bitter white kid that doesn't get to use any URM perks.. I'd like to point out that I am a little bit more than 1/8th NA (probably around 1/6th or so due to both grandparents on one side).

But, then again, it's your decision.


see, I pretty much agree completely with your assessment. Unfortunately, a few other people couldn't get off of their high horse to give legitimate advice/knowledge, but, again, what you said is just about how I feel.

I just want to exhaust any potentially rewarding prospects for admission. Also, again, I don't know the extent of my lineage, and if it's something obscure like great-great-uncle or something like that, then not only would it probably not be worth it, but I likely wouldn't pursue that end anyway.

I pretty much just wanted knowledge on NA's as URMs in general -- and apparently it's a "gold mine" lol. Regardless, you can't scoff at someone b/c they're trying to utilize something real to their advantage (it's not like i'm claiming to be AA when I'm white), but at the same time, I just want to know what my options are.

Hell, I can check NA, have a certificate of NA blood, and they may still say "ok, well, he filled out 'white' on his UG app, so let's just proceed from there"

I just want to know my options..

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JollyGreenGiant
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Re: Does Native American count as URM and should I file as one?

Postby JollyGreenGiant » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:18 pm

dbt wrote:
is this true? I don't think it is.

It's probably more true than saying that a 155+ LSAT is good enough for a NA to get into Yale. :lol:

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PrayingforHYS
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Re: Does Native American count as URM and should I file as one?

Postby PrayingforHYS » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:19 pm

Nightrunner wrote:You want substance? Here you go, Chief.



pun intended? lol

DukeHopeful
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Re: Does Native American count as URM and should I file as one?

Postby DukeHopeful » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:19 pm

JollyGreenGiant wrote:Obviously NA is an URM.

However, as a decent human being I think you shouldn't check the box. But that is just my personal preference. You don't know what tribe you are in. You don't identify with the culture in any way. You don't know how much NA you are. You are simply using it while giving absolutely nothing back.

Before I sound like a bitter white kid that doesn't get to use any URM perks.. I'd like to point out that I am a little bit more than 1/8th NA (probably around 1/6th or so due to both grandparents on one side).

But, then again, it's your decision.


I'm guessing you mean both grandparents were partial NA? If both gparents on one side were NA, then that would make your parent of the side NA, meaning you'd be at least half, which is pretty substantial. 1/8 would be if one grandparent was 1/2 NA.

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PrayingforHYS
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Re: Does Native American count as URM and should I file as one?

Postby PrayingforHYS » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:22 pm

Nightrunner wrote:You want substance? Here you go, Chief.

Law Schools graduate thousands of "Native American" law students each year, yet the number of practicing attorneys who identify as Native Americans grow by a very tiny number. This is due to ethnic fraud (i.e. boxcheckers; e.g. you).

If you have never, at any point in your life, identified as a Native American, then checking that box would be unethical on every possible level. If you don't know what tribe you're "from," if you are (as you admit) tentatively presuming that someone in your family tree might be able to vouch for you, and know nothing about Native culture, then you have as much business checking that box as I would checking "black."

Substantial enough?


I'm pretty much on board with what you're saying. Immoral to file as a NA with no background knowledge of your ancestry or tribe? Probably. Have countless others probably done even more immoral things on their apps? Sure. Does that make it ok? Certainly not, but if law schools' only requirement for checking NA is the blood, then it's perfectly legitimate to do so. If their requirements are some kind of involvement in the community, then obviously I wouldn't go ahead and check the box.

I'm not even saying I'd check it even if all they require is blood anyway...I just wanted some background info.

In fact, I'd go ahead and say that it's very unlikely I'd check even if all they required was a blood card (which I could obtain), but I'd still like to make an informed decision.

I appreciate the feedback so far.
Last edited by PrayingforHYS on Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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JollyGreenGiant
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Re: Does Native American count as URM and should I file as one?

Postby JollyGreenGiant » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:22 pm

DukeHopeful wrote:
JollyGreenGiant wrote:Obviously NA is an URM.

However, as a decent human being I think you shouldn't check the box. But that is just my personal preference. You don't know what tribe you are in. You don't identify with the culture in any way. You don't know how much NA you are. You are simply using it while giving absolutely nothing back.

Before I sound like a bitter white kid that doesn't get to use any URM perks.. I'd like to point out that I am a little bit more than 1/8th NA (probably around 1/6th or so due to both grandparents on one side).

But, then again, it's your decision.


I'm guessing you mean both grandparents were partial NA? If both gparents on one side were NA, then that would make your parent of the side NA, meaning you'd be at least half, which is pretty substantial. 1/8 would be if one grandparent was 1/2 NA.



