LSAT correlates to success in law school

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ccs224
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby ccs224 » Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:19 pm

Jules Winnfield wrote:Furthermore, one must remember that less than 50 years ago, public systems were still officially segregated, denying blacks and other minorities the equal educational opportunities that were enjoyed and taken advantage by whites.


FTFY

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TaipeiMort
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby TaipeiMort » Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:36 am

So. In my opinion, for affirmative action to fully succeed in its aim to achieve minority representation, why not develop absolute racial sizes quotas for law schools? It seems like overrepresented groups should be cut down upon, particularly Asian Americans, Jews, and Mormons. They already overproportionately represent themselves. Therefore, send them to lower-tier schools even though they get higher LSAT scores and GPAs. Would this not better solve the problem directly? Even though some of the new students accepted under absolute racial quotas would struggle, they would most definitely pave the way for the next generation and proportionate representation. Look what affirmative action did for both Barack and Michelle.

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ConMan345
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby ConMan345 » Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:45 am

TaipeiMort wrote:So. In my opinion, for affirmative action to fully succeed in its aim to achieve minority representation, why not develop absolute racial sizes quotas for law schools? It seems like overrepresented groups should be cut down upon, particularly Asian Americans, Jews, and Mormons. They already overproportionately represent themselves. Therefore, send them to lower-tier schools even though they get higher LSAT scores and GPAs. Would this not better solve the problem directly? Even though some of the new students accepted under absolute racial quotas would struggle, they would most definitely pave the way for the next generation and proportionate representation. Look what affirmative action did for both Barack and Michelle.


Obama didn't disclose his race on his HLS application.

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Unemployed
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby Unemployed » Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:52 am

TaipeiMort wrote:So. In my opinion, for affirmative action to fully succeed in its aim to achieve minority representation, why not develop absolute racial sizes quotas for law schools? It seems like overrepresented groups should be cut down upon, particularly Asian Americans, Jews, and Mormons. They already overproportionately represent themselves. Therefore, send them to lower-tier schools even though they get higher LSAT scores and GPAs. Would this not better solve the problem directly? Even though some of the new students accepted under absolute racial quotas would struggle, they would most definitely pave the way for the next generation and proportionate representation. Look what affirmative action did for both Barack and Michelle.


Because of a small, inconvenient document called the Constitution as it was interpreted in the 1970's and beyond.

Can't tell, based on your username, whether you are serious.

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Jules Winnfield
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby Jules Winnfield » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:19 pm

TaipeiMort wrote:So. In my opinion, for affirmative action to fully succeed in its aim to achieve minority representation, why not develop absolute racial sizes quotas for law schools? It seems like overrepresented groups should be cut down upon, particularly Asian Americans, Jews, and Mormons. They already overproportionately represent themselves. Therefore, send them to lower-tier schools even though they get higher LSAT scores and GPAs. Would this not better solve the problem directly? Even though some of the new students accepted under absolute racial quotas would struggle, they would most definitely pave the way for the next generation and proportionate representation. Look what affirmative action did for both Barack and Michelle.


1.) Legal FAIL.
2.) There is no way to absolutely know/prove that new students accepted under racial quotas "would struggle".
3.) Michelle Obama is VERY accomplished and I'm pretty sure she didn't need affirmative action to achieve what she did. Of course it helped that she was a black woman but to say AA allowed her to achieve what she has is quite disingenuous. Have you even seen her resume?
4.) Like it has been said before, he never marked his race on his Harvard Law School application.

Point: You are wrong.

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RVP11
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby RVP11 » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:45 pm

Jules Winnfield wrote:Have you even seen her resume?


Ever read her thesis? :roll:

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Jules Winnfield
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby Jules Winnfield » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:56 pm

JSUVA2012 wrote:
Jules Winnfield wrote:Have you even seen her resume?


Ever read her thesis? :roll:


To be fair, I'm sure you could read plenty of people's thesis and wonder what the hell they are thinking/writing. And are you seriously going to discredit her and her entire catalog on the strength of her thesis? What people will do to knock down Michelle Obama!

The crazy thing is that she's probably a hell of a lot smarter than Laura Bush and even Hillary Clinton.

EDIT: *maybe even Hillary Clinton
Last edited by Jules Winnfield on Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RVP11
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby RVP11 » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:58 pm

Jules Winnfield wrote:The crazy thing is that she's probably a hell of a lot smarter than Laura Bush and even Hillary Clinton.


Is this going to be like your Jason Kidd > John Stockton argument?

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Jules Winnfield
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby Jules Winnfield » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:58 pm

JSUVA2012 wrote:
Jules Winnfield wrote:The crazy thing is that she's probably a hell of a lot smarter than Laura Bush and even Hillary Clinton.


Is this going to be like your Jason Kidd > John Stockton argument?


Is this going to be like your "there's no way a black woman can be THAT accomplished" mentality?

dontknowwhereimgoin
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby dontknowwhereimgoin » Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:05 pm

:idea: Reading thesis now (it's pretty underwhelming); she's also accomplished quite a bit.

prolyphek
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby prolyphek » Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:07 pm

The whole conversation about AA is pointless. People will never see eye to eye and the the premise behind most of the argument is false any way. People act like AA is contributing to a bunch of unqualified people (minorities) making their way into higher education, but the biggest benificiaries of AA are white women (something is doesn't seem like this thread is discussing at all), AA in this thread like in most of the conversations seems to be code word for black/latino.

