LSAT correlates to success in law school

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Unitas
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby Unitas » Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:49 pm

phoenix323 wrote:
Kakarot wrote:
ValiantVic wrote:From what I heard from the Dean at NU the LSAT has a good correlation with one's success in the first semester of law school, that's it. It can't even be projected to one's law school career and of course obviously wouldn't have any bearing on one's career as an attorney.


That isn't the entire part of it. The LSAT has the best correlation of any available test with one's success in the first semester of law school. The best correlation of success as a law student over the three years is success in the first semester of law school.


Just curious, what other tests are there?


Technically, any standardized test could be substituted for the LSAT, even the SATs. They just would have more of a random relationship, because they do not test, as well as the LSAT, what is needed for Law School. I saw a study a while ago about the relathionship between SAT LSAT and 1L performance on the LSAC website. I may look for it later, because it said basically what I just said.

Also if you have any ideas for a standardized test everyone could take that would have a greater correlation with law school I would call up LSAC with it..
Last edited by Unitas on Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

hotdoglaw
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby hotdoglaw » Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:51 pm

hotdoglaw wrote:
If the LSAT correlates to the success an applicant will have in law school and, as can be seen by looking at nearly any chart on LSN, URMs are often admitted with a far lower LSAT score than other applicants, does this not result in URMs being placed in an environment where they will have a lot of difficulty succeeding and be seriously disadvantaged?


wow you fail at being subtle


What do you mean exactly?

hotdoglaw
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby hotdoglaw » Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:52 pm

Sorry, let's try that again

TigerBeer wrote:
hotdoglaw wrote:If the LSAT correlates to the success an applicant will have in law school and, as can be seen by looking at nearly any chart on LSN, URMs are often admitted with a far lower LSAT score than other applicants, does this not result in URMs being placed in an environment where they will have a lot of difficulty succeeding and be seriously disadvantaged?


wow you fail at being subtle


what do you mean?

AtticusFinch
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby AtticusFinch » Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:59 pm

He means it is politically incorrect to say that, if you read the conclusion in this study
http://www.law.ucla.edu/sander/systemic ... rfinal.pdf it seems to be a fair question.
AA is not as advantages to black law students as one might believe.

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Jules Winnfield
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby Jules Winnfield » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:30 pm

MTal wrote:Anyone supporting AA is a moral and intellectual degenerate. Just thought I'd throw that out there.


The only degenerate ITT is the one who is trolling on this website because he couldn't hack it in a "TTT" and is the epitome of personal and intellectual failure.

r6_philly
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby r6_philly » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:34 pm

MTal wrote:Anyone supporting AA is a moral and intellectual degenerate. Just thought I'd throw that out there.




I can't believe he called his own race moral and intellectual degenerate... :shock:

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Kohinoor
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby Kohinoor » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 pm

hotdoglaw wrote:If the LSAT correlates to the success an applicant will have in law school and, as can be seen by looking at nearly any chart on LSN, URMs are often admitted with a far lower LSAT score than other applicants, does this not result in URMs being placed in an environment where they will have a lot of difficulty succeeding and be seriously disadvantaged?

Considering that class rank is merely a signal for employers, I'm not sure how pronounced the disadvantage of being unlikely to grade onto law review is for us. With that thrown out, this idea of disadvantage has no basis in reality.

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Kohinoor
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby Kohinoor » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:44 pm

MURPH wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:--LinkRemoved--

Page 61 is where the results are found. While it shocking that 51% of black law students end up in the bottom 10%, it is what the LSAT predicts will happen.

Desert Fox,
On page 65 it shows that blacks are in the bottom decile less frequently at other schools (pg 61 is elite schools only). I suppose that the 14% in the bottom decile at historically minority colleges is because those colleges still attract mostly minorities.
I was pretty shocked at his conclusion "Perhaps most remarkably, a strong case can be made that in the legal education system as a whole, racial preferences end up producing fewer black lawyers each year than would be produced by a race-blind system.8 Affirmative action as currently practiced by the nation’s law schools does not, therefore, pass even the easiest test one can set. In systemic, objective terms, it hurts the group it is most designed to help."