Well, I know for a fact one of my grandparents (pa) was 1/2. My grandma had some NA in her and it was 1/2 but I don't think it was a miniscule amount either. Therefore, I took a random shot in the dark and said a 1/6th.

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JollyGreenGiant
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Re: Does Native American count as URM and should I file as one?

Postby JollyGreenGiant » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:23 pm

Nightrunner wrote:Blood quantum is pretty tricky, especially in tribes who interbred early (e.g. many of the northern midwest tribes were intermarrying with the French before the U.S. even existed).

Yesssssir.. my grandma was French-Canadian and Native American. That's why I made up her section of NA. I don't think anyone in my family knows just how much NA and how much French she was.

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PrayingforHYS
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Re: Does Native American count as URM and should I file as one?

Postby PrayingforHYS » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:26 pm

Nightrunner wrote:
PrayingforHYS wrote:
Nightrunner wrote:You want substance? Here you go, Chief.

Law Schools graduate thousands of "Native American" law students each year, yet the number of practicing attorneys who identify as Native Americans grow by a very tiny number. This is due to ethnic fraud (i.e. boxcheckers; e.g. you).

If you have never, at any point in your life, identified as a Native American, then checking that box would be unethical on every possible level. If you don't know what tribe you're "from," if you are (as you admit) tentatively presuming that someone in your family tree might be able to vouch for you, and know nothing about Native culture, then you have as much business checking that box as I would checking "black."

Substantial enough?


I'm pretty much on board with what you're saying. Immoral to file as a NA with no background knowledge of your ancestry or tribe? Probably. Have countless others probably done even more immoral things on their apps? Sure. Does that make it ok? Certainly not, but if law schools' only requirement for checking NA is the blood, then it's perfectly legitimate to do so. If their requirements are some kind of involvement in the community, then obviously I wouldn't go ahead and check it anyway.

I'm not even saying I'll check it if all they require is blood anyway...I just want some background.


You got background, straight from the Native's mouth. If you've already made up your damn mind, quit wasting our time.


I consider my mind made up when I'm 100% behind a decision, which I haven't reached yet. I appreciate your help so far, but I don't believe that anybody is forcing you to read and respond in this thread, so I'm sorry if you're opting to waste your own time here.

DukeHopeful
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Re: Does Native American count as URM and should I file as one?

Postby DukeHopeful » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:26 pm

JollyGreenGiant wrote:Well, I know for a fact one of my grandparents (pa) was 1/2. My grandma had some NA in her and it was 1/2 but I don't think it was a miniscule amount either. Therefore, I took a random shot in the dark and said a 1/6th.


Oh ok, yeah that makes sense. When I read it, I thought you were actually someone who would have benefited from the NA status, which I thought was a bit ironic ITT.

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JollyGreenGiant
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Re: Does Native American count as URM and should I file as one?

Postby JollyGreenGiant » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:29 pm

Nightrunner wrote:What are you looking for, OP? You know it is unethical, and admit as much...do you want a little angel and a little devil to appear on your shoulders and talk you through it?

+1

At least he knows that every stereotypical lawyer joke applies correctly to him. :)

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PrayingforHYS
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Re: Does Native American count as URM and should I file as one?

Postby PrayingforHYS » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:33 pm

Nightrunner wrote:What are you looking for, OP? You know it is unethical, and admit as much...do you want a little angel and a little devil to appear on your shoulders and talk you through it?


See, I don't know it's unethical. If all a law school requires is a blood certificate, then it's perfectly legitimate. I understand your offense to the notion given your prominent display of native americanism, but if I'm merely following the application rules, then what's unethical about it? You, personally, may frown upon it, but I had a friend whose Native-American status was accepted by Yale UG when he was 3/64 native american with a blood card...so you never know.

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Anastasia Dee Dualla
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Re: Does Native American count as URM and should I file as one?

Postby Anastasia Dee Dualla » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:36 pm

.
Last edited by Anastasia Dee Dualla on Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dbt
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Re: Does Native American count as URM and should I file as one?

Postby dbt » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:38 pm

JollyGreenGiant wrote:
dbt wrote:
is this true? I don't think it is.

It's probably more true than saying that a 155+ LSAT is good enough for a NA to get into Yale. :lol:


lol I stand by it. 155 may be a little low, but I would definitely think that a 158-160/good GPA Native American would be a contender for Yale.

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badfish
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Re: Does Native American count as URM and should I file as one?

Postby badfish » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:38 pm

In response to OP yes and yes.

In response to the people saying OP shouldn't file as NA. While I sympathize with you I think ICE T has TCR: "Don't hate the player, hate the game".




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