The fact is most of the jobs that require higher education fall into the realm of the good ol boy network which has kept out minorities and women. It is not accurate to act as if white men are some how losing out on a bunch of opportunities because minorities and women are getting a shot at a few.

I have vistited to law schools so far and I have met very few minorites and women (especially minority women)who are professors, I think the vast amount of white men who both teach and practice law is indicative of the fact that AA has not casued some tidal wave like shift in the demographics of either the law field or the schools.

Look at the make up of judges at the highest levels in this country not a whole lot has changed.

Even if one was to believe falsely that AA gives people some sort of super advantage, the fact is once that minority or that woman or that minority woman makes their way into school they have to perform, and if by some chance thier status gets them a job in a company for diversity purposes they still have to perform.

I have watched this thread for a while in hopes that people would tire of the argument but sadly it appears that that will not happen...

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vanwinkle
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby vanwinkle » Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:35 pm

TaipeiMort wrote:So. In my opinion, for affirmative action to fully succeed in its aim to achieve minority representation, why not develop absolute racial sizes quotas for law schools?

Hard quotas have been declared unconstitutional. The Grutter soft-boost process(which is what gives rise to the current URM system) is the strongest form of AA that the courts have authorized. The same day, a harder Gratz system that bluntly gave additional "admissions points" to minority applicants when numerically evaluating applicants was ruled unconstitutional because it was too mechanical and therefore violated equal protection laws. Personally as an AA supporter I don't have a problem with that; I don't think hard quotas are appropriate or helpful as a solution.

prolyphek wrote:The whole conversation about AA is pointless. People will never see eye to eye and the the premise behind most of the argument is false any way. People act like AA is contributing to a bunch of unqualified people (minorities) making their way into higher education, but the biggest benificiaries of AA are white women (something is doesn't seem like this thread is discussing at all), AA in this thread like in most of the conversations seems to be code word for black/latino.

lol wut?

vampy
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby vampy » Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:58 pm

Isn't it interesting that in every single country in the world the order of success is roughly

Upper Caste Indians/Ashkenazim Jews
East Asians
Whites
Indians in General
'Hispanics' (since this term is so broad I put it in quotes)
Blacks

This is true even in countries where East Asians are heavily discriminated against and in the minority, like Malaysia. If you think racism is the answer to the poor outcomes of blacks in America, than how do you answer this pattern being the same in every country in the world? I don't know what the answer to this pattern is, but until you can explain this worldwide phenomena all your arguments are bogus.

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Kohinoor
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby Kohinoor » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:24 pm

vampy wrote:Isn't it interesting that in every single country in the world the order of success is roughly

Upper Caste Indians/Ashkenazim Jews
East Asians
Whites
Indians in General
'Hispanics' (since this term is so broad I put it in quotes)
Blacks

This is true even in countries where East Asians are heavily discriminated against and in the minority, like Malaysia. If you think racism is the answer to the poor outcomes of blacks in America, than how do you answer this pattern being the same in every country in the world? I don't know what the answer to this pattern is, but until you can explain this worldwide phenomena all your arguments are bogus.

I got this one.

1. To be fair, you made that up.
2. Racism is everywhereeeeeeeeeeeee. I was getting dinged for jobs in countries where there had never been a black person before.
3. Why would you separate Indians by class but not whites or Asians?

prolyphek
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby prolyphek » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:31 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:So. In my opinion, for affirmative action to fully succeed in its aim to achieve minority representation, why not develop absolute racial sizes quotas for law schools?

Hard quotas have been declared unconstitutional. The Grutter soft-boost process(which is what gives rise to the current URM system) is the strongest form of AA that the courts have authorized. The same day, a harder Gratz system that bluntly gave additional "admissions points" to minority applicants when numerically evaluating applicants was ruled unconstitutional because it was too mechanical and therefore violated equal protection laws. Personally as an AA supporter I don't have a problem with that; I don't think hard quotas are appropriate or helpful as a solution.

prolyphek wrote:The whole conversation about AA is pointless. People will never see eye to eye and the the premise behind most of the argument is false any way. People act like AA is contributing to a bunch of unqualified people (minorities) making their way into higher education, but the biggest benificiaries of AA are white women (something is doesn't seem like this thread is discussing at all), AA in this thread like in most of the conversations seems to be code word for black/latino.

lol wut?


Are you confused by the typo if so I apologize I was typing quickly or are you confused by what I said in terms of stating that the people who benifit the most from Affirmative Action are white women?