I had heard that argument before but I never saw any data to back it up.

Take a look at the critiques of his argument. I believe that they take issue with that conclusion.

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T14_Scholly
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby T14_Scholly » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:49 pm

vanwinkle wrote: AAs at top law schools would often end up with worse grades than whites, but have...little discernable difference in real-world capability post-graduation.


I'll take your word for it.

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Jules Winnfield
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby Jules Winnfield » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:51 pm

T14_Scholly wrote:
vanwinkle wrote: AAs at top law schools would often end up with worse grades than whites, but have...little discernable difference in real-world capability post-graduation.


I'll take your word for it.


It makes sense...

AppsAbound
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby AppsAbound » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:53 pm

MTal wrote:Anyone supporting AA is a moral and intellectual degenerate. Just thought I'd throw that out there.



I am fairly certain that every top law school has some policy in place to ensure that they maintain a certain level of racial and ethnic diversity. I suppose that means that you would refuse to attend any of those institutions as a matter or principle. It's a shame, they could really benefit from enlightened views such as your own....

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MURPH
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby MURPH » Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:58 pm

Kohinoor wrote:
MURPH wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:--LinkRemoved--

Page 61 is where the results are found. While it shocking that 51% of black law students end up in the bottom 10%, it is what the LSAT predicts will happen.

Desert Fox,
On page 65 it shows that blacks are in the bottom decile less frequently at other schools (pg 61 is elite schools only). I suppose that the 14% in the bottom decile at historically minority colleges is because those colleges still attract mostly minorities.
I was pretty shocked at his conclusion "Perhaps most remarkably, a strong case can be made that in the legal education system as a whole, racial preferences end up producing fewer black lawyers each year than would be produced by a race-blind system.8 Affirmative action as currently practiced by the nation’s law schools does not, therefore, pass even the easiest test one can set. In systemic, objective terms, it hurts the group it is most designed to help."

I had heard that argument before but I never saw any data to back it up.

Take a look at the critiques of his argument. I believe that they take issue with that conclusion.
Do you have a link to the critiques?

eudaimondaimon
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby eudaimondaimon » Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:00 pm

AppsAbound wrote:
MTal wrote:Anyone supporting AA is a moral and intellectual degenerate. Just thought I'd throw that out there.



I am fairly certain that every top law school has some policy in place to ensure that they maintain a certain level of racial and ethnic diversity. I suppose that means that you would refuse to attend any of those institutions as a matter or principle. It's a shame, they could really benefit from enlightened views such as your own....


You're assuming that by AA he meant Affirmative Action. He could have just as easily been taking a cheap shot at you, AppsAbound. :lol:

/Also, don't feed the troll

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Jay-Electronica
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby Jay-Electronica » Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:09 pm

MTal wrote:Anyone supporting AA is a moral and intellectual degenerate. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Thats pretty rich coming from the guy who didnt have the intellect to hack it in law school and quit, and who is also know for being a bigot and trolling URM threads. Please, take the opportunity to GTFO and take your trolling elsewhere.

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Jules Winnfield
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby Jules Winnfield » Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:11 pm

Negrodamus wrote:
MTal wrote:Anyone supporting AA is a moral and intellectual degenerate. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Thats pretty rich coming from the guy who didnt have the intellect to hack it in law school and quit, and who is also know for being a bigot and trolling URM threads. Please, take the opportunity to GTFO and take your trolling elsewhere.



That's exactly what I told him.

And, yes, the boy's back, Negrodamus!
Last edited by Jules Winnfield on Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AppsAbound
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby AppsAbound » Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:11 pm

I know. I fell for the troll. Shame on me. :oops:

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Kohinoor
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby Kohinoor » Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:27 pm

MURPH wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
MURPH wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:--LinkRemoved--

Page 61 is where the results are found. While it shocking that 51% of black law students end up in the bottom 10%, it is what the LSAT predicts will happen.