If it's the typo I understand...if it's the later I don't (that premise is easily researchable)

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:46 pm

TaipeiMort wrote:So. In my opinion, for affirmative action to fully succeed in its aim to achieve minority representation, why not develop absolute racial sizes quotas for law schools? It seems like overrepresented groups should be cut down upon, particularly Asian Americans, Jews, and Mormons. They already overproportionately represent themselves. Therefore, send them to lower-tier schools even though they get higher LSAT scores and GPAs. Would this not better solve the problem directly? Even though some of the new students accepted under absolute racial quotas would struggle, they would most definitely pave the way for the next generation and proportionate representation. Look what affirmative action did for both Barack and Michelle.


How long have Mormons been their own race?

vampy
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby vampy » Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:17 pm

I separated Indians by caste because they achieve differently by caste. What I am saying here is that there is a worldwide pattern (I did not make this up), of achievement by groups and of their subgroups. The fact that it is worldwide is what makes it interesting.

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vanwinkle
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby vanwinkle » Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:30 pm

prolyphek wrote:Are you confused by the typo if so I apologize I was typing quickly or are you confused by what I said in terms of stating that the people who benifit the most from Affirmative Action are white women?

If it's the typo I understand...if it's the later I don't (that premise is easily researchable)

I'm confused by the completely unfounded and wrong assertion that white women currently benefit from AA at all, let alone that they benefit more than blacks and Hispanics. Women currently slightly outnumber men in college enrollment, and that's without any kind of current AA assistance.

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vanwinkle
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby vanwinkle » Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:34 pm

vampy wrote:What I am saying here is that there is a worldwide pattern (I did not make this up), of blacks being imported to use as slaves and thus automatically disadvantaged as a class in those societies. The fact that it is worldwide is well accepted common knowledge at this point.

FTFY.

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Kohinoor
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby Kohinoor » Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:34 pm

vampy wrote:I separated Indians by caste because they achieve differently by caste. What I am saying here is that there is a worldwide pattern (I did not make this up), of achievement by groups and of their subgroups. The fact that it is worldwide is what makes it interesting.

But separating Indians by caste basically says that the wealthy, privileged Indians perform well. The Ashkenazi are a similarly insular community that has consolidated its advantages in education, wealth, and social status over generations. The distinctions you're making prove too much and suggest that the disparities in wealth aren't inherently based on race. Moreover, after googling 'East Asia,' if you think that the average Chinese person is anywhere high on the socioeconomic ladder, you're deluuuuuusional.
Last edited by Kohinoor on Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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flyingpanda
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby flyingpanda » Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:35 pm

vampy wrote:Isn't it interesting that in every single country in the world the order of success is roughly

Upper Caste Indians/Ashkenazim Jews
East Asians
Whites
Indians in General
'Hispanics' (since this term is so broad I put it in quotes)
Blacks

This is true even in countries where East Asians are heavily discriminated against and in the minority, like Malaysia. If you think racism is the answer to the poor outcomes of blacks in America, than how do you answer this pattern being the same in every country in the world? I don't know what the answer to this pattern is, but until you can explain this worldwide phenomena all your arguments are bogus.


LOL at made up stats.

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Unemployed
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby Unemployed » Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:37 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
prolyphek wrote:Are you confused by the typo if so I apologize I was typing quickly or are you confused by what I said in terms of stating that the people who benifit the most from Affirmative Action are white women?

If it's the typo I understand...if it's the later I don't (that premise is easily researchable)

I'm confused by the completely unfounded and wrong assertion that white women currently benefit from AA at all, let alone that they benefit more than blacks and Hispanics. Women currently slightly outnumber men in college enrollment, and that's without any kind of current AA assistance.


Theoretically, if you were to round up every AA recipient since the program's inception and categorize them by race and gender, white women beneficiaries would far outnumber every other category (duh).

It is probably one of the most confusing pro-AA catchphrases, since it conveniently leaves out the "historical aggregate" qualifier.

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Kohinoor
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby Kohinoor » Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:38 pm

vampy wrote:I separated Indians by caste because they achieve differently by caste. What I am saying here is that there is a worldwide pattern (I did not make this up), of achievement by groups and of their subgroups. The fact that it is worldwide is what makes it interesting.

Please stop.

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vanwinkle
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby vanwinkle » Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:42 pm

Unemployed wrote:Theoretically, if you were to round up every AA recipient since the program's inception and categorize them by race and gender, white women beneficiaries would far outnumber every other category (duh).

It is probably one of the most confusing pro-AA catchphrases, since it conveniently leaves out the "historical aggregate" qualifier.

1) You switched tenses (from "benefit", implying present tense, to "since the program's inception", past tense. Pick one and stick with it please.

2) I call bullshit. Give proof or you're lying.

3) Even if that were historically true it actually reinforces that AA is successful since they managed to transition from needing it to not needing it. But I don't believe that's the case. If anything women have historically done slightly better than their male peers in academics, their problem has been lack of access due to gender discrimination.

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RVP11
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Re: LSAT correlates to success in law school

Postby RVP11 » Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:46 pm

Jules Winnfield wrote:
JSUVA2012 wrote:
Jules Winnfield wrote:The crazy thing is that she's probably a hell of a lot smarter than Laura Bush and even Hillary Clinton.


Is this going to be like your Jason Kidd > John Stockton argument?


Is this going to be like your "there's no way a black woman can be THAT accomplished" mentality?


I've definitely never made that argument.




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