Desert Fox,
On page 65 it shows that blacks are in the bottom decile less frequently at other schools (pg 61 is elite schools only). I suppose that the 14% in the bottom decile at historically minority colleges is because those colleges still attract mostly minorities.
I was pretty shocked at his conclusion "Perhaps most remarkably, a strong case can be made that in the legal education system as a whole, racial preferences end up producing fewer black lawyers each year than would be produced by a race-blind system.8 Affirmative action as currently practiced by the nation’s law schools does not, therefore, pass even the easiest test one can set. In systemic, objective terms, it hurts the group it is most designed to help."

I had heard that argument before but I never saw any data to back it up.

Take a look at the critiques of his argument. I believe that they take issue with that conclusion.
Do you have a link to the critiques?

http://www.law.ucla.edu/sander/

His site is pretty good generally about linking to critiques of his work.

--LinkRemoved--

Our own conclusion is that if affirmative action in admissions were eliminated, there would probably be a 25 to 30 percent decline in the numbers of African Americans entering the bar, not the rosy 8.8 percent improvement that he forecasts.

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Jules Winnfield
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby Jules Winnfield » Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:02 pm

Why do people hate seeing minorities in college and advanced degrees programs? If you were to listen to these Affirmative Action detractors, you'd think AA was some sort of Bolshevik plot.

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JustDude
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby JustDude » Sat Mar 06, 2010 1:52 am

eudaimondaimon wrote:
AppsAbound wrote:
MTal wrote:Anyone supporting AA is a moral and intellectual degenerate. Just thought I'd throw that out there.



I am fairly certain that every top law school has some policy in place to ensure that they maintain a certain level of racial and ethnic diversity. I suppose that means that you would refuse to attend any of those institutions as a matter or principle. It's a shame, they could really benefit from enlightened views such as your own....


You're assuming that by AA he meant Affirmative Action. He could have just as easily been taking a cheap shot at you, AppsAbound. :lol:

/Also, don't feed the troll





He was taking shot on Anonimous Alcoholics

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T14_Scholly
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby T14_Scholly » Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:05 pm

JustDude wrote:
eudaimondaimon wrote:
AppsAbound wrote:
MTal wrote:Anyone supporting AA is a moral and intellectual degenerate. Just thought I'd throw that out there.



I am fairly certain that every top law school has some policy in place to ensure that they maintain a certain level of racial and ethnic diversity. I suppose that means that you would refuse to attend any of those institutions as a matter or principle. It's a shame, they could really benefit from enlightened views such as your own....


You're assuming that by AA he meant Affirmative Action. He could have just as easily been taking a cheap shot at you, AppsAbound. :lol:

/Also, don't feed the troll





He was taking shot on Anonimous Alcoholics


Learn to spell dude.

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JustDude
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby JustDude » Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:10 pm

T14_Scholly wrote:
Learn to spell dude.


I refuse to. Spelling is overrated as far as I am concerned

imisscollege
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby imisscollege » Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:53 pm

I am tired of the kenyans/ethopians always winning the marathon. they have an unfair advantage in that their cultures, historically, have always valued endurance running more than americans have. in light if this, i think that we should give the americans in the marathon a twenty minute head start this year. that seems to make sense.

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T14_Scholly
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby T14_Scholly » Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:03 pm

imisscollege wrote:I am tired of the kenyans/ethopians always winning the marathon. they have an unfair advantage in that their cultures, historically, have always valued endurance running more than americans have. in light if this, i think that we should give the americans in the marathon a twenty minute head start this year. that seems to make sense.


That would make a good stimulus for an LSAT logical reasoning question.

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Kohinoor
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby Kohinoor » Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:11 pm

imisscollege wrote:I am tired of the kenyans/ethopians always winning the marathon. they have an unfair advantage in that their cultures, historically, have always valued endurance running more than americans have. in light if this, i think that we should give the americans in the marathon a twenty minute head start this year. that seems to make sense.

Hey, this is kind of like the affirmative action debate but retarded!

imisscollege
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby imisscollege » Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:29 pm

Kohinoor wrote:
imisscollege wrote:I am tired of the kenyans/ethopians always winning the marathon. they have an unfair advantage in that their cultures, historically, have always valued endurance running more than americans have. in light if this, i think that we should give the americans in the marathon a twenty minute head start this year. that seems to make sense.

Hey, this is kind of like the affirmative action debate but retarded!


its a fine analogy.




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